Players today are better

[alstl]

I'm sure there were but not as often as many might think. Mosconi's tournament 125-50 and out runouts happened only 10-11% of the time.

Most 14.1 matches took LOTS of innings to complete. I will take a WILD guess so don't bash me if I'm wrong but I would guess that the typical 14.1 match took at least 12-15 innings and I would GUESS that the average run...after breaking into the initial rack would be 40-50 balls.

Make no mistake...you need some ROLLS to run over 100.

And yes, I own the Crane/Balsis match. One of my prized possessions.
(-:

Jim

I'm not bashing anybody, I simply disagree with the assertion that there were only a few top level players in the old days. My point is that a lot of top players flew under the radar in the days before mass communication. There aren't a lot of guys who can run hundreds of balls and still remain relatively unknown today.

 

[tom haney]

JohnnyT said:I have always contended that today's athletes are faster, stronger, and in better shape than the ones of fifty or more years ago.

Certainly not true in boxing. Bigger maybe. Nothing else.

 

[Johnnyt]

JohnnyT said:I have always contended that today's athletes are faster, stronger, and in better shape than the ones of fifty or more years ago.

Certainly not true in boxing. Bigger maybe. Nothing else.

Boxing would be one of the sports where they are faster, stronger, and in better shape. Johnnyt

 

[instroke75]

true!

Boxing would be one of the sports where they are faster, stronger, and in better shape. Johnnyt

Cassius Clay was barely 200 pounds, just barely bigger than the light heavyweights of today! I would love to see him in with some of the bigger guys of the late 80's and early 90's. Please don't take me wrong though, I know who the greatest is, was, and may always be!
Jeremy

 

[tom haney]

Boxing would be one of the sports where they are faster, stronger, and in better shape. Johnnyt

Watch old films of Marciano- Walcott, Marciano-Louis,
Robinson- Basilio.
They would KILL these guys today.
Marciano- Chagaev? Robinson- Mayweather?
Archie Moore- Hopkins?
Quick kayos for the old timers.

 

[axejunkie]

I didn't read this whole thread so not sure all that was covered, but here's something that should be mentioned.

It's not possible to compare players of different eras, and this applies more or less to all sports. Yeah, people don't want to hear that same boring disclaimer but it's true. Players will only be as good as they have to be; humans are inherently lazy. Do you think Efren would be as good as he is if he could've played 2 balls worse and won just as much? No, he wouldn've spent more time at the beach.

Players make more balls now, runout better now, jump balls now, break harder now, because they have to in order to compete. Players didn't shoot jump shots 50 years ago because it wasn't part of the game and they didn't have to learn it.

50 years from now there might be a player who runs 5 packs on 3.25 in. pockets and breaks 50mph while squatting the cue ball and shoots jacked up 2 table length draw shots for shape. Will he necessarily be "better" than Efren? No, because Efren can get by in our time without those skills and hasn't had to develop them, yet...

 

[Island Drive]

Playing to live and playing too win are completely different.

 

[Johnnyt]

Watch old films of Marciano- Walcott, Marciano-Louis,
Robinson- Basilio.
They would KILL these guys today.
Marciano- Chagaev? Robinson- Mayweather?
Archie Moore- Hopkins?
Quick kayos for the old timers.

I saw all of the above fight live in Madision Square Garden. I'm 67 an started going to the big fights there with my dad (who fought pro) when I was 8. Just like pool there were boxers that would hold their own with todays champions. 50 years ago you didn't know if the fight was fixed or not until MAYBE after you watched it. The "Brown Bomber" would have got killed by Ali--Ali would have got killed by Tyson. Johnnyt

 

[hemicudas]

Better than Ted Williams???

True, athletes are obviously better, stronger, faster, etal, today than in the past. But people,,,,, playing pool does not qualify you as an athlete. Minnesota Fats was a hell of a player. Not top speed but a hell of a player. Would you call him an athlete? I love Danny Basavich and he is a hell of a player but not many would deem him an athlete.

One thing no one can argue about is that today there are many more people playing pool, all over the planet. That means more people are exposed to pool today than in the past.

Ted Williams, once said there are probably a hand full of guys who could hit a baseball as well as I do but for what ever reason, never tried to play baseball. There might have been a hand full of guys who, had they been exposed to pool, played Mosconi's speed. With all the exposure to pool today I doubt there is another Efren Reyes out there.

Point being, if there are more people playing pool today there are going to be more bad players, more shortstops and more top players. They are no better than past players, with the exception of Efren but there are a hell of a lot more of them.

 

[tom haney]

I saw all of the above fight live in Madision Square Garden. I'm 67 an started going to the big fights there with my dad (who fought pro) when I was 8. Just like pool there were boxers that would hold their own with todays champions. 50 years ago you didn't know if the fight was fixed or not until MAYBE after you watched it. The "Brown Bomber" would have got killed by Ali--Ali would have got killed by Tyson. Johnnyt

Buster beat Tyson, Holyfield beat Buster.
You think Holyfield would have beaten Ali? No way.
And Louis, Marciano? Those guys could go 15 rounds easy in their primes.
I'd be happy to switch this discussion over to NPF so we could stick to boxing.

 

[instroke75]

not really impressed with Robinson other than his left hook:VERY NASTY!
watched a few fights on youtube, not sure if he could get to Mayweather like he got to some of those guys who looked like their feet were in molasses, and their headspeed was even slower!
Jeremy

 

[Blackjack]

Most of the best players today don't play much if any 14.1. But when they do they seem to catch on very quickly and start getting high runs of 100 and 200.

I keep hearing these stories, but nobody I know has ever stepped forward and claimed that they are one of these players. Most of the people I talk to either don't or won't play 14.1, or they have a great deal of respect for the game's complexity.

 

[JoeyInCali]

not really impressed with Robinson other than his left hook:VERY NASTY!
watched a few fights on youtube, not sure if he could get to Mayweather like he got to some of those guys who looked like their feet were in molasses, and their headspeed was even slower!
Jeremy

You're kidding.
Sugar Ray was knocking out middleweights till he was near 40.
KO'd Gene Fullmer with one left hook ( 9 yrs his junior, he was 37 ).
Sugar Ray was undefeated at 135-147.
Did not like to train even. Lost some at 160 but won the rematches.
PBF won't even want to be in the same room as Cotto.
Sugar Ray would have won today and won big b/c he'd make MILLIONS not the paltry purses he got then. He was so broke after retirement, Frank Sinatra endorsed his Miller Lite commercial checks to him.
Sugar Ray also was on the brink of beating light heavy champ Joey Maxim one hot Chicago nite. The ref passed out. Sugar Ray passed out in the 13th round too.
One thing about the boxers of then, they were really active. Today, 3 fights a year for champs is plenty. Hell, Sugar Ray fought LaMotta 5 times.

 

[tom haney]

not really impressed with Robinson other than his left hook:VERY NASTY!
watched a few fights on youtube, not sure if he could get to Mayweather like he got to some of those guys who looked like their feet were in molasses, and their headspeed was even slower!
Jeremy

He was much better as a welterweight than middleweight.
Very fast in his prime.

 

[JoeyInCali]

He was much better as a welterweight than middleweight.
Very fast in his prime.

Untoucheable at 147.
Beat Kid Gavilan and Armstrong at 147.
Finally lost to Lamotta but spotted him a few pounds.

 

[instroke75]

I keep hearing these stories, but nobody I know has ever stepped forward and claimed that they are one of these players. Most of the people I talk to either don't or won't play 14.1, or they have a great deal of respect for the game's complexity.

Do you not believe this? There are plenty of great players out there. Running 100 or 200 would not be a big deal for me to believe! I'm not near pro speed, and i've run 100 a couple of times, and a bunch of 80 and 90 point runs! Although i was taught to play by an oldtime straight pool player from Chicago(Leon Ledford), so i've played a bit of the game! I have alot of respect for your opinion, but I'm not sure what you're saying here!
Jeremy

 

[tom haney]

Untoucheable at 147.
Beat Kid Gavilan and Armstrong at 147.
Finally lost to Lamotta but spotted him a few pounds.

He would never beat Mayweather cause Mayweather would never
fight somebody like that. Heck, he wouldn't fight Margarito
and I doubt he'll fight Cotto.

 

[instroke75]

he does seem to duck the best competition, otherwise they would unify that weightclass, which is a damn shame!
Jeremy

 

[metallicane]

Back to the billiard side of the discussion, I think Sigel in his prime is the best all around player. He could do anything with the cue ball. It is a shame he gave up playing when he did. He comes out of retirement and people forget how good he was.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Back to the billiard side of the discussion, I think Sigel in his prime is the best all around player. He could do anything with the cue ball. It is a shame he gave up playing when he did. He comes out of retirement and people forget how good he was.

When he gave up, was he still winning?