Players fight back...

While I welcome the initiative by this group of US players in trying to get the APB off the ground, I am struck by the fact that the general feeling on this forum that the Pool World ends at Ellis Island.

It is not so. There is a whole New World out there with Europe, Asia, The Philippines and now the Middle East producing world class players.

The recent World 8 Ball Championship in the Emirates was an extremely well supported event despite the fact that only one US player fancied his chances at this level. Unfortunately for Shane, he took an early bath. But the event continued to a credible conclusion.

I am not trying to disrespect the fantastic US players (many of whom are my friends) but I am trying to put things in perspective. There are player groups getting mobilised throughout the world and it needs the strength of all these factions pulling together to ensure that things happen.

I have spoken to Johnny Archer and he knows my views on this matter. I do support the concept of the PBA but it still needs some thinking through after the lacklustre Press Conference. I hope that this is taken as constructive criticism and not an effort to undermine.

Doug Gordon
 
cbi1000 said:
I really do get sick of reading this forum at times. I'm sorry, but the number of "glass is half empty" people here is truly mind blowing.

The ones with the money never care about who is responsible for bringing in the money. That is why players associations/unions get created.

This is a start, if the players stick together it will succeed, AND the sport will get better. You have to look at the big picture and commit to it.

I for one say it's about time and hope all the best to Johnny and the gang. I'm willing support the players and not watch or attend any events who will not comply.

I also hope cue makers and other vendors will join in and help the players out.

Craig
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Well if you have been around long enough then you'd know that an awful lot of "glass half empty" people were positive "lets rock it" people with the last three player's associations, in order, the MPBA, the PCA and the UPA. Don't forget that we also supported the WPA and the BCA, neither of which ever supported the players in all these tournaments that didn't pay up.
 
First I'd like to say I don't know a damned thing about any of this and that puts me in a position of being able to think from a neutral point of view.

Money comes from interest in the product, no matter what that product might be. There is little sense in developing a supercharged nitro burning engine when no one has invented the wheel yet.

I think their efforts and energy would be better spent in exposure of the sport to the public so that the interest and money are there waiting for them.

There should be a union of pool people developing a 24/7 TV channel to promote the sport like someone mentioned in another thread.

Marketing is the key to making pool popular. I mean look at the poor excuses for actors, singers, and musicians that pop up all the time on channels like Disney. They make idiots stars by the truck load. How do they do it? Exposure and marketing.

Pool needs this first and the money will also come in truck loads.

Set up the TV channel, market the product and then you won't have to try to figure out how to divvy up peanuts amongst each other. Much better than forming a committee for your lemonade stand when no one knows it exists.
 
I totally agree with the view about the TV network idea for a 24/7 channel for Pool, but in order for a channel like that to work and to be entertaining, there would need to also be a some 3C and Artistic Pool added in tho the mix up, as well as displaying tournament matches from Men's, Women's, Juniors and Team events :)

Right now, I'm on the 50 yard line as to what my thoughts are on the ABP, I would like to think that something can be done to help improve the sport for everyone.

Johnny stated that the association wants to work with everyone as part of a bigger picture... well, in that case... they should be speaking to all the players 1st and get the views of the players and posting up threads and polls to get overall views and feedback from the vast number of players in the US and around the world, to see how much support they really get and to also take note of what the players have to say and to put the overall feedback to good use, in a constructive manner.

If they take the time to get feedback from as many players as possible, then they will have a better idea of exactly how much support they have and also will have a better idea of how to go about achieving what needs to be achieved, and then they can move on to the next step of getting support from the BCA as well as Promotors and vendors, etc.

Doug Gordon has made a very good post and point though and I agree with him totally.

Many small players groups and associations will only have many small voices, whereas if all the players groups and associations combine into 1 large association, then they will have a much larger voice for expressing views and helping to bring about a very long and extremely overdue change for the better to the sport.

Jm2c fwiw

Willie
 
Bola Ocho said:
I agree. Let's be clear here. This is nothing more than a union.


Pool players are in a sense, the most delusional of all pros out there. Those with the $$$$$$$$ call the shots. Period. End of story. This has been the reality in business and industry and sports for all of human history.

They also misrepresent the power and authority of players in other sports. In all other sports, the sponsors and industry are the boss. The ownership rules above all. Players associations lose way more than they win when going up against ownership or those who pay/promote.


Pro pool players will continue to exist in a "battered wife" state of being. Taking the abuse, and still staying home with hubby. Stay at home with a husband that beats them or live on the street.

There's no big money in pool. The players have no leverage in this situation. They don't bring anything to the table. "whatcha got?" is the question. And all they got is the theoretical threat of boycotting events.

That is based on the assumption that without them, the event will fail. Did they ever think about all the events and tours that failed WITH THEM?


It comes down to a simple saying - beggars can't be choosers. It's not the players fault. It's not the promoters. Pool just isn't big enough to break free from this sleazy condition it finds itself in. You can't stir the pot and bust balls when those that pay out aren't making money themselves.
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A difficult "truth pill" to swallow, but well stated.
 
3andstop said:
First I'd like to say I don't know a damned thing about any of this and that puts me in a position of being able to think from a neutral point of view.

Money comes from interest in the product, no matter what that product might be. There is little sense in developing a supercharged nitro burning engine when no one has invented the wheel yet.

I think their efforts and energy would be better spent in exposure of the sport to the public so that the interest and money are there waiting for them.

There should be a union of pool people developing a 24/7 TV channel to promote the sport like someone mentioned in another thread.

Marketing is the key to making pool popular. I mean look at the poor excuses for actors, singers, and musicians that pop up all the time on channels like Disney. They make idiots stars by the truck load. How do they do it? Exposure and marketing.

Pool needs this first and the money will also come in truck loads.

Set up the TV channel, market the product and then you won't have to try to figure out how to divvy up peanuts amongst each other. Much better than forming a committee for your lemonade stand when no one knows it exists.
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I also agree with this post. It might be as simple as agreeing to get the ball rolling by maybe pilot type events where they are getting good T.V or such taking minimal pay for the event. It has to do with T.V. ratings. Is there a public willing to watch? Holding the events in places like the Casinos where Prize Fights are held. E.S.P.N should be involved.
It's about legitimacy and exposure.
 
As consumers we are responsible for the state of professional pool. I personally have boycotted the us open when I first heard of problems.

I also boycott brunswick for lack of support for pro events. The union should get gold, silver and platinum level business members to support events and we as consumers buy from people that are part of the solution.

I boycott APA for lack of support and as consumers and board members please exercise your purchase power and only support events, promoters and business that contribute.

The union needs small levels from everyone in. The business and not place a big burden on one major sponser. In exchange the pro players will assign players as their individual player representative and have lottery system for player and business reps.

Top ten are platinum level lottery selections
11 to 20 are gold level lottery
20 to 100 are silver level lottery selections

This system requires the player to wear their patch and make a number of personal appearances in exchange. It can work but I have a ton of ideas like this. But, we have to exercise our purchasing power and spend accordingly!

Kid dynomite

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
 
The idea us players can do this alone is just crazy! All of the top players need to get together to make this work, even then it is a very small chance.

The players all have forced loyalties to their respective organisations, it would be an impossible break for them to make.

Can the US players make sure Mika gets paid $60k in the Philippines, or the money in Dubai gets paid?

A small percentage of players having a say? I agree with Doug, it needs all of the worlds top 64 to sign up and that is impossible. How many of the worlds top 64 are American and where are the biggest money tournaments played? A fair share in America, but the 2 or 3 largest are not there..
 
3andstop said:
First I'd like to say I don't know a damned thing about any of this and that puts me in a position of being able to think from a neutral point of view.
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neutral and completely ignorant

do you really think your tv idea hasn't been explored numerous times over decades?
 
anyone here familiar with a modicum of pool history knows pool players can't organize squat

the youtube video with it's low volume actually speaks volumes (pun intended)

the biggest service anyone could do for pro pool right now is to get Kevin Trudeau to openly and honesty share his IPT numbers
 
I downloaded a $60 video editing software and made this on my first try. It's pool related too. Watch the devastating break my girl has. I sing in the back (Not well) and she is just being her adorable and hilarious self.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7rQwQqEYQU

My point is there is no excuse for the lack of video editing in that video. Shame.
 
This seems entirely pointless. Alot of loose words and musing on a player organization that is in effect saying they will do the EXACT same thing that Charlie Williams was supposedly going to do protecting the players and guarenteeing funds, and that worked out how well?

A plyer organization that only goes to events with guarenteed funds held in escroe is simply going to limit the number of tournaments trhat these guys go to, probably limiting many players to the point of doing something other then pro pool. And there is already a shortage of money in the sport for all but the small few elite players to eak out a meager living.

It is akin to "heya guys, I am starting up the GFPA, "Go Fish Players Association", it will be formed to help professional Go Fish players become more finacially secure." The issue? There is no money in Go Fish. There is not enough money in Pool either so a players association as good as it might be is trying to juice a rock.

I am all for going on the same rules every time in tournaments. It is great to look at golf and see how well the PGA has things set up but Johnny, the PGA is a professional tour, and pool does not have a professional tour, it is a fragmented sport with independent events. THAT is the critical problem, pool needs a honest to god professional tour under a single oraginzation and with such the issues with payouts will then get sorted out under tour guidlines.

You cannot make a disorganized sport which runs events by countless different promoters under no single banner run like the PGA. You cannot take a sport with no sponsorship money and make events secure and finacially rewarding like the PGA. I am not sure that these 3 guys sitting there really get the true financial issues that have messed this sport up for decades now. This players association is pointless atm, it is putting the cart in front of the horse, you need to deal with alot of other issues long before something like a players association is going to do diddly squat.
 
thefifteen said:
The idea us players can do this alone is just crazy! All of the top players need to get together to make this work, even then it is a very small chance.

The players all have forced loyalties to their respective organisations, it would be an impossible break for them to make.

Can the US players make sure Mika gets paid $60k in the Philippines, or the money in Dubai gets paid?

A small percentage of players having a say? I agree with Doug, it needs all of the worlds top 64 to sign up and that is impossible. How many of the worlds top 64 are American and where are the biggest money tournaments played? A fair share in America, but the 2 or 3 largest are not there..
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The net effect of this is going to be that a very small percentage of players will stop going to tournaments. Their careers will effectively be over.

Does anyone believe that Thorsten Hohmann or Mika Immonen are not going to go to the Dubai event if the Dubai promoters decide not to place the prize money in an account controlled by this group?

How about the Japan Open?

How about the IPT? Where was the UPA standing up to Kevin Trudeau and telling him to put the money in escrow? Who thinks Kevin would have told them where to go?

What sponsors are going to stand behind players who won't play?

Shane Van Boeing is a part of this group? How long do you think Cuetec is going to keep paying him if he doesn't go and try to get on TV?

It's truly a sick catch-22 here.

I understand the players frustrations but they had the opportunity to form this group after the IPT melted down with a lot of people - some very wealthy ones - willing to donate time and money to see it through. But the players elected to not do anything and so the promoters got the message loud and clear that the players would not form a united front and so it remained business as usual.

Mark Griffin has tried to help the players but they rebuffed him. This is a guy that stepped in and bailed out one tournament and has paid every dime on time all the time.

In the Philippines Edwin Reyes was murdered because he stood up for the players and warned them that the money wasn't there for Raya's events.

Then you have Johnny Archer saying that previous organizations have failed because of non-players making decisions?????

Edwin Reyes BEGGED the world's top professionals to join him and take a stand and what happened? While players like Bustamante and Reyes stood their ground other players were only too happy to rush in and compete for a world title without having to face the top Filipino players.

This is a situation of a little to little and a little to late.

The PGA was started and funded by department store king Ralph Wannamaker.

Pool needs that sort of angel investor to make any sort of player organization with any sort of power.
 
Spot on as usual, JB.

Barry has nothing to prove to a new union- his event has stood alone and relatively strong for decades...and not untested at that.

I honestly don't see what a players' org has to offer a world-stage promoter. Unless they are going to provide travel/ visa assistance then the org is not really in a position to guarantee participation of its members. Hell, a large % of US players can't even be bothered to go overseas to events the are invited to.

Aside from hassling the promoters about guaranteed money, what will the union provide now? The answer is critical to short/ long term success.

JB Cases said:
I think that they shouldn't be flexible at all. It's up to Barry to figure out how to get all the prize money situated.

I just finished watching this video and a couple things stand out.

1. they have no money.
2. they want to take over the ranking list ...

...Right now, saying to Barry Behrman or Barry Hearn that they have to put the money in escrow before hand or 12 players won't show up is going to be met with major disappointment.

I really really really really HOPE I AM WRONG!
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I wish them all luck. They will need it. The only prediction I will make is that Johnny won't win any tournaments while he is head of this new players association.
 
jay helfert said:
I wish them all luck. They will need it. The only prediction I will make is that Johnny won't win any tournaments while he is head of this new players association.
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That alone should help the other players to join and keep JA in office. I hear they also want to vote SVB and Mika in top positions. Johnnyt
 
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