Ortmann-Hall of Fame

[Lou_1]

Indeed..there's something wrong here

In Europe, we got the EPBF (European Pocket Billiard Federation) but we don't have a HOF or something where oure top-players are included.

However, this is the link to the site: http://www.epbf.com/ and you can find usefull stuff there (player palmares, european ranking, information about Eurotour's, european championships, ...)

I would like to see that museum

Greetz.

 

[Marvel]

BTW, I love that name "Oliver." It's one of my favorites!

Here's all I could find that is publicly available. Please add to the list:

2007 World 14.1 Champion
1995 World Nine-ball Pool Champion
1997 and 2000 International Challenge of Champions winner
1995 and 2002 Mosconi Cup winning captain
2007 EPBF European Eight-ball Pool Championships

JAM

Lou added already Oliver's 13 Euro Tour wins (comparable to 13 Upa tour wins) and some other accomplishments. (European Championship Gold medals he has 15, if juniors not included)

Still, there's about a hundred other tournament wins, and most importantly TWO 14.1. US-OPEN WINS, at the time when 14.1. was still a bigger game. At 1989 he beat Steve Mizerak in the finals, at 1992 I don't remember.

No offence to Grady, but I'm sure Olivers wins are much more than his. About Parica, concidering his age, I would take him AT THE MOMENT to the Hall Of Fame before Oliver, but I don't know which one has won more. Then again, Souquet has won more than Oliver, but the hype Oliver made in 1989, has earned for him more fans in Europe, so that's why there was this comment from the german..

 

[Lou_1]

Marvel,

you're right... 15 times european championship gold if you don't include the juniors... (actually it's 21 or so than,..if u include the team-event he also won...) but 28 is the grand total.

About the US open wins: indeed.. 1989 vs Mizerak, but I think the other was in 1993, not in 1992 ...At least, that's what I find on his palmares, don't know for sure if it's correct... it's unofficial.

Greetz.

 

[Terry Ardeno]

I understand your thoughts.

When it says 41 times German Champion, is there an actual German championship held annually, and if so, what is the name of the event?

JAM

JAM,

Each year, in Germany, there is a 14.1 Championship, an 8 Ball Championship and a 9 Ball Championship. These are actual tournament, not awards given for a total accumulation of points gathered over a year. These are individual tournaments that are only open to residents of Germany. (There was a long thread a few months back on countries having their own tournaments that are CLOSED to non citizens)

And make no mistake, wiining one of those titles in Germany is akin to winning a title in Taiwan or the Philipines....as each country is a power house in it's own right.

Oliver Ortmann's resume & credentials are already better than several who are currently enshrined in the BCA HOF.

 

[JAM]

JAM,

Each year, in Germany, there is a 14.1 Championship, an 8 Ball Championship and a 9 Ball Championship. These are actual tournament, not awards given for a total accumulation of points gathered over a year. These are individual tournaments that are only open to residents of Germany. (There was a long thread a few months back on countries having their own tournaments that are CLOSED to non citizens)

And make no mistake, wiining one of those titles in Germany is akin to winning a title in Taiwan or the Philipines....as each country is a power house in it's own right.

Oliver Ortmann's resume & credentials are already better than several who are currently enshrined in the BCA HOF.

I am not saying that Oliver Ortmann isn't a great pool champion. To list German-only championships, though, and give them the same weight as other events is not a good analogy, even if Hohmann, Souquet, and others were in attendance. There are many GREAT players besides Thorsten, Ralf, and Oliver in the world. The U.S. Open is a good example of international talent, and if you win that baby, then that is, indeed, quite a championship title. It ranks much higher than restricted events, IMHO.

Sometimes, a poster's age may prevent them from realizing the great accomplishments of players from yesteryear, i.e., Allen Hopkins, Ronnie Allen, and others. I do not think some can appreciate the talent of players they know nothing about. After all, there is not a true pool archives, so to speak. Rather, there are snippets of news articles from the '40s, '50's, '60's, and '70s. To discount pool players from this era is something which is very reflective of a glaring hole in the history of pocket billiards around the world.

It's like every week or so, somebody initiates a thread Who's the best [fill in the blank]. When you read the replies, many times they are reflective of the person's age and/or geographic location. I could cite numerous examples of this.

Oliver Ortmann is very deserving of recognition for his many titles. However, if I were a voting member of the BCA Hall of Fame, I could think of at least a dozen or more players who I would deem as more worthy for induction. This is not to discount Oliver at all. If he continues his winning ways in OPEN events and not RESTRICTED events, I would definitely agree with many who believe he should be inducted into the Billiard Congress of America's Hall of Fame.

JAM

 

[Blackjack]

I am not saying that Oliver Ortmann isn't a great pool champion. To list German-only championships, though, and give them the same weight as other events is not a good analogy, even if Hohmann, Souquet, and others were in attendance. There are many GREAT players besides Thorsten, Ralf, and Oliver in the world. The U.S. Open is a good example of international talent, and if you win that baby, then that is, indeed, quite a championship title. It ranks much higher than restricted events, IMHO.

Sometimes, a poster's age may prevent them from realizing the great accomplishments of players from yesteryear, i.e., Allen Hopkins, Ronnie Allen, and others. I do not think some can appreciate the talent of players they know nothing about. After all, there is not a true pool archives, so to speak. Rather, there are snippets of news articles from the '40s, '50's, '60's, and '70s. To discount pool players from this era is something which is very reflective of a glaring hole in the history of pocket billiards around the world.

It's like every week or so, somebody initiates a thread Who's the best [fill in the blank]. When you read the replies, many times they are reflective of the person's age and/or geographic location. I could cite numerous examples of this.

Oliver Ortmann is very deserving of recognition for his many titles. However, if I were a voting member of the BCA Hall of Fame, I could think of at least a dozen or more players who I would deem as more worthy for induction. This is not to discount Oliver at all. If he continues his winning ways in OPEN events and not RESTRICTED events, I would definitely agree with many who believe he should be inducted into the Billiard Congress of America's Hall of Fame.

JAM

JAM

The comparisons are very good when comparing the German titles to UPA events. I have played in Europe and the competition is stronger than it is here - and I say that with confidence. Those tournaments are filled with a depth of world beaters.

There should be a universal standard when considering nominations for the HOF. This is where the BCA falls short of the mark IMO. As I said in my earlier post, segregaton is not ther answer, neither is setting the mark too high. I believe that players like Ronnie Allen, Kim Davenport and CJ Wiley should have a place in the HOF also, but I won't hold my breath waiting for it.

I also believe that people such as Joe Kerr, Pat Fleming, Peg Ledman, and Paul Newman deserve a spot in there too. How do we keep Newman out of our HOF? He's done more to help the game grow in popularity than anybody else I can think of. Think of the good press and positive exposure we would get by inducting Fast Eddie Felson in the HOF.

I don't separate players by country. I clearly remember the arrogance shown by the American players when Oliver won back in 1989. They called him "lucky". ROTFLMAO. 20 years later he's still lucking them balls in one after another. lol.

I also remember when Team Puerto Rico beat Team America. That alone spoke volumes about how far behind we were from the rest of the world. Around the same time frame, Parica, Reyes, Bustamante, Andam, and Luat set the standard for playing perfect 9 ball amidst the changing of the guard when Hall, Rempe, Varner, and Sigel hit the twilight of their playing careers. Pool became an international game with global growth and appeal and it enhanced the level of play.

The HOF must be diverse, and IMO they need to start putting more people in there. Make it exciting. Document the history of our sport and give recognition to those that have made it what it is today. There is nothing wrong with that. If we want our game to have global recognition and global appeal, we need to expand our HOF to include the people we have talked about ths far. I don't want to hear about how that will affect the prestige and honor of being inducted to the HOF... that's nonsense. It will enhance the honor.

 

[Terry Ardeno]

I'd say Ortmann is on the fence, but I'm leaning toward "no." His career, though solid, certainly pales by comparison to that of his countryman Ralf Souquet, whose resume includes two BCA Open titles, two Derby City Classic 9-ball titles, the US Open 9-ball title, a first and two seconds at the World Pool Championships, and the US Open 14.1 title.

Guys like Hopkins, Archer and Souquet are well ahead of Ortmann in the line for induction to the BCA Hall of Fame, or at least they ought to be.

SJM,

Oh my. I feel like the guy who sits atop the dunk tank in a circus and a baseball team is lining up to buy tickets. Disagreeing with you Stu is not easy, but I must interject some facts here.

To say that Ortmann's career "certainly pales in comparision to...Souquet's" is not an accurate statement.

Here is a head to head compariosn, but keep in mind, Souquet is a full time professional player. Ortmann is a billiard room and billiard supply company owner who only selectively competes in events when time permits.
Ralf Souquet - Born 11/29/1968 HR in 14.1=285
1996 World 9 Ball Champion
1996 Challenge of Champion winner
2003 & 2006 BCA Open 9 Bll Champion
2004 & 2005 Derby City Classic 9 Ball Champion
2002 U.S. Open 9 Ball Champion
2000 U.S. Open 14.1 Champion
5 time World Pool Masters Champion
3 time Europena 14.1 Champion
10 time European 8 Ball Champion
4 time European 9 Ball Champion
5 time German 8 Ball Champion
5 time German 9 Ball Champion
1994 German 14.1 Champion

Oliver Ortmann - Born 6/17/1967 HR in 14.1 = 326
1995 World 9 Ball Champion
1989 & 1993 U.S. Open 14.1 Champion
2007 World 14.1 Champion
1997 & 2000 Challenge of Champions winner
5 time European 14.1 Champion
3 time European 8 Ball Champion
6 time European 9 Ball Champion
3 time German 9 Ball Champion
10 time German 14.1 Champion.

Ortmann is CLEARLY the better 14.1 player of the two if you consider credentials in 14.1 tournaments. (Even if you don't like his style of pattern play )
Souquet enters most every tournament, Ortmann does not because of business obligations. Souquet's accomplishments should not be diminsihed, however, just because Ortmann doen't enter as many tournaments. But neither does Souquet's accomplishments dwarf Ortmann's. Personlly, I belive that both are equally deserving of the HOF.
But either way, Oliver Ortmann is one of the greatest players of this generation. He has, in my opinion, monumental credentials.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Hopkins

If Hopkins isn't voted in extremely soon, I'm going to lose all respect for the HOF. We all know there are some politics that have kept him out in the past, but you need to award entrance based on one's past performance, not whether or not you like him or compete with him.

His list of winnings are like Parica's -- too numerous to list, with world titles in nearly (if not every) game. Wasn't he the first American to win the Japan Open Rotation division? I think he won that and ran 150-out to win the straight pool division the same year. Maybe even the first to win the US Open 9Ball and world 14.1 in the same year? I forget, if he wasn't the first-- he's on a super-short-list.

I like everyone on the HOF list, but I can name one or two players who should have entered after Hopkins. I hope the BCA does the RIGHT thing because it's getting old.

Dave

 

[TX Poolnut]

Hi there,
yes the german championship is held annually, it's not open to everyone..
Only to german players.

However, that's still very very strong, because it's still a strong field (ortmann,souqet,engert,hohmann,and lots of other good players)

28 times european champions is also quite insane...

Greetz.

Something's not right about your stats.

If the German championship is held annually, how could he have won it 41 times? How old is Oliver?

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Something's not right about your stats.

If the German championship is held annually, how could he have won it 41 times? How old is Oliver?

TX Poolnut,

The German Championships are held yearly but include a 14.1, an 8 ball an a 9 ball division. Think our Derby City Classic. For example, Efren Reyes has won 10 Derby City Clasic titles, in 9 ball, 1 pocket and all around. Even though the DCC has only existed since 1999.
The same thing with the European Championships.

 

[Blackjack]

Something's not right about your stats.

If the German championship is held annually, how could he have won it 41 times? How old is Oliver?

There are championships held every year in 3 disciplines... for Germany and Europe...

8 ball

9 ball

14.1

Each title is regarded as a national title - and same for the European titles - separately regarded as Individual Championhips.

Oliver has won...
41 German championships and 28 European championships in the last 20 years or so - 69 in total, not counting the major championships he has won. Like it or not, those are HOF credentials.

 

[StraightPoolIU]

I thought Ortmann had 3 U.S. Open 14.1 Titles. 1989, 1993, and 1995.

 

[Lou_1]

Spot on Blackjack...

Each year the European Championships as well as the German championships are held in 3 various disciplines (8ball,9ball,14.1).

Combined, he indeed won 69... + 13 Eurotour's.. and that's as hard (even harder) than winning the European Championship's.
Just take a look at the field who enters an Eurotour-event...
All the great European players: always there. Also guys like Bustamente etc. had some entries in Eurotour's.
(Eurotour =Fully Open event, anyone can make an entry).
So, those 3 events combined.... 82 times Gold !!!!!!
Add to that some major wins (world 9-ball,2 times US open 14.1,...)

He's really a great player, and just saying 'great' doesn't do him justice at all.
But also Ralf is a top notch-player.

So let's not debate who's the better player of the 2... just include them both in the HOF..
They have done and accomplished much for pool in Europe and all over the world.

Greetz.

 

[Marvel]

So let's not debate who's the better player of the 2... just include them both in the HOF..
They have done and accomplished much for pool in Europe and all over the world.

Greetz.

Souquet has won more, but it's true, that's not important.

I believe they both will be inducted in to the Hall Of Fame, but maybe it will take a decade or two (maybe not, as there's not SO many more suitable competitors).

Now, at these year's, I would also wote Parica, Hopkins and maybe couple of others befo´re those two there.

For JAM, I do understand your point of view about the 'pioneers' and stuff. I do respect the old skool players a lot, maybe even more than these younger generations, but I believe that ALL those old skool GREATS, who deserve to be there without any questions, are already there. Maybe Hopkins the only question that "Hey, what's going on? Why is he not there?".
Ralf and Oliver can wait, but there's not many (probably none), who is outside the HOF and would deserve the place (by achievements) rather than those two (Ralf at least).
Archer is a Hall Of Famer in the future, there's no doubt about it, but he's happily waiting still (not maybe long).
About Ronnie Allen, it's true that I don't know about him much. I know that he re-invented the One-Pocket, but the stories I've heard, doesn't match with 'fame'. Talking about Ralf, he's a different story then.

 

[Marvel]

JAM

The comparisons are very good when comparing the German titles to UPA events. I have played in Europe and the competition is stronger than it is here - and I say that with confidence. Those tournaments are filled with a depth of world beaters.

There should be a universal standard when considering nominations for the HOF. This is where the BCA falls short of the mark IMO. As I said in my earlier post, segregaton is not ther answer, neither is setting the mark too high. I believe that players like Ronnie Allen, Kim Davenport and CJ Wiley should have a place in the HOF also, but I won't hold my breath waiting for it.

I also believe that people such as Joe Kerr, Pat Fleming, Peg Ledman, and Paul Newman deserve a spot in there too. How do we keep Newman out of our HOF? He's done more to help the game grow in popularity than anybody else I can think of. Think of the good press and positive exposure we would get by inducting Fast Eddie Felson in the HOF.

I don't separate players by country. I clearly remember the arrogance shown by the American players when Oliver won back in 1989. They called him "lucky". ROTFLMAO. 20 years later he's still lucking them balls in one after another. lol.

I also remember when Team Puerto Rico beat Team America. That alone spoke volumes about how far behind we were from the rest of the world. Around the same time frame, Parica, Reyes, Bustamante, Andam, and Luat set the standard for playing perfect 9 ball amidst the changing of the guard when Hall, Rempe, Varner, and Sigel hit the twilight of their playing careers. Pool became an international game with global growth and appeal and it enhanced the level of play.

The HOF must be diverse, and IMO they need to start putting more people in there. Make it exciting. Document the history of our sport and give recognition to those that have made it what it is today. There is nothing wrong with that. If we want our game to have global recognition and global appeal, we need to expand our HOF to include the people we have talked about ths far. I don't want to hear about how that will affect the prestige and honor of being inducted to the HOF... that's nonsense. It will enhance the honor.

Great post.

There's of course two visions, which both are understandable.
Mike Siegel was inducted to HOF at age 35. Archer and Souquet could be heading there already soon, but my vision would also be that those older players, who have TOURNAMENT achievements, or by some other ways have done great job for the sport, would be inducted first, rather than players who are still on their peak. That's how it has been mostly of course, but for example Earl was surprised a bit when he was inducted..

 

[Terry Ardeno]

He's really a great player, and just saying 'great' doesn't do him justice at all.
But also Ralf is a top notch-player.

So let's not debate who's the better player of the 2... just include them both in the HOF..
They have done and accomplished much for pool in Europe and all over the world.

Greetz.

Very nicely stated. I agree wholeheartedly.
My point on this thread was not to dimiinish "The Kaiser" as much as to defend "The Machine". Ortmann's accomplishments seem to be overlooked by many fans but a lot of contributors to this thread have helped set the record straight.

 

[JAM]

Souquet has won more, but it's true, that's not important.

I believe they both will be inducted in to the Hall Of Fame, but maybe it will take a decade or two (maybe not, as there's not SO many more suitable competitors).

Now, at these year's, I would also wote Parica, Hopkins and maybe couple of others befo´re those two there.

For JAM, I do understand your point of view about the 'pioneers' and stuff. I do respect the old skool players a lot, maybe even more than these younger generations, but I believe that ALL those old skool GREATS, who deserve to be there without any questions, are already there. Maybe Hopkins the only question that "Hey, what's going on? Why is he not there?".
Ralf and Oliver can wait, but there's not many (probably none), who is outside the HOF and would deserve the place (by achievements) rather than those two (Ralf at least).
Archer is a Hall Of Famer in the future, there's no doubt about it, but he's happily waiting still (not maybe long).
About Ronnie Allen, it's true that I don't know about him much. I know that he re-invented the One-Pocket, but the stories I've heard, doesn't match with 'fame'. Talking about Ralf, he's a different story then.

Your opinion is duly noted. I just don't agree with your opinion in total.

I would elaborate as to why, but I fear it would open up a debate which could turn ugly.

Speaking as an American pool enthusiast, some of your views I find offensive, but that's okay. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, and I respect yours for what it is, your opinion.

Thank you for providing your opinion. I stand by mine.

JAM

 

[Blackjack]

Your opinion is duly noted. I just don't agree with your opinion in total.

I would elaborate as to why, but I fear it would open up a debate which could turn ugly.

Speaking as an American pool enthusiast, some of your views I find offensive, but that's okay. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, and I respect yours for what it is, your opinion.

Thank you for providing your opinion. I stand by mine.

JAM

Jennie,
I did not find any of Markus' comments offensive, but they are extremely different from your views. There is a big difference between "American pool" the way that pool is promoted, accepted, and viewed in Europe and Asia - especially in the Philippines and Taiwan. If Keith were to go to Taipei, chances are he would need the assistance of armed guards crossing the street because he would be mobbed by fans. Call me crazy, but if I were Keith I'd look into taking a trip to find out if I'm right about that.

The HOF is simply that... a Hall that is to be for the very best players, and for people that have helped to promote the sport on and off the table. Not everybody can get in, but from what I can see - we're leaving a hell of a lot of the best out. That's not doing us any favors right now.

 

[Marvel]

Very nicely stated. I agree wholeheartedly.
My point on this thread was not to dimiinish "The Kaiser" as much as to defend "The Machine". Ortmann's accomplishments seem to be overlooked by many fans but a lot of contributors to this thread have helped set the record straight.

I'm not overlooking Oliver's accomplishments, but as a touring pro myself, I must say one more time, that since -95, the difference between those two, has actually been quite huge.
Before, everybody was stating that Oliver is better. Mostly, because of his charisma (he was young and confident - always heading for the win).
Since he won the WPC at -95, he lost lot of heart from the game.
Same year, Souquet won four Gold Medals in European Championships (9 & 8 & 14.1. & teams) and the next year he won the WPC. Souquet didn't lost his motivation with it, just opposite, he gained a huge self-confidense and since then he has been a notch or two (sometimes maybe five) above Oliver.
Only Mika and Thorsten have been able to show some skills, which could drop Ralf from the Top when talking about European players.
Just look at the International results from tournaments with big fields and all filipinos and others there.

Actually, I must say, that when IPT came, Oliver started to practise again as he saw some reasons for it.
At 2006, he qualified for the IPT from a very tough field.
Then, he won the 8-ball and 14.1. EC (lost 8-9 to Souquet at 9-ball at quarters (Souquet went for the Gold))
Then, after a dissapointment at NA-Open in Vegas, he showed his skills in Reno, placing fourth and making the most break'n'runs in the tournament.
If the IPT would still be there and Oliver would have his motivation, he could be better than Ralf.

But, then again, Ralf has the motivation anyway, because he plays for the game itself, not for the dough.
IMHO, even Olivers will to win is at the highest stage (Maybe with Sigel & Co), Ralf has still more heart in the game. Actually, that reminds me of Mike Sigel. He was the best but he lost his motivation, on the contrary like Efren, who just loves the game so much, that he will play it even he wouldn't see the pockets no more..

Now I'm already quite much off topic, but the urge to win (Sigel, Strickland, Oliver etc...) is often mistaken and said as "he wears his heart on his sleeve" etc, even I look at it only as an ego orientation and obsession. Players with big heart (Efren..), don't hide behind explanations or negative attitude when they have to face a loss..

 

[DonFelix]

@marvel: souquet has won more than oliver - do you have a good argument or a evidence for this?