Pro players strokes vs. intermediate/advanced strokes

[predator]

Recently I attended a tournament where they had mixed field of players:
- majority of players were in intermediate class
- some were advanced players very near pro speed
- then some pro players (most famous names being Tot, Petroni, Foldes...)
- a few beginners as well

I took time to carefully observe players of all calibers. I've always wondered what makes those pro players so much better than rest of us. Is it aiming/shotmaking? Stance/alignment? Position play? Better tactics? Stronger mental game? The stroke?

Well, I think it's all of the above actually, but at least 95% of the difference is in the stroke. To be more precise, the grip hand, not the whole lower arm movement. We all look like pro's when we prepare for the stroke. But the cueball tells a different story.

Their grip control gives them a stroke which is so repeatable and reliable it is just amazing. Most accomplished players (whatever that means) can do a lot with the CB with minimal effort. But not quite like pro's. No way. It is no wonder their positional play is so good. With a stroke that smooth, mine would be too. We always say 'I can runout like that too'. Yes, but how often? And let's be honest, most of the runouts that we intermediate wannabe advanced/pro players execute have far too much element of luck and uncertainty. We shoot too many harder than necessary shots. Sooner or later we screw up position because of bad stroke. Either we hit it 'too good' and so we pass our intended mark with the CB, or we unconciously squeeze the grip hand slightly thus killing the CB action. It is not that our grips are that bad, it's just that those damn pro's have them perfect. We try to play perfect textbook position, but it just isn't happening.

If confronted against us, pro players spot that quickly, they loosen up even more (because they know they got nothing to fear) and wipe the floor with you.

What is your take on this? Can stroke be vastly improved so that it reaches pro level if you started playing late, around age 25 or so? With only coaching being some books and AZ board? I fear probably not? We'll find out in a decade...

 

[hemicudas]

Recently I attended a tournament where they had mixed field of players:
- majority of players were in intermediate class
- some were advanced players very near pro speed
- then some pro players (most famous names being Tot, Petroni, Foldes...)
- a few beginners as well

I took time to carefully observe players of all calibers. I've always wondered what makes those pro players so much better than rest of us. Is it aiming/shotmaking? Stance/alignment? Position play? Better tactics? Stronger mental game? The stroke?

Well, I think it's all of the above actually, but at least 95% of the difference is in the stroke. To be more precise, the grip hand, not the whole lower arm movement. We all look like pro's when we prepare for the stroke. But the cueball tells a different story.

Their grip control gives them a stroke which is so repeatable and reliable it is just amazing. Most accomplished players (whatever that means) can do a lot with the CB with minimal effort. But not quite like pro's. No way. It is no wonder their positional play is so good. With a stroke that smooth, mine would be too. We always say 'I can runout like that too'. Yes, but how often? And let's be honest, most of the runouts that we intermediate wannabe advanced/pro players execute have far too much element of luck and uncertainty. We shoot too many harder than necessary shots. Sooner or later we screw up position because of bad stroke. Either we hit it 'too good' and so we pass our intended mark with the CB, or we unconciously squeeze the grip hand slightly thus killing the CB action. It is not that our grips are that bad, it's just that those damn pro's have them perfect. We try to play perfect textbook position, but it just isn't happening.

If confronted against us, pro players spot that quickly, they loosen up even more (because they know they got nothing to fear) and wipe the floor with you.

What is your take on this? Can stroke be vastly improved so that it reaches pro level if you started playing late, around age 25 or so? With only coaching being some books and AZ board? I fear probably not? We'll find out in a decade...

Some shortstops have better strokes than top pros. Doesn't mean they play better.

 

[third_i]

I don't really agree with all of that. When I was playing on a regular basis, at a high level, I focused on my stroke as number one priority. At this point I haven't played in a tournament in 3 or so years and might play once a week if not twice a month, sometimes less. Do I still have the same stroke? Yes. What's the difference here, I'm not a pro level player... Passion for perfection. I just don't want to be that good, anymore. I lost the passion for the game. I still have an amazing stroke, very repeated and very accurate but I don't take my time and don't try to feel out the table anymore.

Does that make me a minority? Probably but my point here is that although for the most part you're right but it's certainly not a definitive answer on what makes pros different, there's more elements that you can't see by just watching.

 

[3andstop]

Recently, while doing the normal surfing I visited pro pool video's web site and surfed through some match videos. I came across a gentleman who I've never seen play before and I thought that what I saw was just about the most beautiful stroke I've ever seen. Certainly, in the top 5. Take a look at Mr. Ogburn play these two matches. What a stroke!

http://propoolvideo.com/2001-steve-mizerak-senior-tour/

 

[Blackjack]

If you do not have shooting accuracy, pinpoint position play, flawless patterns, and the ability to think your way through a shot, bad situations, the match,etc... then your stroke won't be a factor. It comes down to strategy and execution. What makes Efren Reyes the best player in the history of pool is NOT his stroke - it is his ability to out-think and out-perform - out-strategize his opponents, the situation, the balls, the table, the fans, the announcers in the booth etc.

I have seen many players that have awesome strokes, but a horrible delivery and hardly any accuracy with the cue ball. The stroke looks smooth, but they never send the cue ball where they want it, and if they do, the object ball doesn't cooperate.

Playing pool at a high level means that you have to operate on many different levels - stroke, balance, bridge, sighting, where to hit the cue ball, where to hit the contact point on the object ball, where to send the object ball, where to send the cue ball, speed control, etc, etc. You have to be operating on all cylinders because if you make one error in judgment, you might end up the chair.

Your stroke doesn't do you much good when you are watching the other guy shoot, but your determination, focus, and ability to remain calm will get you through those rough times. Believe it or not, you need to work on that just as much as you work on your stroke.

Just for fun, here is a look at both sides of the "STROKE" and "MECHANICS" spectrum.

Strokes that are hard to look at ... lol

Allen Hopkins (pokey)
Allen has that pokey stroke but it gets the job done. It has always amazed me how he gets maximum control with mimimal effort. Allen has almost no back swing at all. I have tried to duplicate his stroke many times to try and figure it out. I never could. It is truly mindboggling, but hey it works for him!

Mike Davis (umm... he's not a product of RandyG, that's for sure!)
Mike's stance and stroke are nowhere near textbook, but his accuracy and attention to detail when delivering the cue ball is at a level above and beyond every other player in the world. Nobody practices as hard as Mike. He practices almost as much as Nick Varner - hours and hours on the table working on everything.

Cisero Murphy (J-hook slip stroke style of delivery... ugggg-leee!)
Cisero Murphy did not have the luxury of a BCA Instructor to evaluate his stoke mechanics. He passed away 11 years ago, but how he was able to do the things he did with that style of stroke still has a lot of us scratching our heads.

Keith McCready (Side arm... its everywhere... but its like he NEVER misses)
IMO, nobody makes the cue ball dance any sweeter than Keith McCready. His side arm stroke is the product of sticking with what worked for him in the very beginning of his playing career. If you ever get to see Keith play, watch the way he is able to utilize inside english to control the cue ball - and how he spins it and manipulates it to do whatever he wants it to do... its some wicked $hit to witness!BTW... Keith is able to do all of that with his natural ability - which btw is off the scale!

Perfect strokes...

Jeff Carter (Fundamental perfection)
Jeff's mechanics are second only to his strategic mastery in almost every game you can play on a pool table. The strength of Jeff's game is often overlooked because he hasn't won a lot of titles like Sigel or Archer. If you ever get to see Jeff in action, behold the touch of the master's hand. It is the closest to perfection that I have ever seen.

Steve Mizerak (Poetry in motion)
Nobody stroked the ball like Steve. This was covered in another thread last week. Get some tape of The Miz and watch how he sets up and slides into his stance, then watch how he stares down the cue. Pure magic!

John Schmidt (Solid as a rock)
John's stance and stroke mechanics are phenomenally solid. If a two-ton dump truck came crashing through the pool hall and hit the table that John Schmidt was shooting at, John's elbow position and stroke tempo would probably never change. I don't think I need to say any more about that. The man is a machine.

Larry Nevel (S-T-R-E-N-G-T-H)
Larry has been stricken with awesome power and accuracy combined with unbelievable control. This only affects possibly 1 in every 5 million players. If you discover these symptoms in your own game, don't seek the assitance of a physician... find a good backer and take the show on the road.

 

[third_i]

If you do not have shooting accuracy, pinpoint position play, flawless patterns, and the ability to think your way through a shot, bad situations, the match,etc... then your stroke won't be a factor. It comes down to strategy and execution. What makes Efren Reyes the best player in the history of pool is NOT his stroke - it is his ability to out-think and out-perform - out-strategize his opponents, the situation, the balls, the table, the fans, the announcers in the booth etc.

I have seen many players that have awesome strokes, but a horrible delivery and hardly any accuracy with the cue ball. The stroke looks smooth, but they never send the cue ball where they want it, and if they do, the object ball doesn't cooperate.

Playing pool at a high level means that you have to operate on many different levels - stroke, balance, bridge, sighting, where to hit the cue ball, where to hit the contact point on the object ball, where to send the object ball, where to send the cue ball, speed control, etc, etc. You have to be operating on all cylinders because if you make one error in judgment, you might end up the chair.

Your stroke doesn't do you much good when you are watching the other guy shoot, but your determination, focus, and ability to remain calm will get you through those rough times. Believe it or not, you need to work on that just as much as you work on your stroke.

Just for fun, here is a look at both sides of the "STROKE" and "MECHANICS" spectrum.

Strokes that are hard to look at ... lol

Allen Hopkins (pokey)
Allen has that pokey stroke but it gets the job done. It has always amazed me how he gets maximum control with mimimal effort. Allen has almost no back swing at all. I have tried to duplicate his stroke many times to try and figure it out. I never could. It is truly mindboggling, but hey it works for him!

Mike Davis (umm... he's not a product of RandyG, that's for sure!)
Mike's stance and stroke are nowhere near textbook, but his accuracy and attention to detail when delivering the cue ball is at a level above and beyond every other player in the world. Nobody practices as hard as Mike. He practices almost as much as Nick Varner - hours and hours on the table working on everything.

Cisero Murphy (J-hook slip stroke style of delivery... ugggg-leee!)
Cisero Murphy did not have the luxury of a BCA Instructor to evaluate his stoke mechanics. He passed away 11 years ago, but how he was able to do the things he did with that style of stroke still has a lot of us scratching our heads.

Keith McCready (Side arm... its everywhere... but its like he NEVER misses)
IMO, nobody makes the cue ball dance any sweeter than Keith McCready. His side arm stroke is the product of sticking with what worked for him in the very beginning of his playing career. If you ever get to see Keith play, watch the way he is able to utilize inside english to control the cue ball - and how he spins it and manipulates it to do whatever he wants it to do... its some wicked $hit to witness!BTW... Keith is able to do all of that with his natural ability - which btw is off the scale!

Perfect strokes...

Jeff Carter (Fundamental perfection)
Jeff's mechanics are second only to his strategic mastery in almost every game you can play on a pool table. The strength of Jeff's game is often overlooked because he hasn't won a lot of titles like Sigel or Archer. If you ever get to see Jeff in action, behold the touch of the master's hand. It is the closest to perfection that I have ever seen.

Steve Mizerak (Poetry in motion)
Nobody stroked the ball like Steve. This was covered in another thread last week. Get some tape of The Miz and watch how he sets up and slides into his stance, then watch how he stares down the cue. Pure magic!

John Schmidt (Solid as a rock)
John's stance and stroke mechanics are phenomenally solid. If a two-ton dump truck came crashing through the pool hall and hit the table that John Schmidt was shooting at, John's elbow position and stroke tempo would probably never change. I don't think I need to say any more about that. The man is a machine.

Larry Nevel (S-T-R-E-N-G-T-H)
Larry has been stricken with awesome power and accuracy combined with unbelievable control. This only affects possibly 1 in every 5 million players. If you discover these symptoms in your own game, don't seek the assitance of a physician... find a good backer and take the show on the road.

Very good post, you hit on many points that I didn't take the time to hit on. Many pros don't have that pure, pretty stroke and heck some great non-pros have pretty ugly strokes too but it gets the job done. Billiards is like chess, good players make balls but great players position balls and make their opponent work. The more cunning the player is the more they will normally come out on top.

 

[predator]

I have seen many players that have awesome strokes, but a horrible delivery and hardly any accuracy with the cue ball. The stroke looks smooth, but they never send the cue ball where they want it, and if they do, the object ball doesn't cooperate.

Oops, now you described a whole lot of players trying to improve. That's what I was trying to point out. If cueball keeps getting to wrong destinations, then that stroke is not all that reliable, regardless of how it appears.

I know everybody likes to point out how guys like Keith have funny strokes, but...looking at him...that cueball control is mind boggling. Whatever he does, it must be correct for him.

And then there are players with great to watch extreme power strokes. Larry N. and Corey D. I don't believe that Efren can draw the cueball as far as those two, but in an actual game Efren should win because his position play is better, right?

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Their grip control gives them a stroke which is so repeatable and reliable it is just amazing. ...

Maybe I missed it, but could you explain this part? In what way are the top players' grips different?

 

[Williebetmore]

Is it aiming/shotmaking? Stance/alignment? Position play? Better tactics? Stronger mental game? The stroke?

Well, I think it's all of the above actually, but at least 95% of the difference is in the stroke.

Predator,
I'm VERY doubtful that it is the stroke - that's the easy part. You can buy one of those strokes from one of the stroke guru's (Mark Wilson, Jerry Briesath, etc.). It takes a bunch of lessons and a couple of years of DEDICATED and PROPER practice. Then you are ready to start learning how to play pool.

In an hour or two of proper and guided practice daily there is no reason why a true student of the game can not achieve a level very close to professional...but you have to want it, and you have to do it in an intelligent fashion; it will not happen automatically with time.

 

[JAM]

It's in the way that you use it,
It comes and it goes.
It's in the way that you use it,
Boy don't you know...



JAM

 

[Williebetmore]

P.S. - Oops, I lost the last bit of my post. Getting one of those pretty, powerful strokes IS however the best shortcut to getting good in the least amount of time; but not sufficient by itself. It is a great way to start.

 

[sjm]

I reckon the game is half conceptualization and half execution. Having a good stroke is probably 70% of the execution equation, so I reckon it is 35% of the pool excellence equation. Certainly not 95%.

I'll defer to Blackjack's post, in which he made many of the points I'd have made.

 

[predator]

Maybe I missed it, but could you explain this part? In what way are the top players' grips different?

When they have to do extra work with the CB (a long draw or a 3 cushion follow for example) in a high pressure match situations, their grips stay loose just like it is on a simple short stop shot.

Almost every lower level player will squeeze his grip hand a little bit if confronted with the same situation. You could hear by the sound of tip/CB contact that the stroke was not hit smooth at all. We all try to stay smooth in all match situations, but it just isn't happening...unless you're a pro.

 

[PoolSponge]

You can easily compare pro pool players strokes to a pro golfer. Although many can look very different at the various points of the stroke/swing the one unifying factor is how they are at the delivery point. All pros, in either sport, are perfect or nearly so, in the impact zone. Not only are they in proper alignment, but they maintain their plane each time they hit the ball. The consistancy in their stroke, regardless of how it looks, adds to their ability to evaluate the outcome of any given shot. Add that to their knowledge and nerve, and now you have the separation between pro's and those trying to be.

IMHO

 

[cuetechasaurus]

It's not just the stroke. There are a whole lot of other aspects, but they all basically boil down to being able to send the cueball to just about exactly where they are aiming, (in shotmaking and position play) time after time. People can do that even with a "bad" stroke. The game requires great hand eye coordination, a clear head, and a heart that really hungers to win IMHO.

 

[TATE]

Recently I attended a tournament where they had mixed field of players:
- majority of players were in intermediate class
- some were advanced players very near pro speed
- then some pro players (most famous names being Tot, Petroni, Foldes...)
- a few beginners as well

I took time to carefully observe players of all calibers. I've always wondered what makes those pro players so much better than rest of us. Is it aiming/shotmaking? Stance/alignment? Position play? Better tactics? Stronger mental game? The stroke?

Well, I think it's all of the above actually, but at least 95% of the difference is in the stroke. To be more precise, the grip hand, not the whole lower arm movement. We all look like pro's when we prepare for the stroke. But the cueball tells a different story.

Their grip control gives them a stroke which is so repeatable and reliable it is just amazing. Most accomplished players (whatever that means) can do a lot with the CB with minimal effort. But not quite like pro's. No way. It is no wonder their positional play is so good. With a stroke that smooth, mine would be too. We always say 'I can runout like that too'. Yes, but how often? And let's be honest, most of the runouts that we intermediate wannabe advanced/pro players execute have far too much element of luck and uncertainty. We shoot too many harder than necessary shots. Sooner or later we screw up position because of bad stroke. Either we hit it 'too good' and so we pass our intended mark with the CB, or we unconciously squeeze the grip hand slightly thus killing the CB action. It is not that our grips are that bad, it's just that those damn pro's have them perfect. We try to play perfect textbook position, but it just isn't happening.

If confronted against us, pro players spot that quickly, they loosen up even more (because they know they got nothing to fear) and wipe the floor with you.

What is your take on this? Can stroke be vastly improved so that it reaches pro level if you started playing late, around age 25 or so? With only coaching being some books and AZ board? I fear probably not? We'll find out in a decade...

The good stroke you see is what a good players game evolves into as the finest coordination develops. But honestly, it's the knowledge and the coordination, not the pretty stroke. I've seen very knowledgeable players win with what appear to be terrible strokes. Their strokes all have one thing in common: they are repeatable and under very, very fine motor control.

Chris

 

[whitewolf]

......
Mike Davis (umm... he's not a product of RandyG, that's for sure!)
Mike's stance and stroke are nowhere near textbook, but his accuracy and attention to detail when delivering the cue ball is at a level above and beyond every other player in the world. Nobody practices as hard as Mike. He practices almost as much as Nick Varner - hours and hours on the table working on everything. ....

Mike's stroke is actually perfect because it comes back perfectly straight EVERY TIME, and it comes through the ball straight EVERY TIME. This is why Mike is so accurate on long shots. I would rather have Mike shooting a long shot for me vs. any of the other pros you mentioned with crooked strokes. Maybe this is what you were saying - 'accuracy' and 'delivering'.

For the other players with crooked or bad strokes as you mentioned, what one should be thinking is just how much better these guys could have been with good strokes? Now Allen Hopkins may bring the cue back straight, so he could be in the same category as Mike Davis. Granted they all must have followed through straight, but their life was made much tougher because they did not have a great stroke.

Like you said, all the other skills are very important, but the good stroke is paramount IMHO. To discount it so much is a FATAL mistake to anyone trying to get good at pool. JMHO.

 

[crosseyedjoe]

Recently I attended a tournament where they had mixed field of players:
- majority of players were in intermediate class
- some were advanced players very near pro speed
- then some pro players (most famous names being Tot, Petroni, Foldes...)
- a few beginners as well

I took time to carefully observe players of all calibers. I've always wondered what makes those pro players so much better than rest of us. Is it aiming/shotmaking? Stance/alignment? Position play? Better tactics? Stronger mental game? The stroke?

Well, I think it's all of the above actually, but at least 95% of the difference is in the stroke. To be more precise, the grip hand, not the whole lower arm movement. We all look like pro's when we prepare for the stroke. But the cueball tells a different story.

Their grip control gives them a stroke which is so repeatable and reliable it is just amazing. Most accomplished players (whatever that means) can do a lot with the CB with minimal effort. But not quite like pro's. No way. It is no wonder their positional play is so good. With a stroke that smooth, mine would be too. We always say 'I can runout like that too'. Yes, but how often? And let's be honest, most of the runouts that we intermediate wannabe advanced/pro players execute have far too much element of luck and uncertainty. We shoot too many harder than necessary shots. Sooner or later we screw up position because of bad stroke. Either we hit it 'too good' and so we pass our intended mark with the CB, or we unconciously squeeze the grip hand slightly thus killing the CB action. It is not that our grips are that bad, it's just that those damn pro's have them perfect. We try to play perfect textbook position, but it just isn't happening.

If confronted against us, pro players spot that quickly, they loosen up even more (because they know they got nothing to fear) and wipe the floor with you.

What is your take on this? Can stroke be vastly improved so that it reaches pro level if you started playing late, around age 25 or so? With only coaching being some books and AZ board? I fear probably not? We'll find out in a decade...

All I know is that if you are still thinking about your stroke then your are not yet there. Once your stroke is second nature to you, it really doesn't matter if your stroke is text-book like Archer or rollercoaster like Reyes.

 

[Blackjack]

Mike's stroke is actually perfect because it comes back perfectly straight EVERY TIME, and it comes through the ball straight EVERY TIME. This is why Mike is so accurate on long shots. I would rather have Mike shooting a long shot for me vs. any of the other pros you mentioned with crooked strokes. Maybe this is what you were saying - 'accuracy' and 'delivering'.

For the other players with crooked or bad strokes as you mentioned, what one should be thinking is just how much better these guys could have been with good strokes? Now Allen Hopkins may bring the cue back straight, so he could be in the same category as Mike Davis. Granted they all must have followed through straight, but their life was made much tougher because they did not have a great stroke.

Like you said, all the other skills are very important, but the good stroke is paramount IMHO. To discount it so much is a FATAL mistake to anyone trying to get good at pool. JMHO.

I never discounted anything about Mike, his stroke, or his accuracy, nor did I discount the importance of developing a consistent stroke accompanied by great mechanics. When it comes to proper mechanics, there are exceptions to the rule. Mike Davis is one of them, Keith McCready is another.