Players today are better

[av84fun]

I'm not bashing anybody, I simply disagree with the assertion that there were only a few top level players in the old days. My point is that a lot of top players flew under the radar in the days before mass communication. There aren't a lot of guys who can run hundreds of balls and still remain relatively unknown today.

I didn't interpret your posts as bashing at all...and I think you are essentially correct.

The only thing I would add is that just like today, in the case of Allison and Karen, for example, Willie and Greenleaf (when he could stand up) were at a whole different level that most of the other "greats" of the day.

For quite a while, it was Willie at the top level and then the rest of the greats at a lower level..at least as far as tournament play was concerned.

As far as players running 100 today, there aren't many of them IN TOTAL...known or unknown...primarily because so few spend much time practicing let alone competing in 14.1 competitions.

Regards,
Jim

 

[14oneman]

I disagree

I think because of circumstance, there are far more good players today, but I don't think they're better. Especially with regards to 14.1. I believe Willie still holds the record for the most 100+ runs in tournament history of 14.1, and he retired from tournament play in 1959!!! The old tight pocket 10' footers, (used up until 1949), were harder to run on than todays tables. With the quality of todays tables, it makes it easier to run balls, not harder. I believe the average among todays pros is higher overall, but the "best of the best" of yesteryear were better than the best of what todays players have to offer. At least with regards to 14.1

My $0.02

 

[tom haney]

Back to the billiard side of the discussion, I think Sigel in his prime is the best all around player. He could do anything with the cue ball. It is a shame he gave up playing when he did. He comes out of retirement and people forget how good he was.

Sigel was a great player.
Haven't read all the posts. I always thought Mosconi was the best
til I saw Reyes.
I agree with some that a great player in the past would simply do what
it took to be a great player today.

 

[Josh Palmer]

You know what I do like in this discussion- Is that no one will dispute who is king, and that's Reyes. He is such a well rounded, and articulate player. I liked Sigel's style better, but Reyes bends the rules whenever he needs to. I would have to agree that overall, because of the resources on hand, if all those road players of yesteryear had to travel around making $$$, they would get themselves into more traps today. Too bad Harold Worst didn't have more time to play.

 

[Blackjack]

Do you not believe this? There are plenty of great players out there. Running 100 or 200 would not be a big deal for me to believe! I'm not near pro speed, and i've run 100 a couple of times, and a bunch of 80 and 90 point runs! Although i was taught to play by an oldtime straight pool player from Chicago(Leon Ledford), so i've played a bit of the game! I have alot of respect for your opinion, but I'm not sure what you're saying here!
Jeremy

What are you not sure about?

I keep hearing about these guys that can start running 200's in a matter of weeks - who are these people? I've been playing for over 35 years - I've been over a hundred quite a few times - but I've only been over 200 a handful of times. There is a BIG BIG BIG difference between running 100 and running 200. So many more factors come into play the longer you are at the table - I won't go into it, but during the last conversation I had with John Schmidt we talked about this, personally I'm calling BS on all of these stories about how easy it is for these guys to pick up straight pool.

Why do I think that? Sometime last year I was at an event and someone told me that Thorsten Hohmann had run 200 balls earlier that week during practice, and the same person told me that Toastie was running balls like that every day. So I go up to Thorsten and asked him about it - I actually congratulated him. He just looked at me. Thorsten had no idea what I was talking about. It was just another one of those tales making the rounds. Thorsten told me he hadn't made any big runs in quite a while.

FWIW, My mind works like this - if Thorsten isn't running 200 every day - and I know Mr. 400 isn't running 200's very often at all- its a safe bet that nobody else is either.

 

[Johnnyt]

What are you not sure about?

I keep hearing about these guys that can start running 200's in a matter of weeks - who are these people? I've been playing for over 35 years - I've been over a hundred quite a few times - but I've only been over 200 a handful of times. There is a BIG BIG BIG difference between running 100 and running 200. So many more factors come into play the longer you are at the table - I won't go into it, but during the last conversation I had with John Schmidt we talked about this, personally I'm calling BS on all of these stories about how easy it is for these guys to pick up straight pool.

Why do I think that? Sometime last year I was at an event and someone told me that Thorsten Hohmann had run 200 balls earlier that week during practice, and the same person told me that Toastie was running balls like that every day. So I go up to Thorsten and asked him about it - I actually congratulated him. He just looked at me. Thorsten had no idea what I was talking about. It was just another one of those tales making the rounds. Thorsten told me he hadn't made any big runs in quite a while.

FWIW, My mind works like this - if Thorsten isn't running 200 every day - and I know Mr. 400 isn't running 200's very often at all- its a safe bet that nobody else is either.

Well I'll put the first one up and hope others will add to it.
1) Johnny Archer.

 

[Blackjack]

Well I'll put the first one up and hope others will add to it.
1) Johnny Archer.

Coached well by Nick Varner, but he's not running 200's very often.

Johnny's "200 unfinished" in Cleveland was over 15 years ago. I don't think he's got to 200 since because that # is listed as his official high run, and I know Johnny is not an "occasional" straight pool player, in fact he loves the game and plays it quite often.

 

[Johnnyt]

Coached well by Nick Varner, but he's not running 200's very often.

Johnny's "200 unfinished" in Cleveland was over 15 years ago. I don't think he's got to 200 since because that # is listed as his official high run, and I know Johnny is not an "occasional" straight pool player, in fact he loves the game and plays it quite often.

Oh now they can't have a coach? I enjoy your posts and I have many friends that say you are a great guy....but God you hate to be wrong Johnnyt

 

[ribdoner]

Do you not believe this? There are plenty of great players out there. Running 100 or 200 would not be a big deal for me to believe! I'm not near pro speed, and i've run 100 a couple of times, and a bunch of 80 and 90 point runs! Although i was taught to play by an oldtime straight pool player from Chicago(Leon Ledford), so i've played a bit of the game! I have alot of respect for your opinion, but I'm not sure what you're saying here!
Jeremy

LEON was a consistant hundred ball runner and he was the 3rd or 4th strongest of the straight pool specialists that hung their hat at MARIE'S.

Tall, unknown (not stretch) came through and pillaged playin em 9ball

 

[JoeyInCali]

Efren ran 136 in his first straight-pool tournament.
He had to consult with Al Romero how to play the game a week or two before the PBT even in Portland, Maine.
In his SECOND straight-pool tournament, he barely missed the pack after pocketing his break ball to go 150 and out.
Now, what would have happened if Efren played straight pool everyday for 10 years????

 

[ribdoner]

Efren ran 136 in his first straight-pool tournament.
He had to consult with Al Romero how to play the game a week or two before the PBT even in Portland, Maine.
In his SECOND straight-pool tournament, he barely missed the pack after pocketing his break ball to go 150 and out.
Now, what would have happened if Efren played straight pool everyday for 10 years????

The Mosconi was the best myth would have been debunked....if E played the game and he and W matched up E would have gotten lucky....a LOT

 

[Blackjack]

Oh now they can't have a coach? I enjoy your posts and I have many friends that say you are a great guy....but God you hate to be wrong Johnnyt

How am I wrong? I called BS on a statement that YOU made. You said that there are all kinds of guys out there today that can run 200. Where are they, Johnny? That's all I asked. Going back 15 years and saying that Johnny Archer is one of them... well he's a great World Champion and has been for almost 20 years or so. If these guys are out there, tell me where they are, I want to know what they're having for breakfast.

 

[Johnnyt]

How am I wrong? I called BS on a statement that YOU made. You said that there are all kinds of guys out there today that can run 200. Where are they, Johnny? That's all I asked. Going back 15 years and saying that Johnny Archer is one of them... well he's a great World Champion and has been for almost 20 years or so. If these guys are out there, tell me where they are, I want to know what they're having for breakfast.

LOL. I know their out there. Thats why I asked for some help with other AZ's. I don't get out much anymore. Perhaps I should have said a lot of pro non-14.1 players run over 100 in a few weeks. Saying a lot over 200 may have been my NY up bringing coming out . Johnnyt

 

[alstl]

I saw all of the above fight live in Madision Square Garden. I'm 67 an started going to the big fights there with my dad (who fought pro) when I was 8. Just like pool there were boxers that would hold their own with todays champions. 50 years ago you didn't know if the fight was fixed or not until MAYBE after you watched it. The "Brown Bomber" would have got killed by Ali--Ali would have got killed by Tyson. Johnnyt

George Foreman was 90 years old and knocked out the younger, faster, stronger, smarter, better looking, better conditioned champ.

Case closed.

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[john schmidt]

hi

205 is a million times harder than 105 .johnny archers high run he told me is 252.he plays the game plenty and hes awesome at it.these people that talk like guys start playing the game and their first week run 200s etcetc crack me up.ive only played maybe 70-90 frames of snooker on a 6by12 and managed to run over 100 8-9 times including a 145 recently.my point is any top player that plays 14.1 and runs say 190 thinks this game is easy.if they play it another 5 years they realize how good a run that is because they willl most likely only have a few runs if any higher than that one after 5 years.for the record people keep saying if efren played 14.1 he would do this and that.well all i can tell you is he or any other pinoy can play me 14.1 and if they play it everyday for the rest of their life i will still play them even.they would also do quite well to ever run over 350.the thing they do much better than me is kicking and safety play and guess what there is very little of that in 14.1.all you have to do to run 200-300 is shoot crazy straight and have a near perfect cueball.so all the guys who say running 200 is such a hanger for all these great players who dont play the game but if they did they would run millions etc.heres what ill do.these champions can come down to pensacola and we can play on tables right next to each other.5 inch pockets new cloth and balls and whoever runs over 200 first gets say 2000.and we can do that until somebody loses say 10000. they can even stay at my house for free just lift the toilet seat lol

 

[PoolBum]

George Foreman was 90 years old and knocked out the younger, faster, stronger, smarter, better looking, better conditioned champ.

Case closed.

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Now, now, you know big George was only 85.

 

[ribdoner]

Now, now, you know big George was only 85.

NAW, that was his waistline...


In boxing bigger, stronger, faster doesn't always mean better.....esp. in the last couple decades (TYSON) when PED's were used.

 

[JoeyInCali]

NAW, that was his waistline...


In boxing bigger, stronger, faster doesn't always mean better.....esp. in the last couple decades (TYSON) when PED's were used.

A good chin helps.
Michael Moorer got dizzy when the wind blew hard.

 

[PoolBum]

When he gave up, was he still winning?

Looks like 1994 was his last year, and according to Billiards Digest he won two PBT titles that year, which is the same number of titles that Reyes, Archer, Strickland, and Varner are listed as having won that year.

Before that, between 1988 and 1994, Reyes is listed as having won one title, the 1988 McDermott Masters, while Sigel is listed as having won seven, including the Sands Regency twice, the B.C. Open, and the World 14.1 title.

 

[av84fun]

How am I wrong? I called BS on a statement that YOU made. You said that there are all kinds of guys out there today that can run 200. Where are they, Johnny? That's all I asked. Going back 15 years and saying that Johnny Archer is one of them... well he's a great World Champion and has been for almost 20 years or so. If these guys are out there, tell me where they are, I want to know what they're having for breakfast.

They certainly weren't at Bob Jewett's Derby City Straight Pool Challenge.

In the preliminaries, each contestant got BIH for a break shot and had TWELVE tries to run as many as they could.

Here are the results:

Final eight:

Immonen 147
Patroni 140
Fejen 130
Deuel 107
Schmidt 100
Hohman 98
Souquet 92
Appleton 73

I don't know how many years Bob has been running the Challenge but possibly he will chime in and let us know how many contestants have ever run 200.

As one of the top supporters of 14.1 in America, he might also let us know how many players he thinks can routinely run 200-300 in ten tries.

Regards,
Jim