Piloted Ivory Joint or Flat Faced Ivory Joint

It's not that I don't understand the reason for pilots, and why some still use them, I just believe that back in the day, it was the only way to accomplish what you spelled out in your post. Nowadays, there are, IMO, better and simpler ways to do this, such as a flat minor 3/8x10 or 11 pin. If done properly, this setup will always align the shaft perfectly every time. Un-loc type pins also accomplish this well. What I have found by doing repairs for about 16 years is that most pilots I have come across (even some high end cues) don't even come close to contact. My observation is that if its a wood pilot, the wood shrinks over time and then the pilot stops performing the one thing it was designed to do.
I personally don't use 5/16x14 -18 pins for the reason you mentioned earlier about the slop factor, to me there are better pins.
Just my thoughts.
Dave
 
qbilder said:
As I stated earlier, the pilot is for alignment. It's typically used on 5/16-14 & 18 joints where there is a steel pin going in to a brass insert. Those pins are most generally rolled, not cut, and as such have inconsistencies. Not only do the pins have inconsistencies, but most of all they fit somewhat sloppy in the insert. As the joint faces compress, the shaft will shift to the side of least resistance, to the amount of slop between pin & insert. A pilot prevents the shaft from shifting, and ensures it locks down dead center every time. Not only does it make the joint more precise, it also makes things easier on the builder.

By having the pilot center everything, the shafts can be cut to size SEPARATE from the cue, which keeps the cut concentric to center. Shafts can be made in bulk, without having to be machine mated to butts, and they will fit dead center on every butt the same builder makes. This streamlines production while adding a significant amount of consistency & repeatability. Without a pilot, the builder is at the mercy of how well the pin fits the insert. Those type joints are notoriously sloppy fit, and not all of us are ok with having misfits where the shaft/butt fit has a ledge. Yes it can be fixed easy enough by sanding shaft & butt together, but not all of us want to rely on that. We prefer to machine things to fit correctly, so that there is no need for such measures in the first place. This is a point I believe where the importance of a pilot lies mostly in the specific builders' standard of accuracy.

I use a big pin in wood, and it is designed with the pilot concept in mind, except that the minor diameter of the pin acts as the pilot. Same concept with the Radial. There's no convincing me that a pilot is outdated or unnecessary. I see it's purpose quite clearly. I don't know why some folks don't get it. I'm not here to convince anybody of anything. Believe what you wish. But for somebody to discount a pilot because they don't understand its purpose or how to properly utilize it, is naive. It's function very simply is to align the shaft to the center line of the butt. And it does so rather effectively, when utilized properly.
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"Believe what you wish." To you as well.

I think differently based on personal experience. 50-60 yrs ago you would have had a valid argument.
Today's parts are machined to such tolerance that the pilot is no longer necessary.

"not all of us are ok with having misfits", "We prefer to machine things to fit correctly."

When you say "we" & "us", are you referring to just the builders that use a pilot?
I've been building 26 yrs now and I don't have to sand a connected cue to make the jnt right.
I build my shafts and handle separately and they fit the way they're supposed to, interchangeable.
If all the pilot does is insure alignment, it's lost it's worth.

KJ
 
KJ Cues said:
I think he just did assuming those builders read posts on AZB.
What's more is that I'll second it.

"Today's pilot serves no functional purpose".

If you'd care to convince me otherwise, I'd be willing to listen (read).
'Name-dropping' doesn't impress me so let's stick to facts.

KJ
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As mentioned before, pilots make for better shaft alignment but I also believe they give an opportunity for better and more surface contact with the joint via a compression fit. Joint and shaft faces as well as tongue and inside pilot wall contact...

I don't have to "name drop" for my reasoning. :)

You can take that as you will and build cues the way you want. I will continue with my beliefs that are derived from experienced sources. Plus I like the look of piloted shafts and joints :)
 
skins said:
As mentioned before, pilots make for better shaft alignment but I also believe they give an opportunity for better and more surface contact with the joint via a compression fit. Joint and shaft faces as well as tongue and inside pilot wall contact...

I don't have to "name drop" for my reasoning. :)

You can take that as you will and build cues the way you want. I will continue with my beliefs that are derived from experienced sources. Plus I like the look of piloted shafts and joints :)
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The problem is that they are not a compression fit. I see piloted cues all the time, Schon, McDaniel, and others and they all have .01 clearance for the pilots. If they do not have some kind of clearance you cannot screw them together.
 
Brickcues said:
The problem is that they are not a compression fit. I see piloted cues all the time, Schon, McDaniel, and others and they all have .01 clearance for the pilots. If they do not have some kind of clearance you cannot screw them together.
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Tell that to Pete Tascarella.... Oooops... Didn't mean to "name drop"..lol

On his cues, the wall hits the tongue just after it starts to enter the pilot hole and continues with a nice snug fit all the way in...
 
skins said:
Tell that to Pete Tascarella.... Oooops... Didn't mean to "name drop"..lol

On his cues, the wall hits the tongue just after it starts to enter the pilot hole and continues with a nice snug fit all the way in...
Click to expand...



I believe that the pilot in Pete's cues probably does compress slightly going into the hole. It may not over time, but the one's I've seen appear to still be compressing.

But, to me at least, the real question is does it really matter. I've had this conversation with many cuemakers, both little guys and big guys, and opinions vary.

I've often said that a simple test can be performed to prove out one side or the other. The test would be to take a cue, such as one of Pete's with a nice compression fitting joint, and 2 shafts. Preferably it would be 4 or 6 shafts, but 2 would work with enough different testers. The shafts would need to play close enough that, when asked to identify which shaft the tester was using, the accuracy was an even split between all the shafts. In other words, they would all play close enough to each other that most of the time the players couldn't really tell them apart. Once you have that, you remove the compression fit of the pilot from half of the shafts. This could be done by turning down the outer lip of the pilot or just facing it off completely. Then perform the tests again. The players, or testers, can't get to see which shaft they are playing with, but are asked to choose the piloted shafts over the non piloted shafts. After a similar number of tests, the results can be compared to see if the players could identify the piloted shafts as piloted, or maybe identify the non piloted shafts as piloted. Or could not tell consistently which was which.

That's the only way to know, and it may take several different tests to really confirm it one way or the other.

I believe that the only thing a joint connection can do is to bring the 2 halves so that there is no movement during play. If that happens, and all other things like weight and stiffness are equal, then I don't believe anyone could consistently tell the difference.

It's probably not a popular opinion. But then again neither is the other side.


Royce
 
There's nobody doing a real compression fit on ivory, they might say it is, but it ain't.

Piloted joints were invented because of crappy screws. I would agree that there entirely un-necessary in today's world. I've heard this same opinion from guys who have been building cues longer than anyone in this thread and anyone mentioned in this thread
 
LGSM3 said:
There's nobody doing a real compression fit on ivory, they might say it is, but it ain't.

Piloted joints were invented because of crappy screws. I would agree that there entirely un-necessary in today's world. I've heard this same opinion from guys who have been building cues longer than anyone in this thread and anyone mentioned in this thread
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Against an Ivory wall yes but some use a stainless sleeve in the pilot so the tounge doesn't crack or blow out the joint... I still think when done right they help the connection between the shaft and joint... Ultimately, does it matter? Who knows for sure. I mean I do and I still prefer my cues made that way from certain makers. Other makers I wouldn't even ask to do pilots and still would be happy with them. Most of Keiths cues are flt faced and they play great so he's doing something right... :wink:
 
Hi,

I am a huge fan of the flat faced joint with the big pin.

That being said, I had a like new Szamboti (Barry) in my shop last week and the fit was perfect concerning concentricity on all three shafts.

I definitely love the way they look too. Old school sexy.

The flat face joint was around long before Gus built his first cue so he had choices and opted for the pilot. That says a lot the way I see it.

It is like comparing and big hitter like Sam Snead to Modern Golfers who hit 350 yard drives. You can't do that because of the difference in equipment. Today's pins are made to high standards on CNC lathes. I still like the feel of my old Persimmon driver and woods but they don't get the distance like my Taylor Mades.

Cue Making is all about making many choices. That's what makes all if our cues independent with different attributes. We all have our own formula and the choice of joint is just one item in the recipe.

Rick
 
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piloted

I've seen people miss shots with just about every type of joint. So apparently none of
them are magic. I go along with Royce in that as long as the faces are snugged up,
the cue will play as good as the rest of it allows. (Especially after seeing Don's
experimental cue.) A couple of points that i agree and disagree with.
5/16-14 pins with inserts are loose. Yes they can be, but not if you have them
made correctly. Tommy Migliore's pins give you every bit as tight a fit as big pins.
I really disagree with the fact that they are easier to make. There are extra steps in making
a good piloted joint. Does that make it better than a flat face. No it doesn't, but it does make it correct.
Same with a flat face. We've all seen loose flat face joints and we've all seen ones
done correctly.
Make what ever joint you want, but please make it well.
Heard of a guy who had a standing bet on you being able to tell the difference in
joint types. He had nondescript cues with the joints covered with masking tape.
He usually won the bet.
 
This is a very interesting thread. As i am having a cue make at this moment and have the choice of pins. I'm using a ivory joint and on the fence if i want to go with a large pin or the piloted. Pechauer is making my cue and their other ivory joints are a solid ivory joint with a very very small pilot for the shaft. Much shallower then other piloted joints I've seen.
 
As I stated Eric, there was a time when your argument would have been valid. The pilot was necessary.
One of the reasons that I stated the length of time I've been building, goes to the following.
We're told that the greatest advancements in technology have occurred in the last 100 yrs.
I graduated high school 50 yrs ago which means I've been around to witness 1/2 of that advancement.
I was working in local machine-shops BEFORE I got out of high-school. I saw the introduction of carbide.
Advancements in machine technology have taken a backseat to no other technology.
We've been to the moon and back since piloted joints were needed.
I have reason to trust today's machine-tool accuracy.

Fortunately you didn't feel the need to name-drop, THANK YOU.
My guess would be though that the successful builders you make reference to are 'old-school' builders.
That's the only arena that the pilot still exists. It's an 'old-school' carry-over.
An indicator, a trademark of sorts to old-school identity because, if there's no pilot, it ain't old-school.
Neither you nor I use the 14 pin w/pilot. Neither of us needs it. Neither of us builds old school.
Why would you be so adamant to defend a joint system that you don't use ?
I'll take the known advancements in machine technology and the guarantee that parts fit much better than
they did 50 yrs ago over adherence to a tradition that has lost it's worth. I'm not a fan of old-school.
Just for something to say and to keep it friendly, 'stop looking back, the future is the other direction.
As to my success, quite frankly, I'm not looking to become any more successful than I already am. Lol

KJ
 
I just did a conversion on a predator sneaky that the customer bought a 314 original shaft and it had a 3/8x10 thread, and the butt he had was a Uni-loc QR. I installed the insert into the shaft for the Uni-loc pin. The sneaky butt had a recess for a pilot, and the Uni-loc insert fit right in to it without any adjustment. It also was about .02" smaller than the recess in the collar. I measured the Z-2 shaft that came with the butt originally, and it too was .02" smaller. Why have a pilot if it doesn't do what they were designed to do? If the pilot is the alignment point, but it doesn't touch on the sides at all....WTF?
My belief, based on my experiences, is that some of the old school builders and companies keep the pilot joint going strictly due to the fact it's something the older people expect to see on a 'good cue' even though (ON THE PRODUCTION CUES MOSTLY) most of the time they don't even come close to touching and doing what they are supposed to do. To me, it's more of a symbol of old time/old school feel good to compensate for what boils down to a sloppy fitting 5/16x? pin. In My opinion, why build it if it serves no purpose? A properly fitting 3/8 flat minor or any flat minor pin or a QR pin does the job and with less to go wrong, because even though a pilot was done right originally, fast forward a few years and whose to say the wood doesn't shrink and now it doesn't do what it should? Or worse...it swells and now the person can't put their cue together...I have had that as a repair.
How many piloted cue owners actually take their cues out and measure and check to see if the pilot does what it should? Screw it down until the pilot is halfway down into the recess, then wiggle the shaft side to side....go further down but not tight and do the same.....how much does it wiggle? If the pilot is doing it's job, it should be almost no wiggle right from initial entrance of the recess and all the way down until tight.
I believe most won't pass this test....especially those that have been around for a while
JMO
Dave
 
skins said:
As mentioned before, pilots make for better shaft alignment but I also believe they give an opportunity for better and more surface contact with the joint via a compression fit. Joint and shaft faces as well as tongue and inside pilot wall contact...
Click to expand...

All that was great for yesterday's technology and "better shaft alignment" is your opinion. If someone cannot put a shaft to a cue perfectly today (they should hang it up immediately) but anyone can with a piloted joint. It corrects what you can't do. It isn't necessary today as technology has overcome the short falls of putting a shaft on a cue. If you're partial to it then that's a different story.


KJ Cues said:
I think he just did assuming those builders read posts on AZB.
What's more is that I'll second it.
"Today's pilot serves no functional purpose".
If you'd care to convince me otherwise, I'd be willing to listen (read).
'Name-dropping' doesn't impress me so let's stick to facts.KJ
Click to expand...

qbilder said:
Explain that to dozens of builders who are far more successful than either one of US
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Truth is, it has lost its worth in today's marketplace. It's not necessary and technology is so good today that it makes it kind of idiotic to make a piloted joint. Yeah, yeah it looks cool and has a technologically advanced appearance so you can show it off to your friends. Hey guys, look at what I play with. Other than that it's worthless.

Of course, you can't explain that to any cue maker who utilizes a piloted joint as that's what they know and how they build their cues. Do you expect them to say, hey there is no need for it anymore so let me change now after building cues for 30 years. Not happening. These builders have a winning formula, name recognition and they're not going to screw with it right, wrong or indifferent.
 
skins said:
That's some pretty strong statements there... May be you should have a conversation with makers that build piloted joints with a compression fit and tell them it serves no purpose...
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I have checked quite a few piloted joints on the cues I have repaired........ I measure pilot and the hole and have found very few that actually touch when the joint is screwed together...........

In my opinion, it only serves to lessen the actual flat face contact surface area..........

When I make shafts for people that have those cues.... I make the shafts flat faced and never had a problem or anyone that has noticed a difference.

Kim
 
whammo57 said:
I have checked quite a few piloted joints on the cues I have repaired........ I measure pilot and the hole and have found very few that actually touch when the joint is screwed together...........

In my opinion, it only serves to lessen the actual flat face contact surface area..........

When I make shafts for people that have those cues.... I make the shafts flat faced and never had a problem or anyone that has noticed a difference.

Kim
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If you read what you quoted from me you'd realize I said those who build a compression fit joint... So yes it does add to the surface contact depending on how long the tongue is... Either way is fine though build the way that YOU want...
 
One thing I like when putting on the shaft is the feel of bit tightness in the end.
One piloted cue that rocks big time imo is Mike Lambros - fantastic playing cues with amazing feel to them.

Paul Dayton uses mostly big pins but also have that tight fit.
I have a Blackcreek with a piloted SS joint that screws together really nice, full splice cue with a great feel to it imo.
Kenny Murrell also.

I know - no ivory talk here but this is also a aspect that I think more people like me feels, the "nice fit".

Regards

Christian

Ps One of this days I would love to get a Tasc:wink:
 
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