Power draw shots and dropping the elbow

It's like this...

You'll prob hear the science guys state that dropping the elbow has no effect on the result of the draw because the ball is already on the way to the target.

However, I keep an open mind since none of the science guys can draw the rock like Mike (and I'm sure Mike experimented with not dropping his elbow).

I wonder if bridge length has something to do with it. I have a longer bridge length and I tend to have a pendulum stroke without an elbow drop. I find my tip always finishes on the cloth. I wonder if dropping your elbow keeps the cue more level upon impact? I dunno... just speculating.

All I know is when a guy at Mike's level says you have to and the pool scientists say it doesn't matter, I err to the side of the argument who is capable of executing. I'm sure it's not Mike's first rodeo and I'm sure he's tried it multiple ways.

Would be interested in reading what everyone else has to say. Like I said, I'm a non-elbow-dropper but that doesn't mean I think elbow dropping is a bad thing at all. In fact, it's prob a good thing since a good % of the best players do it.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
I came across this video of Mike Massey demonstrating a power draw shot. In the clip he explains that you must drop your elbow to achieve this kind of spin. Do you agree or disagree?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbnxQWe_OTg&feature=related
Click to expand...

I agree.

Massey's elbow isn't pulled down during the followthrough of his stroke; he forces it down during the stroke itself, using his shoulder muscle and the leverage of the second joint to power the shot. It's the same way good power breakers break, but a little more controlled.

I suppose it's necessary for this kind of exhibition shot, but it's a mother to control and unnecessary in real life. In real life you might need to drop your elbow for after-contact followthrough, but only if you're drawing back 5 or 6 feet. If you get into situations where drawing 15 feet is the best option, it's more of a situation control problem than a draw problem.

pj
chgo
 
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Dropping the Elbow for a more level cue and a nice lose grip will make for a better draw shot someone on the billards Digest fourms Dr Dave i think broke it down and he is saying the same thing if im not mistaken..
 
Patrick Johnson said:
When do you need to spin the ball that much? I've never needed to.

pj
chgo
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3 days ago. what kind of question is that? i don't always play great shape or i get left tough. instead of complaining i do what i have to to get out (if i can)

if i'm nervous and the angle's right i prefer drawing to the rail and back out (full length straight in shot i'm talking about) instead of trying to draw back a couple of feet. just feels like the margin of error's bigger when i do it that way
 
First of all, Mike is a friend of mine, and I respect his ability to the utmost. However, that said...we have examined that youtube clip, in slow-motion, and Mike's elbow does not move, until after contact with the CB, at which point, the elbow drop becomes moot, as far as having any effect on the outcome of the shot. This is true for most pros that have any kind of severe elbow drop...similar to what's shown in the video...the elbow moves after contact with the CB. There are people who can make accurate contact with the CB, WHILE moving the elbow...witness Mr. Brett's video. So, it becomes a choice, whether to move the elbow or not...not because you can do something by dropping the elbow, that you cannot do, with a pendulum swing. That is simply not true. Few, if any, can duplicate the smooth delivery in Mike Massey's powerful stroke. Ultimately, it is Mike's expert ability to accurately deliver his tip, to the maximum low position on the CB, at a very high speed, that creates that power draw stroke. Dropping the elbow has nothing to do with it.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

cuetechasaurus said:
I came across this video of Mike Massey demonstrating a power draw shot. In the clip he explains that you must drop your elbow to achieve this kind of spin. Do you agree or disagree?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbnxQWe_OTg&feature=related
Click to expand...
 
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JoseV...You're half right. You must have a loose grip for a good draw stroke. The other part is baloney. The only time your cue has to be level, is at contact with the CB. The CB leaves instantaneously (1/000th of a second), and after that it doesn't matter. We happen to value a pendulum swing more, simply because it's easier to program into a reflex action, and easier to train for speed control. Ultimately, it's about using the weight of the cue, and timing, to create the speed and quality of the stroke (which translates to accuracy...and results). You can, obviously (with all due respect to Mr. Brett), do that with a complex movement, or a simple one.

Kinisthetically, the pendulum is more appealing, because the elbow is a hinge, that only opens and closes in a straight line (fewer moving parts). Therefore inaccuracy in your stroke is limited to tension, from either the bicep, the grip hand, or both. Learn to relax your grip, and a pendulum stroke becomes a powerful weapon...because your tip goes to the same place on every shot, regardless of speed. The elbow movement is initiated from the shoulder joint, which is several groups of muscles, and a ball & socket, which can steer the cue many ways, even without tension in your stroke. In this case, imo, simple is better.:D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com


JoseV said:
Dropping the Elbow for a more level cue and a nice lose grip will make for a better draw shot someone on the billards Digest fourms Dr Dave i think broke it down and he is saying the same thing if im not mistaken..
Click to expand...
 
Scott Lee said:
First of all, Mike is a friend of mine, and I respect his ability to the utmost. However, that said...we have examined that youtube clip, in slow-motion, and Mike's elbow does not move, until after contact with the CB, at which point, the elbow drop becomes moot, as far as having any effect on the outcome of the shot. This is true for most pros that have any kind of severe elbow drop...similar to what's shown in the video...the elbow moves after contact with the CB. There are people who can make accurate contact with the CB, WHILE moving the elbow...witness Mr. Brett's video. So, it becomes a choice, whether to move the elbow or not...not because you can do something by dropping the elbow, that you cannot do, with a pendulum swing. That is simply not true. Few, if any, can duplicate the smooth delivery in Mike Massey's powerful stroke. Ultimately, it is Mike's expert ability to accurately deliver his tip, to the maximum low position on the CB, at a very high speed, that creates that power draw stroke. Dropping the elbow has nothing to do with it.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

I respectfully disagree. There is no freaking way you can stop that elbow from dropping after swinging that hard. Just show us someone who can draw the ball that much and not drop their elbow, then I for one may believe you.
 
Scott Lee said:
Mike's elbow does not move, until after contact with the CB, at which point, the elbow drop becomes moot, as far as having any effect on the outcome of the shot.
Scott Lee
Click to expand...

Does that mean I can stop following through, and it won't affect the shot? After all, how could anything you do after the tip contacts the CB possibly affect the outcome?
 
Scott Lee:
...we have examined that youtube clip, in slow-motion, and Mike's elbow does not move, until after contact with the CB
Click to expand...

I don't think this is quite right. His elbow rises during his backstroke and then drops from that higher position during his forward stroke, like a power breaker's stroke. The elbow drop before hitting the CB isn't as dramatic as the drop after hitting the CB, but it's there and I think it adds to his power.

...not because you can do something by dropping the elbow, that you cannot do, with a pendulum swing. That is simply not true.
Click to expand...

I have to differ with this. You can add significant power by dropping the elbow during the stroke that you can't achieve without dropping the elbow, because you're involving the shoulder muscle(s) in powering the shot. Watch most power breakers to see this in action.

pj
chgo
 
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He barely twitches it and that's mostly during the follow through.

If you swing hard, the weight of your arm and stick will want to drag your upper arm forward, and there's no reason to really fight that... tho in the clip I think he does a little, quickly returning his forearm to the pre-drop position.

During a more normal shot, the momentum isn't so huge that you really need to bring your upper arm into it.

I think the thing most players should walk away with is that if you control your elbow and focus on not dropping for most shots.. the ones where you only use average force.. you will have a more controlled and consistent stroke.

If you must gamble on drilling a ball with 2-table-length draw for some reason, just try to keep the stick on course and let your arm follow through as naturally as possible and don't sweat whether you drop or not. Mostly the drop will be post-hit anyway. No need to overanalyze whether it happened just before or just after contact.
 
CreeDo said:
He barely twitches it and that's mostly during the follow through.
Click to expand...

Have you looked at the last stroke, the one that's in slow motion? He definitely has his elbow moving downward as he hits the CB. Not much, but I'll bet it adds noticably to his stroke speed.

I think the thing most players should walk away with is that if you control your elbow and focus on not dropping for most shots.. the ones where you only use average force.. you will have a more controlled and consistent stroke.
Click to expand...

Sure, although that's a different topic than "how does Massey get superdraw?".

Mostly the drop will be post-hit anyway. No need to overanalyze whether it happened just before or just after contact.
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It can make a big difference in the power of the shot, so it bears some analysis. It's easier to use shoulder motion on a break shot, but I'm sure it can be done on other kinds of shots too if you practice it.

pj
chgo
 
Maybe just me, but it's almost like the attention is focused in the wrong place. If you freeze the last shot, 2:25, the cue is bent against the bed of the table. He hits so low that when he follows through, he's very close to tearing the cloth. Look at 2:22, he hits the ball where it meets the table, and the cue bends against the table. I can hit very high and put a ton of follow on the ball, but very low tends to make the cueball hop.
Scott, what's the key to hitting insanely low and hard and not following under?
 
eze123 said:
Maybe just me, but it's almost like the attention is focused in the wrong place. If you freeze the last shot, 2:25, the cue is bent against the bed of the table. He hits so low that when he follows through, he's very close to tearing the cloth. Look at 2:22, he hits the ball where it meets the table, and the cue bends against the table. I can hit very high and put a ton of follow on the ball, but very low tends to make the cueball hop.
Scott, what's the key to hitting insanely low and hard and not following under?
Click to expand...

i'm not scott but i'd say practice
 
I don't think the camera did this justis. At 2:21 the ball has left. I think we would need to see 2:20-1/2. If you look at the cue elevation is would appear to me the the contact point is higher than the video shows us. The cue action is straight and true in a slight downward path. The split second difference brings the tip to the cloth.
 
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Look at 2:22, he hits the ball where it meets the table
Click to expand...

His stick is just about touching the cloth, but the CB contact point is about 1/2" above that (at the upper edge of the tip). Anyway, I think he hits the CB a little above that, and a little sooner.

pj
chgo
 
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