Player attendence this week--

Mark Griffin

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I am looking for some input on something that is confusing to me. There are 2 'major' events going on this week; GSBT 10-ball and 1-pkt PLUS Viking tour events in Atlanta.

As I can best tell, here are the number of entrants.

GSBT 10-Ball $20,000 add/$100 entry had 72 entries
GSBT 1-pkt $ 5,000 add/$???? entry had 59 entries

Viking 8-Ball $5,000 purse/??? entry had 67 entries
Viking 1-pkt $ 2,300 purse/???entry had 40 entries
(This was 'amatuer only' - I believe)

Both had mebership card requirements.

So, does anyone else find these numbers interesting? I do not understand why $20,000 add only gets 72 players. I find it ridiculous that both events were on the same days and only 500 miles or so apart.

Comments are welcome - actuall they are encouraged.

(I am aware of the 'relationship' between the two promoters.

Mark Griffin
 
Mark Griffin said:
(This was 'amatuer only' - I believe)
Mark Griffin

The above is the main reason. The second factor of course is that few people want to blow $100 to be destroyed by a pro player.
 
Mark,
Trying to get into a pool players mind?
What makes them decide which tournament to play in and why? IMO too many variables.

Not too many players can afford to take a week off from work and also expect to cash in an event that will draw PROS. IMO 72 players for this week long event is a good number, but I wouldn't have been surprised if it were over 100.

IMO the $20,000 added event is more of a Major Player event more Pros and other top level players.

The weekend event is more of a LOCAL minor player (local shortstops and some A level players). Players probably live in the Metro (25 miles or less) area and come in groups of 2 or more to the event. Atlanta has a metro population of approximately 5 Million plus.

Fayetteville North Carolina has a metro population of less than 400,000

There is only 328 miles difference between these two venues.
 
I wonder why people think that way. For $100, I'd love to play in a pool tournament filled up with the Filipino contingency, German contingency and the top U.S. players (like DCC). $100 for a golf tournament filled-up with Major-winners? SUUUURE!

How else do you learn and gauge yourself? If you can't afford it - that's one thing. If you can and you don't because you're afraid, that's totally different.

That's why DCC is so strong. For $100, you get to play the very best players on earth. What other sport can you play the best on earth for $100?????????

edit: well, close to 100 - you get the idea
 
I don't like to go to long tournaments alone, so my guess is that compansionship is important when deciding. I've skipped many a tourney because I didn't want to wait for matches or pay for rooms by myself, eat alone, etc.

Perhaps giving a special deal for two might make a difference?

Keep up the good work...we all appreciate it, even if we don't always show it.

Jeff Livingston
 
Mark Griffin said:
I am looking for some input on something that is confusing to me. There are 2 'major' events going on this week; GSBT 10-ball and 1-pkt PLUS Viking tour events in Atlanta.

As I can best tell, here are the number of entrants.

GSBT 10-Ball $20,000 add/$100 entry had 72 entries
GSBT 1-pkt $ 5,000 add/$???? entry had 59 entries

Viking 8-Ball $5,000 purse/??? entry had 67 entries
Viking 1-pkt $ 2,300 purse/???entry had 40 entries
(This was 'amatuer only' - I believe)

Both had mebership card requirements.

So, does anyone else find these numbers interesting? I do not understand why $20,000 add only gets 72 players. I find it ridiculous that both events were on the same days and only 500 miles or so apart.

Comments are welcome - actuall they are encouraged.

(I am aware of the 'relationship' between the two promoters.

Mark Griffin

I understand your poimt completely and sdon't understand one bit of it.

IMO, Mike and Shannon share the blame. People who are supposed to be professional shoul iron out their diffences and put egos aside. Ego's can often be quite expensive for both parties and the people who support them.

This game has enough problems without two guys who have been around forever and a day to act like infantile egomaniacs. Sometimes, who is right doesn't wiegh nearly as much as "What's right". Right now, this game needs a whole lot of "What's right".

I run a tour also. Each year I bust my ass as not to conflict with anything or anybody. For the most part that has gone well. However, this past year I pput on a tournament conflicting with one about 200 miles from me aginst a guy I consider a good guy and a friend. He knew I had done and never said a word. I didn't realize what I had done until that morning.

I called him as quickly as I coud and apologized until I was blue, feeling very cheap and dirty the whole while.

As it turned out, my mistake cost me the most by far. My event was cancelled due to no aprticipation and he had a normal turnout. Justice is a funny thing, but it was my mistake and I deserved what happened.

This game/sport needs all the "what's right" people can swallow right now. In this case, the balme is easy,,,,BOTH!
 
I believe Tom is right...there are a bunch of reasons. Another is that the economy has hit the stake horses also. As you know a lot of the pros only go on the stake horses dime. Johnnyt
 
Johnnyt said:
I believe Tom is right...there are a bunch of reasons. Another is that the economy has hit the stake horses also. As you know a lot of the pros only go on the stake horses dime. Johnnyt

I think the DIme is now worth MAYBE, a nickel.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I wonder why people think that way. For $100, I'd love to play in a pool tournament filled up with the Filipino contingency, German contingency and the top U.S. players (like DCC). $100 for a golf tournament filled-up with Major-winners? SUUUURE!

How else do you learn and gauge yourself? If you can't afford it - that's one thing. If you can and you don't because you're afraid, that's totally different.

That's why DCC is so strong. For $100, you get to play the very best players on earth. What other sport can you play the best on earth for $100?????????

edit: well, close to 100 - you get the idea
I totally agree,it would be worth EVERY cents.Some people would look at the draw sheet and see they drew EFREN and go "crap,just my luck".I would be running up and down the halls screaming in delight "I got Efren".LOL
 
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Mark, I think there are some telling signs in the attendence numbers you posted. Shannon's numbers for this tourney I would think are pretty good for a tourney started during the weekdays. How many can afford time off work to go to a pool tourney. Which brings to mind something I see happening for a long time now, which is "it all starts in the local pool room". Back in the old days players had an inner drive to learn and get better, and that drive was fueled by "desire", not neccesarily money. But, table time was cheaper, most times the good players got special treatment and really never payed table time. There was jobs around that players could bounce in and out of , but stay focused on their pool game, some just lived in the pool room and stayed with their parents. Today I don't see these things being there anymore, jobs are hard to get, rents for the pool rooms are through the roof so I doubt there is much free table time being handed out. A lot of things have contributed to the lack of "desire" I speak of, but possibly the biggest is financial. Today it might be a persons financial demise to try and develop the type of game it takes to compete at a high level, considering the amount of time it takes. So the bottom line is that it takes these up and comers to fill a field in larger tourneys, and these up and comers are fewer and fewer every year. They stay local and are content to be king of their peers, it wasn't that long ago where those same types of players couldn't wait to hit the road with their game, now its a "maybe someday" thought instead.

Secondly, most rooms are catering to the recreational player now, developing great players for most room owners is not even a thought any more, can't blame them for not wanting to go broke. So from here on out developing great players at the local level is going to be a tough go.

On the other hand, you would have to think Mike Janis's numbers were absolutely great for his tourney. 67 amateur 9ball players playing for 5k with a $40 entry, and 40 1pocket players! Mike has it fugured out with his amateur tour, lets give him credit, and I think there are really very few that woud have travelled to Shannon's tourney that are playing in Mike's tourney, if any at all.

Someone said earlier, how many times can a B player post up $100-$150 entry fees and travel $$$ to get their arse handed to them?

Kev
 
The below is copied/pasted from Mat90 on below thread... It looks like the Viking tour got a great turnout. It consistently gets more players than any other tour in the US, from all the reports we see on AZ. I wish I lived in the Atlanta area to participate in these tournaments.

Thread link:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=121136

292 Player Entrants at the Viking Atlanta Event (SCA-A)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

60 in the $1,000 added 6-ball - Horace Godwin
41 in the $1,000 added 1-pocket - Randy Jordan
67 in the $2,000 added 8-ball - Travis Dorn
109 in the $6,000 added 9-ball
8 in the $200 entry winner-take-all Friday Mini - Paul Song
8 in the $50 entry winner-take-all Friday Mini - Josh Hiliard
 
A better question is why not settle your differences, rent 1 venue, bring the events together to the same place with an Amateur and Pro event in each game. Maybe a doubles pro-am event could be thrown in too?

Might just draw a lot more people and my thinking is a lot more amateurs.

Just a thought,
 
Mark Griffin said:
I am looking for some input on something that is confusing to me. There are 2 'major' events going on this week; GSBT 10-ball and 1-pkt PLUS Viking tour events in Atlanta.

As I can best tell, here are the number of entrants.

GSBT 10-Ball $20,000 add/$100 entry had 72 entries
GSBT 1-pkt $ 5,000 add/$???? entry had 59 entries

Viking 8-Ball $5,000 purse/??? entry had 67 entries
Viking 1-pkt $ 2,300 purse/???entry had 40 entries
(This was 'amatuer only' - I believe)

Both had mebership card requirements.

So, does anyone else find these numbers interesting? I do not understand why $20,000 add only gets 72 players. I find it ridiculous that both events were on the same days and only 500 miles or so apart.

Comments are welcome - actuall they are encouraged.

(I am aware of the 'relationship' between the two promoters.

Mark Griffin

I went out shopping yesterday, and I was shocked at the number of businesses with signs in their front windows that read "Closed," "Going out of Business Sale," or "Bankruptcy Sale." :eek:

In particular, one sign that was a shocker to me was a sign on just about every corner in Rockville, MD announcing the closing of Champion Billiards and Supplies, a going-out-of-business sale, closing their doors after 31 years of doing business. :sad:

In the Metropolitan Area of Washington, D.C., as one example, work has literally come to a standstill for some entities until the new administration gets in. The majority of Congress is out, except for emergency hearings, until February. :boring2:

The grapevine or rumor mill, if you will, as it pertains to the economy in my area is that it is going to get worse before it gets better, but that after a year or two, things will get back to "normal," whatever normal is. Unemployment rates are at an all-time high right now, and will continue to rise, but I fear some folks' jobs may be in jeopardy. :frown:

My postman told me they are laying off 10,000 in the U.S. Post Office, and since he has less than 10 years in, he thinks he will be one of them. And some banks, I have read, are currently laying off 50,000 employees. The three big American auto makers are in deep doodoo, and if they go under, so too will those small industries that support the auto makers, the delivery guys, repair men/women, parts makers, steel producers, et cetera, et cetera.


Though I have a great deal of passion for pool, it would be difficult for me to come up with $2,000-plus to attend a week-long pool tournament at this time in my life. I'm not sure how it is for others, but if they're in the same boat I'm in, they too may be trying to keep their head above water until the economy gets better. :shrug:

So, since the OP said comments are encouraged and welcome, those are my first thoughts, but there's one more thing.

As far as pool players only playing pool if they have stakehorses, there is a ring of truth in that. I am pretty sure the majority of TAR matches, as one example, couldn't happen if it weren't for stakehorses. Though TAR has expenses traveling around the country to put on these challenge matches extraordinnaire, so too does the pool player who has to compete in them, with the usual travel, food, and lodging expenses, et cetera. :wink2:

Pool has been suffering for a long time, but there are a few gems in the industry like TAR, like AzBilliards Run-Out Radio, Pat Fleming's Accu-Stats, Mike Griffin's Qlympics, Greg Sullivan's annual Derby City Classic, Barry Behrman's annual U.S. Open, and the various regional tour events. The $25,000-added Joss Tour Turning Stone Casino tournaments come to mind, as well every single person who pours their heart and soul into these regional events, such as Shannon and Marge, Mike Janis, Tommy Kennedy, Tony Robles, Cece and Andy, Jose of Blaze fame, the Michigan Tour folks, just to name a few who come to my mind at the time of this writing. I know I am forgetting a couple. I'd venture to guess that none of the above-referenced are getting rich doing it either.

Pool today in the U.S. is a recreational game, to be played by bar bangers, social shooters, and serious-minded league players. Professional pool is dying a slow death in America. We desperately need some new blood to enter the arena. Hopefully, the CSI structure that Mark Griffin has promoted in recent times will be the change agent for this to happen. It will foster competition and allow the sport, if I may call it that, to become self-sustaining. :help:

Until then, pool is what it is, and those who can afford to travel the country or the globe to attend these events, whether it be on their own dime or a stakehorse's dime, are, indeed, fortunate.

BTW, next time you see Tom Gearhart or Eydie Romano, who promoted the annual Glass City Open and Windy City Open, give them a handshake or a thank-you for all that they were able to contribute to the sport. Though today, these fine annual pool events are only a distant memory, they will always be remembered by those of us who participated in them.

God bless professional pool players around the world. :smile:
 
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As has been pointed out it's clear that most shortstops, guys that would love to play with the "big boys" can't take a week off work from the jobs they are forced to have because pool doesn't pay enough to keep them from the poorhouse.

Catch 22! Can't be a pro because it doesn't pay enough so you have to work a straight job in order to pay the bills.. but.. you can't get quite good enough to be a pro because you have to play more and don't have the time because you have to work.

There's no answer for many guys/girls except find somebody to support them while they put in the time and $$$ to play REALLY good.

It does sound like comparing these two tournaments is comparing the proverbial apples to the proverbial oranges but the point is well made that some unity, like ironman tried to provide, is needed. (Ironman.. whoever you are, I have deep respect for the ethics in your posts!)
 
Mark Griffin said:
I am looking for some input on something that is confusing to me. There are 2 'major' events going on this week; GSBT 10-ball and 1-pkt PLUS Viking tour events in Atlanta. As I can best tell, here are the number of entrants.

GSBT 10-Ball $20,000 add/$100 entry had 72 entries
GSBT 1-pkt $ 5,000 add/$???? entry had 59 entries

Viking 8-Ball $5,000 purse/??? entry had 67 entries
Viking 1-pkt $ 2,300 purse/???entry had 40 entries
(This was 'amatuer only' - I believe)

This same weekend;
Joss - 9-Ball - $13,000 purse/$125 entry - had 80 entries


Both had membership card requirements. So, does anyone else find these numbers interesting? I do not understand why $20,000 add only gets 72 players. I find it ridiculous that both events were on the same days and only 500 miles or so apart. Comments are welcome - actuall they are encouraged.

(I am aware of the 'relationship' between the two promoters). Mark Griffin
In Post #13 of the Thread JAM wrote;
Originally Posted by JAM
Though I have a great deal of passion for pool, it would be difficult for me to come up with $2,000-plus to attend a week-long pool tournament at this time in my life. I'm not sure how it is for others, but if they're in the same boat I'm in, they too may be trying to keep their head above water until the economy gets better.
 
Mark Griffin said:
I am looking for some input on something that is confusing to me. There are 2 'major' events going on this week; GSBT 10-ball and 1-pkt PLUS Viking tour events in Atlanta.

As I can best tell, here are the number of entrants.

GSBT 10-Ball $20,000 add/$100 entry had 72 entries
GSBT 1-pkt $ 5,000 add/$???? entry had 59 entries

Viking 8-Ball $5,000 purse/??? entry had 67 entries
Viking 1-pkt $ 2,300 purse/???entry had 40 entries
(This was 'amatuer only' - I believe)

Both had mebership card requirements.

So, does anyone else find these numbers interesting? I do not understand why $20,000 add only gets 72 players. I find it ridiculous that both events were on the same days and only 500 miles or so apart.

Comments are welcome - actuall they are encouraged.

(I am aware of the 'relationship' between the two promoters.

Mark Griffin


For many players it's not about the added money. Yes, I know some players that will not go to an event until they've run a spreadsheet on the monies; how deep into the field the payout schedule is; factor in entry and green fees; and their projected expenses. But for many, a tournament is just an opportunity to compete. And so, there are a lot of us that just try and figure out which event is going to be the most bang for our ever shrinking buck.

Most pool tournaments are filled on the backs of amateur players that have no reasonable chance to win. For these players, even occasionally cashing is an elusive goal. Their time, entry fee and expenses, basically constitute a donation to the professional players in any given event. Many players just want a good time playing the game they love and maybe picking up a little seasoning and a war story or two.

Unfortunately, this concept of a good time at reasonable expense and schedule, is often in conflict with some of the larger more ambitious events. Playing in a tournament that starts its run midweek is tough for the working crowd to swallow. And when promoters start tying things -- like hotel occupancy -- in with pool tournaments, the additional time a player has to spend at a tournament, along with the unavoidable rise in associated expenses, tips the the balance towards not playing, when there is only fun and a good time on the other side of the scale.

For many years, I'd go the the US Open 1pocket in Kalamazoo. What a great event. A two-day tournament scheduled the same weekend every year. You could show up on Friday night. Lose your two matches Saturday. Be on your way home Sunday. That event would fill a 64-man field every year because there were a whole slew of amateur players -- who had no chance to win -- but would look forward to that event all year and religiously send in their entry fee because it was a great balance between the weekend scheduling, the reasonable cost, and a chance to play a legend.

So like I said, it's not always about the added money. For a lot of us out there, who just love the game, it's about the fun.

Lou Figueroa
 
Unfortunately, these tournaments have suffered from (1) scheduling conflicts and (2) being played in the middle of a weakening economy.

The GSBT event by all rights should have easily drawn over 100 players. Unfortunately, there are some players who were unable to attend due to previous commitments to other tournaments and events. I know that a good many of the European and Pinoy contingent were committed to the tournament in Japan. I don't believe that the event in Atlanta hurt the attendance for this event too much beyond about 10 players due to the cost of travel expenses.

I believe that had tournaments and other events not be scheduled on top of one another, both events would have seen numbers rise well into the 100's. Yes, it's a case of people working against, not with each other, but in this situation, I don't think the differences could be resolved between the two tour promoters.
 
Mark Griffin said:
I am looking for some input on something that is confusing to me. There are 2 'major' events going on this week; GSBT 10-ball and 1-pkt PLUS Viking tour events in Atlanta.

As I can best tell, here are the number of entrants.

GSBT 10-Ball $20,000 add/$100 entry had 72 entries
GSBT 1-pkt $ 5,000 add/$???? entry had 59 entries

Viking 8-Ball $5,000 purse/??? entry had 67 entries
Viking 1-pkt $ 2,300 purse/???entry had 40 entries
(This was 'amatuer only' - I believe)

Both had mebership card requirements.

So, does anyone else find these numbers interesting? I do not understand why $20,000 add only gets 72 players. I find it ridiculous that both events were on the same days and only 500 miles or so apart.

Comments are welcome - actuall they are encouraged.

(I am aware of the 'relationship' between the two promoters.

Mark Griffin


There are alot more rookies than pro's...
 
I appreciate the responses

I do appreciate the responses which seem to folow one or two basic concepts - which I mostly agree with. It is NOT all about the money and there are a lot more 'amatuers than pros' - but we have to have venues for the Pros or this sport will fall on even harder times.

All comments are good comments. There are a lot of viewpoints out there. And most are valid for some aspect of the game.

The goal is to help find a common denonimator that will keep pool alive and growing.

As far as promoters scheduling on top of each other, at least that is a problem that usually has a visible solution.

Mark Griffin
 
Mark Griffin said:
I do appreciate the responses which seem to folow one or two basic concepts - which I mostly agree with. It is NOT all about the money and there are a lot more 'amatuers than pros' - but we have to have venues for the Pros or this sport will fall on even harder times.

All comments are good comments. There are a lot of viewpoints out there. And most are valid for some aspect of the game.

The goal is to help find a common denonimator that will keep pool alive and growing.

As far as promoters scheduling on top of each other, at least that is a problem that usually has a visible solution.

Mark Griffin

I couldn't agree more with the visible solution and I belllieve nothing will get much better until everyone starts to put the game/sport first and put egos aside.

There are so many events each weekend anymore with the amatuer ievents and regional events and I think for the most part people try and not conflict with others. Still, when putting togethter a yearly schedule which I am now doing, it can be very hard.

Pro pool I also agree is vital to the games growth. WQhen I first began this tour, it was my dream that it would become a training ground for the future pros. The level of compeition has risen dramatically over the past five years, but it seems few have pro aspirations or any kind of map to follow. In most sports there is high school, college, and then minor leagues and then the big league. In pool, you work your tail off and then pay big entries, take a shot, and hope it works out. I hope that someday there is a plan or map for these youngsters to follow and good reason for them to follow it.
 
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