Power Break Question....

mnorwood

mnorwood

Moon
Silver Member
There have been threads in the past debating whether or not all the body movement such as raising the body and hip thrusts lead to a more powerful break. Some say this is a transfer of force to the cue thus making your break stronger. I have heard others say there is no such transfer of weight or force into your stroke through various types of body movement and that the only key aspect of the power break is the timing of the cue acceleration.

I am inclined to believe the school of thought that says body movement doesn't help you, but I am open to hear how body weight actually transfers into your cue.

Is it possible that the head raising and hip thrusts act as physical prompts to help the player time the acceleration of the cue?
 
mnorwood said:
There have been threads in the past debating whether or not all the body movement such as raising the body and hip thrusts lead to a more powerful break. Some say this is a transfer of force to the cue thus making your break stronger. I have heard others say there is no such transfer of weight or force into your stroke through various types of body movement and that the only key aspect of the power break is the timing of the cue acceleration.

I am inclined to believe the school of thought that says body movement doesn't help you, but I am open to hear how body weight actually transfers into your cue.

Is it possible that the head raising and hip thrusts act as physical prompts to help the player time the acceleration of the cue?
Click to expand...

Two words... Youtube and Mosconiac. The proof is there in the puddding.... Timing is everything.

Mosconiac is a bad mother from whomfumducker....
 
mnorwood said:
There have been threads in the past debating whether or not all the body movement such as raising the body and hip thrusts lead to a more powerful break. Some say this is a transfer of force to the cue thus making your break stronger. I have heard others say there is no such transfer of weight or force into your stroke through various types of body movement and that the only key aspect of the power break is the timing of the cue acceleration.

I am inclined to believe the school of thought that says body movement doesn't help you, but I am open to hear how body weight actually transfers into your cue.

Is it possible that the head raising and hip thrusts act as physical prompts to help the player time the acceleration of the cue?
Click to expand...

Most people will be able to break better by being partially raised to begin with instead of trying time your body rise like Shane Van Boening.

Breaking like anything else takes PRACTICE.

For the record, I am positive that with the tighter pocketed tables out there now, the more powerful (faster) break does not make more balls or control the cue better. I've seen it with my own eyes and know that on tight pockets, good breakers make more balls with moderate speed. They also control the cue ball better.

Just recently I started breaking better by simply slowing up my final back swing, imagining in my mind that I am relaxing my muscles on the last back swing and then coming forward with a controlled explosion of power and movement.

Besides technique, the biggest problem in breaking is RACKING, imo. The second biggest problem is the balls. Mismatched, old or dirty balls produce inconsistent results. With poor equipment and tight pockets it's hard to control anything.


JoeyA
 
can it produce more power? or velocity?

think about how a pitcher throws?
how about how a batter swings?

Its silly to think that you cant develop more power by shifting your balance or coming up. Its also silly to think you can by doing this.

Example: If you have good timing and have praticed such motions then you can develop more power and hopefully you trained so control into it too

Example 2: you have goofey timing and can't ever hit the ball at the right time and it just hurts you more than anything.

The best example I can find of #2 effecting a player is Little John, his break looks huge but its really not, his timing is bad and he rarely hits the balls on the square...his POWER is there, just his timing is bad which just nulls all that big power out.


The best example of #1 is you guessed it Johnny Archer, archer hits the balls square and extends more forward as opposed to shooting up...keeping that perpetual motion in the play.

What happens is when you start to raise and move foreward the elbow drops and the arm works as a fulcrum and has more whip action thus attaining a higher velocity and mass to back it up. Its dam near similar to how women throw a fastpitch softball.

But its really hard to do, I have great timing, was always a good athlete and hit it great but I have spent many hours/years perfecting that...but honestly I don't even use it that often as I break however the balls fall. And they usually fall with that nice punch stroke, usuing scott lees speed ratings he showed me I'd say my most successful breaks are usually around 5-6sp.

If you can train to deliver that shot thats cool, are you going to need it? not really, just dont go off the air and always think thats how you find breaking success. The table should dictate the break shot, not the player.

Grey Ghost
 
mnorwood said:
I am inclined to believe the school of thought that says body movement doesn't help you, but I am open to hear how body weight actually transfers into your cue.

Is it possible that the head raising and hip thrusts act as physical prompts to help the player time the acceleration of the cue?
Click to expand...

I think the the lower body movement we see is actually a reaction to the greater force generated by the upper body and takes place well after the cueball is on it's way.

I've noticed the big power breakers all lift their elbows in an arc on the backswing giving them tremendous power with little effort. It's like taking a longer backswing in golf - Roberto Gomez being an extreme example of this. This creates more cue travel without a longer bridge.

Check out this video at about 1:20 35 and use the pause button to see the tremendous arc Roberto gets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l43EuOnIIg&feature=PlayList&p=A8D53EF1A8E7FE2D&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=14

Notice the butt of his cue is traveling several feet upward while the tip is paused all the way back. There is a pause at the top and a smooth transition to a powerful break.

This elbow/shoulder arc basically doubles the length of his swing by using the shoulder joint as well as the elbow joint. Notice thoughout his entire break, his hip and feet are in the same alignment, and it isn't until the break has already occured that his body moves forward, this in reaction to the force generated by his upper body. The lifting of his upper body is also in reaction to his shoulder movement.

Chris
 
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mnorwood said:
I am inclined to believe the school of thought that says body movement doesn't help you, but I am open to hear how body weight actually transfers into your cue.
Click to expand...

Weight is the wrong mental image so is HARD or strength, it is SPEED, the body movments and weight transfers add to your cueing SPEED, like golf or baseball.

Big breakers (no particular order):
Bustamante big body movment
Alex big body movment
Shane big body movment
Johny big body movment
Wu big body movment

These are probably some of the top PRO's on break all have impecable timming and rythm and accuracy (THEY PARK THE CUE BALL AFTER CONTACT) and probably dedicate hours per week on breaking. There's a book that focus on the break (name escapes me) that explanes how the leverage helps increase the speed of the cue, it goes in detail on the sequence of each movment and when to drop the cue and why. I will put myself out there and say your school of thought should be rethunk if you want the big break. Good post.
 
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mnorwood said:
There have been threads in the past debating whether or not all the body movement such as raising the body and hip thrusts lead to a more powerful break. Some say this is a transfer of force to the cue thus making your break stronger. I have heard others say there is no such transfer of weight or force into your stroke through various types of body movement and that the only key aspect of the power break is the timing of the cue acceleration.

I am inclined to believe the school of thought that says body movement doesn't help you, but I am open to hear how body weight actually transfers into your cue.

Is it possible that the head raising and hip thrusts act as physical prompts to help the player time the acceleration of the cue?
Click to expand...

I checked out youtube on colin colenso power breaking tips. I used it tonight and I made several 3 to 4 ball breaks. I was playin the ghost so I wasnt worried about cue ball control but still tried to control it. It sucked but the break is powerful. Im gonna work on the control some more. I believe its a keeper
 
Marcus,

FYI, I have lots of videos, articles, and other resources covering break technique advice and rationale here:


Many people raise their body because they drop their elbow. These two motions counteract each other, keeping the cue close to level at impact. Also, both motions can allow many people to generate more cue speed by getting more of the shoulder muscles involved. For much more info, see the resources via the link above.

Regards,
Dave

mnorwood said:
There have been threads in the past debating whether or not all the body movement such as raising the body and hip thrusts lead to a more powerful break. Some say this is a transfer of force to the cue thus making your break stronger. I have heard others say there is no such transfer of weight or force into your stroke through various types of body movement and that the only key aspect of the power break is the timing of the cue acceleration.

I am inclined to believe the school of thought that says body movement doesn't help you, but I am open to hear how body weight actually transfers into your cue.

Is it possible that the head raising and hip thrusts act as physical prompts to help the player time the acceleration of the cue?
Click to expand...
 
horton129 said:
Weight is the wrong mental image so is HARD or strength, it is SPEED, the body movments and weight transfers add to your cueing SPEED, like golf or baseball.

Big breakers (no particular order):
Bustamante big body movment
Alex big body movment
Shane big body movment
Johny big body movment
Wu big body movment

These are probably some of the top PRO's on break all have impecable timming and rythm and accuracy (THEY PARK THE CUE BALL AFTER CONTACT) and probably dedicate hours per week on breaking. There's a book that focus on the break (name escapes me) that explanes how the leverage helps increase the speed of the cue, it goes in detail on the sequence of each movment and when to drop the cue and why. I will put myself out there and say your school of thought should be rethunk if you want the big break. Good post.
Click to expand...

You left out Larry Nevel.

Body movement definitely delivers more power, but doesn't guarantee better breaking. Sometimes, I think you can over break. It's like the big bang theory in the since that all the ball collapse back on themselves and counter each other out. This is dependent on many factors such as the table speed, humidity, ball weight. Sometimes taking a little off can allow for the ball to get out of each others way and therefore a better table spread.
I don't have any hard evidence to support this theory, just years of observation.
 
jason said:
You left out Larry Nevel.

Body movement definitely delivers more power, but doesn't guarantee better breaking. Sometimes, I think you can over break. It's like the big bang theory in the since that all the ball collapse back on themselves and counter each other out. This is dependent on many factors such as the table speed, humidity, ball weight. Sometimes taking a little off can allow for the ball to get out of each others way and therefore a better table spread.
I don't have any hard evidence to support this theory, just years of observation.
Click to expand...

I agree and say this to people often, there is definately an optimum expansion to break for, after that the balls begin to contract back onto themselves...this is to great effect in breaking 8 ball.
 
5ballcharlie said:
I checked out youtube on colin colenso power breaking tips. I used it tonight and I made several 3 to 4 ball breaks. I was playin the ghost so I wasnt worried about cue ball control but still tried to control it. It sucked but the break is powerful. Im gonna work on the control some more. I believe its a keeper
Click to expand...

He has a monster break. This is one of the best break instructional vids on YouTube as Colin covers all aspects thoroughly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW1tsONEI_U
 
3 Mechanisms of Force / additional Velocity

mnorwood said:
Is it possible that the head raising and hip thrusts act as physical prompts to help the player time the acceleration of the cue?
Click to expand...

There are a few concrete physical / biomechanical contributors which can add velocity to the cue and hence make for bigger breaks. I'll discuss the main ones in order of what I consider to be the most important.

1. Long Lever: By standing higher during the shot, the effective length of the lever is increased. So just as long golf clubs have higher head speeds, a longer arm allows higher cue speed. One doesn't necessarily have to lunge upward to achieve this, but starting low and then raising the body may seem more conducive to better aiming.

2. Centripetal Force: The lunge upward of the shooting shoulder also produces a force at right angles to the direction of the cue movement. This centripetal force accelerates the cue, in the same way that hammer throwers accelerate the hammer by pulling at 90 degrees against it as it rotates.

3. Forward Lunge: Forward lunging creates additional cue speed also, just as shot putters can throw further with a glide throw rather than just a standing throw. One may be able to lunge at 2-3mph and this component can be added to the overall cue speed.

The trick is working out the technique of these various factors such that they can all contribute with minimal loss of control.

I do believe a good wrist flick can contribute as much speed as the 3 effects above combined and it becomes hard to execute that as well while lunging, so a well timed stroke with minimum movement and with a reasonable length of lever can produce some very powerful controlled breaks.

That said, if one wants to break a world record, they might need to add a lunge to their technique.

[edit]: Just saw you posted my video above cmbwsu. Thanks for the compliments. I discuss some of the things I mention above in that video. I might reword some of it if I did it again, but it does an ok job of demonstrating what I'm trying to describe here.
 
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Colin Colenso said:
There are a few concrete physical / biomechanical contributors which can add velocity to the cue and hence make for bigger breaks. I'll discuss the main ones in order of what I consider to be the most important.

1. Long Lever: By standing higher during the shot, the effective length of the lever is increased. So just as long golf clubs have higher head speeds, a longer arm allows higher cue speed. One doesn't necessarily have to lunge upward to achieve this, but starting low and then raising the body may seem more conducive to better aiming.

2. Centripetal Force: The lunge upward of the shooting shoulder also produces a force at right angles to the direction of the cue movement. This centripetal force accelerates the cue, in the same way that hammer throwers accelerate the hammer by pulling at 90 degrees against it as it rotates.

3. Forward Lunge: Forward lunging creates additional cue speed also, just as shot putters can throw further with a glide throw rather than just a standing throw. One may be able to lunge at 2-3mph and this component can be added to the overall cue speed.

The trick is working out the technique of these various factors such that they can all contribute with minimal loss of control.

I do believe a good wrist flick can contribute as much speed as the 3 effects above combined and it becomes hard to execute that as well while lunging, so a well timed stroke with minimum movement and with a reasonable length of lever can produce some very powerful controlled breaks.

That said, if one wants to break a world record, they might need to add a lunge to their technique.

[edit]: Just saw you posted my video above cmbwsu. Thanks for the compliments. I discuss some of the things I mention above in that video. I might reword some of it if I did it again, but it does an ok job of demonstrating what I'm trying to describe here.
Click to expand...

You are very welcome. I sent your vid link to some of my students and that will be Sunday's lesson -- for them and me :)
 
Colin Colenso said:
There are a few concrete physical / biomechanical contributors which can add velocity to the cue and hence make for bigger breaks. I'll discuss the main ones in order of what I consider to be the most important.

1. Long Lever: By standing higher during the shot, the effective length of the lever is increased. So just as long golf clubs have higher head speeds, a longer arm allows higher cue speed. One doesn't necessarily have to lunge upward to achieve this, but starting low and then raising the body may seem more conducive to better aiming.

2. Centripetal Force: The lunge upward of the shooting shoulder also produces a force at right angles to the direction of the cue movement. This centripetal force accelerates the cue, in the same way that hammer throwers accelerate the hammer by pulling at 90 degrees against it as it rotates.

3. Forward Lunge: Forward lunging creates additional cue speed also, just as shot putters can throw further with a glide throw rather than just a standing throw. One may be able to lunge at 2-3mph and this component can be added to the overall cue speed.

The trick is working out the technique of these various factors such that they can all contribute with minimal loss of control.

I do believe a good wrist flick can contribute as much speed as the 3 effects above combined and it becomes hard to execute that as well while lunging, so a well timed stroke with minimum movement and with a reasonable length of lever can produce some very powerful controlled breaks.

That said, if one wants to break a world record, they might need to add a lunge to their technique.

[edit]: Just saw you posted my video above cmbwsu. Thanks for the compliments. I discuss some of the things I mention above in that video. I might reword some of it if I did it again, but it does an ok job of demonstrating what I'm trying to describe here.
Click to expand...

Hi Colin,
How much cue speed does moving the rear hand forward a few inches gain you?

Also, doesn't moving the rear hand forward on the butt of the cue, "shorten" the lever rather than lengthening it?

thanks,
JoeyA
 
The snooker players that come over to pool can't seem to bring themselves to throw their body into the break. They are all arm motion and as expected cant put enough mustard on the ball.
 
JoeyA said:
Hi Colin,
How much cue speed does moving the rear hand forward a few inches gain you?

Also, doesn't moving the rear hand forward on the butt of the cue, "shorten" the lever rather than lengthening it?

thanks,
JoeyA
Click to expand...

Hi JoeyA,

This is just a guess but I figure some people can add 2-3 mph to their break by shortening their back hand position. There are two possible advantages of doing this.

1. With a longer arm (lever) on breaking due to being more upright, moving the hand towards the bridge brings it more into a right angled position which makes it more effective (and effectively longer), than having a longer back arm which is at a shallower angle to the cue. Imagine if the arm were stretched to the back of a 7 foot cue and you can visualize that the force is being applied at an inefficient angle.

2. Maybe the main reason is that shortening the back hand means that the pectoral (chest) muscle and front deltoid (shoulder) muscles (which are the source of most of the power) are put in a neutral / mid position in regard to extension / contraction. This is where muscles are at their strongest and can accelerate with more force, allowing a powerful punch with a limited back swing.

To get the feel for how this works, try a Bruce Lee 1" punch, first with arm almost fully extended, next with fist almost contracted back near your shoulder and one midway. The midway position is much stronger at applying a rapid burst of force. Different muscles involved, but you'll get the idea of what I mean by mid/extension power.
 
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Great answer

JoeyA said:
Most people will be able to break better by being partially raised to begin with instead of trying time your body rise like Shane Van Boening.

Breaking like anything else takes PRACTICE.

For the record, I am positive that with the tighter pocketed tables out there now, the more powerful (faster) break does not make more balls or control the cue better. I've seen it with my own eyes and know that on tight pockets, good breakers make more balls with moderate speed. They also control the cue ball better.

Just recently I started breaking better by simply slowing up my final back swing, imagining in my mind that I am relaxing my muscles on the last back swing and then coming forward with a controlled explosion of power and movement.

Besides technique, the biggest problem in breaking is RACKING, imo. The second biggest problem is the balls. Mismatched, old or dirty balls produce inconsistent results. With poor equipment and tight pockets it's hard to control anything.


JoeyA
Click to expand...

I know you have had a chance to see many of the best from the booth. And you can play and apply some of these things you are seeing. Makes for powerful advice.

I learned some things in the booth with you also. I keep my eyes and mind open all the time. You never know when you might just learn something new.

Good information...................
 
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