Players today are better
- Thread starter Johnnyt
- Start date
> I have to respectfully disagree with some of the ideas posted here.
Playing traditional winner-breaks 9-ball,because of the break,today's generation may be more "effective" playing,against guys like Varner,Hall,and Sigel. Those guys are going to make faw fewer unforced errors,but may not get the number of quality innings needed to win. The best player doesn't always HAVE to win playing in this format,especially in tournaments. I think the cloth is a huge factor.
The players of yesteryear,however,would destroy everyone with the exception of Hohmann and the top Filipinos on tables with the old napped cloth. Even in shorter races,things like muscling the cue ball to accomplish position would come into play,and the younger crowd would be LOST.
I have ALL the respect in the world for what SVB has done in the last couple years. With that being said,just how much further down can the overall American scene go when he's the best player in the country,with 15 other guys running around this planet that play better?
Back when Buddy was in his prime,you couldn't say that. Same for Sigel,Varner,Archer,and Strickland.
To put it another way,take an old-schooler like Harold Worst. A great tournament player,and far better gambler. He would absolutely MANHANDLE SVB or Alex playing on even modern equipment,I think. Same goes for Buddy in the 70's,Sigel in the 80's,Earl,Efren or Johnny in the 90's,etc.
I am also a big believer in what the older crowd said was the key to long-term greatness,versatility. Varner,Hopkins,Sigel,Rempe and Hall have all won signifigant titles playing 8-ball,14.1,one pocket,and banks.
Today's players,with notable exceptions,seem to be specializing in just 2 or even 1 specific game,some form of short-rack rotation,and usually but not always one pocket.
I honestly believe if you took a player such as Hennessee,or SVB,and sent them into one of the loaded rooms like you saw in NYC back in the 60's,with guys like Eufemia and Ervolino,before long both of them would be looking for an exit. The guys that were in the inner-circle of elite level competition back then might not have been as naturally "gifted" as SVB or Henny,but were way more well-rounded. Things that might affect Henny mentally wouldn't phase a player like Ervolino,or Mizerak,Varner,etc.
The general theme of today's game is stand around and hash out every concievable detail about a game,then decide not to play,rather than "get your ass up here and play some kid". The guys back then were "tougher". In this respect,the players now would have little chance IMO. Tommy D.
Playing traditional winner-breaks 9-ball,because of the break,today's generation may be more "effective" playing,against guys like Varner,Hall,and Sigel. Those guys are going to make faw fewer unforced errors,but may not get the number of quality innings needed to win. The best player doesn't always HAVE to win playing in this format,especially in tournaments. I think the cloth is a huge factor.
The players of yesteryear,however,would destroy everyone with the exception of Hohmann and the top Filipinos on tables with the old napped cloth. Even in shorter races,things like muscling the cue ball to accomplish position would come into play,and the younger crowd would be LOST.
I have ALL the respect in the world for what SVB has done in the last couple years. With that being said,just how much further down can the overall American scene go when he's the best player in the country,with 15 other guys running around this planet that play better?
Back when Buddy was in his prime,you couldn't say that. Same for Sigel,Varner,Archer,and Strickland.
To put it another way,take an old-schooler like Harold Worst. A great tournament player,and far better gambler. He would absolutely MANHANDLE SVB or Alex playing on even modern equipment,I think. Same goes for Buddy in the 70's,Sigel in the 80's,Earl,Efren or Johnny in the 90's,etc.
I am also a big believer in what the older crowd said was the key to long-term greatness,versatility. Varner,Hopkins,Sigel,Rempe and Hall have all won signifigant titles playing 8-ball,14.1,one pocket,and banks.
Today's players,with notable exceptions,seem to be specializing in just 2 or even 1 specific game,some form of short-rack rotation,and usually but not always one pocket.
I honestly believe if you took a player such as Hennessee,or SVB,and sent them into one of the loaded rooms like you saw in NYC back in the 60's,with guys like Eufemia and Ervolino,before long both of them would be looking for an exit. The guys that were in the inner-circle of elite level competition back then might not have been as naturally "gifted" as SVB or Henny,but were way more well-rounded. Things that might affect Henny mentally wouldn't phase a player like Ervolino,or Mizerak,Varner,etc.
The general theme of today's game is stand around and hash out every concievable detail about a game,then decide not to play,rather than "get your ass up here and play some kid". The guys back then were "tougher". In this respect,the players now would have little chance IMO. Tommy D.
Could Joe Lewis beat Ali? could Ali beat Tyson? is Barry Bonds better than Hank Arron? is Hank Arron better than Babe Ruth?
its an age old argument and can be applied to any sport.
look at it from the other side
If Johnny Archer was born in 1920 would he still have become world champion?
There is no answer... we will NEVER know.
3 man ring game 15 ball rotation..... Mosconi as he was in the 40's... Mizerak as he was in the 70's. and Reyes as he was in the 80's.
who wins???
we will never know... but if you could pull off that match up you would see the best pool in history..
I'd guarantee that.
its an age old argument and can be applied to any sport.
look at it from the other side
If Johnny Archer was born in 1920 would he still have become world champion?
There is no answer... we will NEVER know.
3 man ring game 15 ball rotation..... Mosconi as he was in the 40's... Mizerak as he was in the 70's. and Reyes as he was in the 80's.
who wins???
we will never know... but if you could pull off that match up you would see the best pool in history..
I'd guarantee that.
Individuals DRIVEN to be the best... will become the best.. in all things.. if Mosconni had to do a little better to be the best today... HE WOULD.. if Archer has to do a little less to be the best in the 40's.. He would have done enough...
when dealing in "the best in the world" you always end up with the guy willing to reach just a little bit farther than the last guy.
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants."
Isaac Newton
when dealing in "the best in the world" you always end up with the guy willing to reach just a little bit farther than the last guy.
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants."
Isaac Newton
Tommy-D said:
Very thoughtful and interesting post. But I have to agree more with softshot to the extent that no one could ever or will ever know. That suggests that opinions ought to be more in the "IMHO" vein than being quite so absolute as your post came across.
We can debate all day regarding equipment...especially cushions and cloth but there simply is no way to PROVE which is more or less difficult to play on without submitted the 20 top players to practice on 1940 Brunswicks for several years and of course, that isn't going to happen.
Therefore, the relative easy of the equipment is and will always be just a debate with no winner.
Finally, with all due respect to Hennessy, I don't know why he would be mentioned in the same breath with the proven world champions you mentioned. He can catch a gear and play JAM UP but to be a true champion, you have to be able to do that consistently and to keep your emotions in check...he never has and unfortunately, probably never will.
Regards,
Jim
PS: Re: SVB, as I pointed out in another post...be a little patient. He's 24 years old and won a "major" at a much younger age than Buddy, Willie and many other legendary champions. Two if you include the 10 Ball event. Personally, I'm not convinced he will join the ranks of the all-time greats but the point is that it is too early to be convinced...one way or the others.
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Tommy-D said:
you only climb as high as the mountain top... no higher..
take any player from any period.... he climbs to the top of the mountain... there is no where else to go. driven people will drivea little further than the last guy.
every player mentioned in this entire thread is/was far better than most of us will ever be.
not everyone reaches the top of the mountain.
Today's players have had so many more years of increased achievement and pool history that they have been able to erase many of the subconscious mental barriers that someone from an era say 50 years ago would likely have.PoolBum said:
cool thread with some great thoughts!
As far as the cloth goes, I feel it's easier to play on good clean slow cloth...why?, because it forces you to stroke the ball harder keeping the mechanics of your stroke working smoother. Fast cloth can force you to soft stroke some shots which can magnify flaws. I am 41 and played on GC's with slow cloth for maybe 10 years of my early play. Now when I get on slow cloth I fall into stroke very quickly.
Are there more top speed players today?, well I think if you figured it by population it might be about equal. There are a lot more people alive and living longer today then years ago, so that has to figure into it. I would also argue there were more pool rooms open from the 1920's into the 1960's then now, so there should have been more people playing the game compared to the population.
Players today have the opportunity to learn VERY quickly. Years ago you would see a young kid playing great and you just knew his family owned a pool room, or is the kid of a Champion. Today kids have the chance to learn everything they need to know sitting in front of the computer.....not handing money over gambling. I know there are more top flight players under 25 today then EVER! did you all see the young crowd at the Reno Open? MAN those kids can play!
The argument of the old crew could whip up on these kids today is silly at best because you never want to admit when your childhood hero gets beat. That argument will go on forever, but for anyone to say SVB isn't in the same boat as ANY top flight player can just go talk to Earl, or listen to Earls comments AFTER his 100 game set with SVB....
As far as the cloth goes, I feel it's easier to play on good clean slow cloth...why?, because it forces you to stroke the ball harder keeping the mechanics of your stroke working smoother. Fast cloth can force you to soft stroke some shots which can magnify flaws. I am 41 and played on GC's with slow cloth for maybe 10 years of my early play. Now when I get on slow cloth I fall into stroke very quickly.
Are there more top speed players today?, well I think if you figured it by population it might be about equal. There are a lot more people alive and living longer today then years ago, so that has to figure into it. I would also argue there were more pool rooms open from the 1920's into the 1960's then now, so there should have been more people playing the game compared to the population.
Players today have the opportunity to learn VERY quickly. Years ago you would see a young kid playing great and you just knew his family owned a pool room, or is the kid of a Champion. Today kids have the chance to learn everything they need to know sitting in front of the computer.....not handing money over gambling. I know there are more top flight players under 25 today then EVER! did you all see the young crowd at the Reno Open? MAN those kids can play!
The argument of the old crew could whip up on these kids today is silly at best because you never want to admit when your childhood hero gets beat. That argument will go on forever, but for anyone to say SVB isn't in the same boat as ANY top flight player can just go talk to Earl, or listen to Earls comments AFTER his 100 game set with SVB....
I too think that all the info and instuctors out there now has a lot to do with the amount of good player now. In the old days if some pro take a liking to you,your family had a poolroom, or someone in the family was a pro...you took forever to learn.
I never meant that the Mosconi's and the like wouldn't be champions today too. It's just that about the top 100 players of today are better than the top 100 of 50 years ago IMO. This thread has a lot of good comments on it thanks. Johnnyt
I never meant that the Mosconi's and the like wouldn't be champions today too. It's just that about the top 100 players of today are better than the top 100 of 50 years ago IMO. This thread has a lot of good comments on it thanks. Johnnyt
Agreed!
When I first saw this thread, I was thinking "uh-oh!, Here comes a flame war with name calling and arguments that will never be settled." When I got to the bottom, I felt really good about the people in this forum, who can agree or disagree and keep it civil. The respect shown to each other in this thread is what makes it different from almost every other forum on the net, and that's half the reason I come to AZ almost every day.
Gerry said:
When I first saw this thread, I was thinking "uh-oh!, Here comes a flame war with name calling and arguments that will never be settled." When I got to the bottom, I felt really good about the people in this forum, who can agree or disagree and keep it civil. The respect shown to each other in this thread is what makes it different from almost every other forum on the net, and that's half the reason I come to AZ almost every day.
hi
my two cents.todays best are not better or worse than yesterdays best ,there is just alot more of us.and for those who say the tables today are easier ,your kidding right.in the old days a match of say 900 accustats was a great score playing 9ball on bigger pockets .today the best players are scoring that high playing tenball on a diamond. someone said buddy hall and harold worst would manhandle svb,or alex pag.if you brought buddy and harold back through time to play todays best it would take them a little while to adjust to different rules cloth break etc etc but trust me they would do just fine.because they were great players.same for alex and shane, they went back in time they could figure out how to play rollout on nap cloth trust me.the only difference is alex and shane would be looking around the room and high fiveing each other ,you know why.because they would say wow there is only fifteen great players in this 64 man tourney instead of 15 asians,15 europeans,and 30 more great players from around the world who never hardly miss a ball and break 30 mph.ive played rollout on nap cloth and believe me its a hanger to runout on compared to a boingy,tight diamond table.also the things that made guys like buddy and the other pros back then way smarter than everyone else is common knowledge now.trust me 50 years from now running 400 at 14.1 will still be very tough and rare,but there will most likely be 100 players capable of doing it instead of say 30 nowadays.
my two cents.todays best are not better or worse than yesterdays best ,there is just alot more of us.and for those who say the tables today are easier ,your kidding right.in the old days a match of say 900 accustats was a great score playing 9ball on bigger pockets .today the best players are scoring that high playing tenball on a diamond. someone said buddy hall and harold worst would manhandle svb,or alex pag.if you brought buddy and harold back through time to play todays best it would take them a little while to adjust to different rules cloth break etc etc but trust me they would do just fine.because they were great players.same for alex and shane, they went back in time they could figure out how to play rollout on nap cloth trust me.the only difference is alex and shane would be looking around the room and high fiveing each other ,you know why.because they would say wow there is only fifteen great players in this 64 man tourney instead of 15 asians,15 europeans,and 30 more great players from around the world who never hardly miss a ball and break 30 mph.ive played rollout on nap cloth and believe me its a hanger to runout on compared to a boingy,tight diamond table.also the things that made guys like buddy and the other pros back then way smarter than everyone else is common knowledge now.trust me 50 years from now running 400 at 14.1 will still be very tough and rare,but there will most likely be 100 players capable of doing it instead of say 30 nowadays.
punter said:
You now, I think both you and Jim bring valid points to this. The cue ball moves somuch easier on the slick fast stuff and allows so much more concentration on making the ball. From that stance, I agree.
Jim makes a good point to, that on the slower nappy stuff, it was much more predictable and much easier to adjust to. Some of those older guys really got loose on that stuff.
av84fun said:
768 or 526?? Both are incredible numbers I can't even fathom.
What amazes me about both these feats is that I've played this game for35 years {app.} and at one time played pretty fair. but set up any shot on the table and shoot it 5-6-700 times and not scratch seems just incredible to me.
Tommy-D said:
I'd like to add to your many good above remarks:
Having heart, and sticktuitveness, and a ROCK solid mental game were trademarks of the players that came out of the depression era, and inturn those next in line (Buddy, Sigel, Varner etc.) who matched up and gambled back then saw and learned allot from these guys. It parallels the culture of the Phillipines and in turn (allot of us believe) the greatest all around player of all time was created, the Magician. Not many players have, can or ever will change the way a sport has been played unless they are 'special' in many ways. Buddy Hall simplifies middle ball, same swing speed and close shape, Varner shows us great 'all around' ability and mental game that not even a handful of American players have today, and Sigel had a Tiger Woods shot making game that I see NO one nowadays has yet to duplicate, except youth in the Asian market of the world. Make the pockets NOT sphincter tight and go to 10 ball and the game will have better balance and will not become a young eyes game only. We've yet to see a 16 yr old win at the Masters/Agusta or the US Open, there's probably a reason, with it happening in pool that tells change is needed within out sport. Me, I'd prefer each player be given one roll out per rack in 10-ball.
john schmidt said:
Hi John,
I agree with everything you've said above, I just have a question. Do you think the players of old had better strokes than the new players or at least on average? The game is so technical and percentage based on when to shoot, when to play safe or how to kick a ball it seems you don't need the monster stroke even on slower cloth IMO.
Besides a few players like Hopkins, the old players I've watched had beautiful strokes and could put massive amounts of english on the cue ball. What's your opinion please?
Best players
A lot of the older players kept knowledge to themselves in order to win money gambling and there weren't many young guys lucky enough to have a top player help them. Now when you go to a pool tournament there are players you never heard of coming out of the wood work who run out like the best players in the world. A good example is Shane Van Boening who started playing in pool leagues and is now one of the best players in the world!
Just my 2 cents,
James
In my opinion the young pool players of today have quite an advantage over the older top players. The equipment is superior today, the top players are willing to give lessons in private and on videos, Accu-stats tournament videos gives young and older players the chance to watch and listen to pros play and analyze matches, and I think the TV exposures such as it is has caused quite a bit of interest in learning to play good pool, and I also think the pool leagues have created many good players today.Johnnyt said:
A lot of the older players kept knowledge to themselves in order to win money gambling and there weren't many young guys lucky enough to have a top player help them. Now when you go to a pool tournament there are players you never heard of coming out of the wood work who run out like the best players in the world. A good example is Shane Van Boening who started playing in pool leagues and is now one of the best players in the world!
Just my 2 cents,
James
Throw 15 balls on the table.softshot said:
Your life is on the line.
Who'd you pick to run those 15 balls in rotation???
I'll pick at 25 yrs. old Efren.
john schmidt said:
John thanks for your input to this thread. I agree the tables are tougher today for the most part. 40 to 50 years ago in poolrooms like mine I had one, maybe two tight pocket tables. In the late 1950's Brunswick and I'm sure most other table companies set-up tables with bucket pockets so the new players coming in could make balls.
Today you have whole rooms with tight-ass pocket Diamonds. And I did forget that the Asian Invasion was not around in the 1960's, along with other countries that play here now. Johnnyt