Over-priced Cues - your opinion please!

[dave sutton]

the forum god he is refering to would be me. bc i red repped him bc of two comments he made about cuemakers robbing customers. then he made some completely retarted comment about dennis searing charging 2600$ to sign a cue and do a finish or something like that. i necely warned him if he bashes cuemakers he will get red rep.

he clearly has no clue...

this was in refrence to a dennis searing cue for sale

Did someone actually buy that cue? A couple joints and a signature for $2650? WOW!

Chris

and this was the only time i think i red repped him...

I think I'm gonna take a new approach to this wanted forum - any cue going over $400 gets a negative comment from me because at 20 times the cost of materials you are simply talking highway robbery!

To All:
I haven't weighed in on the DP thing cause it seems that it has all been said. But let me ask this, do cuemakers really think a cue (of any level fresh off the lathe) is worth $3000? Sure, to some extent, if the market supports it is. But really? And as for dale selling his cues cheap - if you got burnt by the guy then you probably shouldn't have spent $3000 in the first place. Particularly since the same cue you bought is really only worth $200. Finally, Dale isn't in business to keep the collectors happy, he's in business to sell a decent cue at a decent price.

Chris

 

[orangecrush]

Ok so I'll start by saying I'm no cue expert. Now that's out of the way.

If you don't like the price or don't think that its worth the value that the cue maker(s) is asking for then don't buy it. Nobody is twisting your arm to buy. Obviously someone thinks that the price is worth the years of experience, materials/tools, craftsmanship and hours put in to make a product that is top notch. if no one did then either the price would drop or they would be out of business.

Also, I don't think anyone should tell someone how to run their business. Their customers will do plenty of talking. One way or another. Heck if your gonna whine, you might as well include every other thing you think is "overpriced". JMO


Shane

 

[kvinbrwr]

Let me be clear on this - I am not trying to bash anyone. Someone on here has taken it upon themselves to negative rep me every time I even think about mentioning my opinion about cue prices and I simply want to know what the rest of the community thinks. If I come anywhere close to bashing anyone, you can read about it in "The Dark Side of Cuemaking"...



I like your list...Kind of sets things right for me. Mayhaps I spoke incorrectly then.

It's cool if you are not looking to bash. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and has the right to voice it. Myself, I'm far more interested in locating the folks that feel that cues are worth 4K and up than trying to convince those that don't to think differently.

As many have said, worth and value are determined in a free market by supply and demand. Guys like Searing and Barry make about 15 cues a year. What their cues become worth is totally about how many people want to own one of the existing supply.

There's less than 1500 Guses and Balabushkas in existence and those editions are limited, there will be no more. Their prices rise and fall strictly by demand for the established and fixed supply.

Ernie Gutierrez on the other hand makes more than 100 cues a year. He works as fast as he can, far more than 40 hours a week (not bad for an old guy) and all his cues are sold before he cuts any wood. His cues can't be overpriced, they all sell at his price. If he was making 100 cues a year on spec and nobody was willing to pay for them, then his cues would be overpriced.

Barry's waiting list was so long he stopped taking orders, his cues can't be overpriced.

Searing is what 10 years ? How can he be overpriced?

Hercek 8 years or more. Ditto,

Southwest 10 years. Ditto.

If there are folks willing to wait that long to pay their money for an item I don't see how that item can be overpriced.

Fact is, these guys should raise their prices. Barry for example, his orders at his pricing have far outstripped his ability to make cues (with his attention to detail and precision). He has no intention of turning out an inferior cue in order to meet the current demand. It seems to me that it would makes sense to raise his prices, some folks would drop off the list and enough would remain to buy his 15 cues a year, but that's just my thinking, Barry is clearly in it for something other than the money.

You can't say Searing is charging too much. Folks buy his cues and can immediately flip them at a profit so why doesn't Searing just raise his prices to the flipper's level? Again, I would guess he's in it for that art rather than the dollars.

Thanks

Kevin

 

[triley41395]

I think what you ment was all materials being equal.There are a lot of factors that go into the new/resale value.Being rare doesnt make it(or anything) worth 4K nor does a great hit.All this stuff goes hand and hand.If I made 5 cues in my garage who would pay 4K for it just because it was rare? Nobody. Along the same lines if I made 100,000 cues that had the "best"hit no one would still pay 4K for it because there are so many of them the would be easy to come by.I personally dont think there is such a thing as a collectors cue because I'm not a cue collector and if I spent 4K on a cue I would use it and I think the builders all build the cues to be playable.I think visually there are some cue that cost 500-1000 dollar that rival the very expensive cues but they are just not the same.A good example would be I paid 1500.00 for my shotgun but there are other brands that shoot the exact same shell for 400.00.Why did I buy the more expensive one? Well dependability, history, looks, and most of all I just wanted it. The materals in both guns are nearily identical but one is 4x more. I think these factors also play into cue prices along with the fact that any custom cue maker is not giong to be around for ever. I look forward to the day when I pull a $k+ cue out of my case and tell my grandkids about the maker and some pool history.Even with all materials being equal,If I could I would take the GZ over the lucasi any day.

 

[greyghost]

one way your right and another your off , golfers pay 2-5K dollars or more for a good set of clubs. I don't think any cue is worth 4k as a playing cue alone....once you get above say the 500-1000 dollar range your paying for artictic value. They are works of art, like fine furniture so thats where the price comes from. No your 6K dollar gilbert doesn't play any better than my weinstock sneaky I paid 400 for, but you can hang the gilbert on the museum wall. Its like a painting with wood...if don't want a work of art then don't buy one, because you will pay for it if you do. Go try and buy some nice cabinets from home depot and they gonna cost you 10k plus...you get a custom cabinet maker in there and it will be twice the price maybe more...but your going to have the baddest cabinets in town.

Grey Ghost

 

[ghost ball]

It's cool if you are not looking to bash. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and has the right to voice it. Myself, I'm far more interested in locating the folks that feel that cues are worth 4K and up than trying to convince those that don't to think differently.

As many have said, worth and value are determined in a free market by supply and demand. Guys like Searing and Barry make about 15 cues a year. What their cues become worth is totally about how many people want to own one of the existing supply.

There's less than 1500 Guses and Balabushkas in existence and those editions are limited, there will be no more. Their prices rise and fall strictly by supply and demand.

Ernie Gutierrez on the other hand makes more than 100 cues a year. He works as fast as he can, far more than 40 hours a week (not bad for an old guy) and all his cues are sold before he cuts any wood. His cues can't be overpriced, they all sell at his price. If he was making 100 cues a year on spec and nobody was willing to pay for them, then his cues would be overpriced.

Barry's waiting list was so long he stopped taking orders, his cues can't be overpriced.

Searing is what 10 years ? How can he be overpriced?

Hercek 8 years or more. Ditto,

Southwest 10 years. Ditto.

If there are folks willing to wait that long to pay their money for an item I don't see how that item can be overpriced.

Thanks

Kevin

Kevin,

Can I get your opinion on Tad cues? Should current Tad cues be worth the same even though Tad is retired? From what I understand Fred, his son, is making them now. Is it because the high quality of wood he is using? How many cues does the Tad shop produce? I believe his waiting list is about a year long.

Oh well, just wondering. I really like your Tad that is up for sale.:grin:

 

[kvinbrwr]

Kevin,

Can I get your opinion on Tad cues? Should current Tad cues be worth the same even though Tad is retired? From what I understand Fred, his son, is making them now. Is it because the high quality of wood he is using? How many cues does the Tad shop produce? I believe his waiting list is about a year long.

Oh well, just wondering. I really like your Tad that is up for sale.:grin:

As for value, ask me on Sunday after my Tad auction ends. I think Tads produce about 120 cues a year, I don't know if that has changed recently or not.

I'm not so sure Tad is retired, he's quite sick, but from what I hear, the high-end Tads (read Japanese) are still made by Tad, with Fred producing the more catalogish editions (although that all can be spin).

Two factors that make Tad pricing a little unpredictable. 1) So many go to Japan. The bit about Tads going to Japan should make what remains more valuable here (supply and demand), but there are so few that I think the lack of comparable sales to reference might hurt their resale market a little.


2) There is no clear delineation between cues mad by Tad from cues made by Fred. Its to the Koharas' advantage, but I think that doubt in the collectors' mind might soften the market a bit.


I think the cue I'm currently auctioning will be a bargain for someone. It is old enough and fancy enough to guarantee that Tad made it and its new enough (condition-wise) to be (soon) historically collectible. Although its almost a shame to not play with a Tad, their hit and feel are unique and, after all, cues are made to be played.

Thanks

Kevin

 

[knifemaker]

price

I am a knifemaker been so for 20 years. I used to play pool 15 hrs a day for years I've had Gus, George B, and many others. I think the price is for what you want. I had customer at a show ask me once about the price of a knife the way he ask was, What is this knife worth? I told him 10.00, he ask why is 250.00 I told him he could go to walmart and buy a 10.00 knife to do the job but mine were handmade and would do the job better and longer and not loose the value. He bought the knife and said he understood the reasoning I used. The same with a cue, you can go to walmart and buy one for 10.00 and you have a 10.00 cue. Buy one for 1000.00 and then you have a CUE not just a piece of wood.
Percy

MY 2 cw

 

[dave sutton]

Kevin,

Can I get your opinion on Tad cues? Should current Tad cues be worth the same even though Tad is retired? From what I understand Fred, his son, is making them now. Is it because the high quality of wood he is using? How many cues does the Tad shop produce? I believe his waiting list is about a year long.

Oh well, just wondering. I really like your Tad that is up for sale.:grin:

well its a point but when you know these makers they all have ppl working with them. how long has fred made tad cues. how many forearms did barry make for gus.... see what i mean. pete sr and jr. mike cochran and tim scruggs. jim white and paul mottey. all prob had thier hands in alot of the cues leaving the shop. from the shop of paul moittey...

back in like 2000 i was only doing repairs and collecting cues. i asked a well known maker to make me a cue. waited and finally got it. loved it. then someone told me this other guy made alot of the cues in the shop and the cuemaker just signed checked and finished them. i was v mad. i wanted only the guy i ordered the cue to make MY cue. so later i see the seconds guy cues at SBE. it was the same cue as mine. i was real mad now so i immed traded the cue. a few years later u know who them cue maker were... james white and paul mottey.

 

[tom mcgonagle]

It's a shame some of these cues end up in the wrong hands. Just because you can buy a high-end cue doesn't mean you know how to use it. The person that made the cue isn't getting a fair representation of his or maybe even her product. Put a lees than perfect cue in the right hands and it starts looking like a magic wand.

It's a business the cue-maker deserves whatever the consumer is willing to pay. It doesn't come with a guarantee the person, using it, will turn into a world beater.

_____________________________

http://tommcgonaglerightoncue.com

 

[Ken_4fun]

This one is easy for me.

TS - Tim Scruggs sneaky petes are silly.
Yes the play good, but it is a sneaky pete. They go for $400 plus, and honestly they are way overpriced.

Secondly, would be cues that will not hold their value. Guys are always saying here and other places, I can get this cue or this cue for $6-800 and it plays as good or better than this known cuemaker costing $1600. But when they go to sell it, it is a ***** to sell and they take a loss of couple hundred or more, and the $1600 cue sells, and either they make a few bucks, or at least break even. My point? Buy a cue (or house or car or whatever) that the market finds desirable or expect to take a hit.

JMO

Ken

 

[StormHotRod300]

this is how i look at it

Everyone would love to have a Searing, Gus Boti, Hercek, Tad and so on. but not everyone can afford it..... Supply and Demand that is basically it.

I mean I've had the chance to shoot with a Hercek and wow, the looks were unreal and it played awesome, but i was so nervous that i could barely make 2 balls in a row lol.

What was weird was, the owner and I got to talking about cues and he brings out a cue case and is like hey play with this.... And he's like yea its a Hercek and my eyes lit up And he said yea when i had it made it cost me 3500$ and it just sits in my case, I've used it like once.

For me the price of a cue isnt so much about if it's over priced, but the hit and looks and resale value....

most people know when they goto buy a big name cue, that the re-sale value will be equal to greater than the buying price.

Yes there is plenty of "new" guys out there making cues that look damn nice but thier Name isnt known by everyone, so thats why you can get them for 500$ to 1000$ and they play just as nice as the big named cues.

 

[horton129]

Cue prices

You can also think about cue price from the average cue maker out there (lesser brand name if you will) this way. So you want a custom made cue because you would prefer a unique cue that is not in the hands of every second player you meet in leagues or tournament. You want Ebony, some other exotic brazilian wood, some ivory joints and ferrules and a full splice with some inlays and some nice points etc.. nothing that looks too complex. Say your rwa meterial in the list above cost $400-$500 you have not started the work yet. you want mori tips and two shafts $300. THE WORK STARTS AND IT TAKES YOUR CUE MAKER WHO'S AN ARTIST ALSO 45 hours to complete your cue the way you intended let's say his time is worth $50/hr (very reasonable wage for the talen required to make cues) that would. what is our bill at now: labour $2,250 + two shafts $300 + raw material $400 = $3,000 and we are starting with pretty regular cue, so it is not difficult to imagine a highily complex cue done by one of todays masters be worth $4,000+. Regardless of playability there's the artfor of cumaking and to put a $50/hr rate on that is cheap. MHO.

TH

 

[oldzilla]

It's a shame some of these cues end up in the wrong hands. Just because you can buy a high-end cue doesn't mean you know how to use it. The person that made the cue isn't getting a fair representation of his or maybe even her product. Put a lees than perfect cue in the right hands and it starts looking like a magic wand.

It's a business the cue-maker deserves whatever the consumer is willing to pay. It doesn't come with a guarantee the person, using it, will turn into a world beater.

_____________________________

http://tommcgonaglerightoncue.com

tap tap tap.

tom knows a connoisseur and a player are two very different things.

one guy who plays in a league may have a 5k cue and a very bad rating.

while shane van boening is doing very well with a cuetec r360.

i picked up one myself and now my predator is collecting dust.

r360 hits very well and if someone steals it i'm only out a couple hundred !

 

[uwate]

art is always valued based on perception and reality. What people people perceive and the reality of what they will pay.

 

[hdgis1]

the forum god he is refering to would be me. bc i red repped him bc of two comments he made about cuemakers robbing customers. then he made some completely retarted comment about dennis searing charging 2600$ to sign a cue and do a finish or something like that. i necely warned him if he bashes cuemakers he will get red rep.

he clearly has no clue...

this was in refrence to a dennis searing cue for sale



and this was the only time i think i red repped him...

Man, I'd love to post pics, but as I said - I sent the cue back already. I figured after being hung up on and shuffled around the office I was done dealing with them. As for their side of the story, you will have to wait till Dan at Joss Cues gets the cue back.

Don't forget this one!
Dave thinks I was bashing Joss....What thinks you?

 

[hdgis1]

Careful man! One shouldn't think things like that out loud!

This one is easy for me.

TS - Tim Scruggs sneaky petes are silly.
Yes the play good, but it is a sneaky pete. They go for $400 plus, and honestly they are way overpriced.

Secondly, would be cues that will not hold their value. Guys are always saying here and other places, I can get this cue or this cue for $6-800 and it plays as good or better than this known cuemaker costing $1600. But when they go to sell it, it is a ***** to sell and they take a loss of couple hundred or more, and the $1600 cue sells, and either they make a few bucks, or at least break even. My point? Buy a cue (or house or car or whatever) that the market finds desirable or expect to take a hit.

JMO

Ken

 

[poohkiller]

My opinion...

All things being equal - Why does one cue maker get away with charging "$2600 for a joint and a signature" and another barely makes enough to pay for materials?

Generally speaking (not about cues but anything), the craftsman getting $2,600 has done something BETTER than the other one. Either he makes a better product, or he made good business decisions. It's no doubt that with today's equipment and available knowledge it is not too difficult to make a decent hitting cue.

In today's economy many-many times it's the additional stuff you get for what you buy, beyond the product itself. You get the general, common respect and other privileges for wearing a Patek at several scenes, and you get people admire your cue if it's intricate or scarce from the given famous maker. It is whatever makes you feel happy.

And if there is something that would make many-many people happy, then its price is going to raise. It's that simple.

Actually, I would be a lot happier with a 4-point Gus with no inlays than a 4 point... whatever. Yet, the 'whatever' could have the same construction, even the same taper and everything else. And if I can I'll still pay one zero more for the Gus.
With this I got to a point, I think: you pay for what you know, what you have information about, what you trust. You have not read about 'whatever' but you know there are successful people standing behind Gus, you know they like their cues because they are quality.

And when trust pairs with quality, you have a premium product which comes with a higher price.

Things holding their value or even turning out as beneficial financial investments is something I can't really present as easily, but you should consider that as well, when purchasing a ""piece of wood"" for 2 or 20 thousand.

Furthermore, when one pays for a cue, should they then expect that cue to be what they were expecting? Overpriced or not. Playing cue or collecting cue. (Funny there is even a distinction) Does the consumer have the right to be honked off when their expectations are not met?

Drawing a line between a collectable and a player cue is necessary, in my opinion. If you cannot or for some reason do not understand the reason for this, I am not here to convince you.
Yet any collectible cue can be a player cue, although there are a few cues that are truly worth of being handled as a collectible. They are the makes of another person, like you and I, but he has achieved something in his life that should be appreciated.

I wanted to add more, but who cares, the bottom line is that:

We should be happy that our hobby or favourite sport or passion has reached a level whereas it has a history large enough to create valuable things, it means that we have something to do here. We should be happy about cues being collectible and being expensive. And we should appreciate their value, the knowledge in them and not try to pull them down to a lower level, but rather motivate today's up and coming makers to INVENT and DEVELOPE to make it there, to the greats, therefore giving more value and depth to the sport we love.

 

[Murray Tucker]

Could you please name me one cuemaker that charges $2600 for a joint and a signature?

All things being equal - Why does one cue maker get away with charging "$2600 for a joint and a signature" and another barely makes enough to pay for materials?

 

[dave sutton]

Don't forget this one!
Dave thinks I was bashing Joss....What thinks you?

i never said you were bashing joss cues. if you notice i wrote i didnt even know about the problem with joss cues. for a new member you seem to be having ALOT of problems


you really have zero clue.

your stick to complaining about the joss cues you buy wishing they were searings and ill stick with the searings...

i never said a word to you. the great thing about this site is that you can come on here and say us cuemakers are robbing the customers and i can red bomb you into oblivion and its well within both of our rights... u wont make friends with any of the cuemakers on this site bashing them. so far the two posts i quoted that is exactly what you are doing...