Pros today vs the pros yesterday

JoeyInCali

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
From watching videos for decades now ( and tournaments) , it is undeniable the pros today are just insanely straight shooters.
The pockets in the Spanish Open were tiny and I saw these monsters shoot long shots like nothing.
The pros today shoot straighter than their former peers as a group.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Boxers today are terrible compared to the 70's and 80's greats. You have bums winning multiple titles now.
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Bowlers of today are no better than those from decades ago...but their equipment is head and shoulders better. Today's bowler don't put the ball into the 1-3 pocket any better, but the chemical makeup of their balls help increase pin action. Also, if you really pay attention, you'll see today's bowlers throw more poorly executed shots as a whole compared to yesteryear.
 
I think we need to be careful here. Yes, there are more straight shooters in the game than ever before. Not even guys like Strickland and Lassiter shot straighter than Gorst, Filler, Kaci and Shaw.

On the other hand, although the position paths are a little better today on average than those of the last generation, have we ever seen a better pattern player than Rempe, Hall or Souquet? I'd say no.

I think the old timers played better short position than today's pros by a little (probably because straight pool demanded it), but the pros of today play better long and complex position shots than those of yesterday by a mile. Interestingly enough, the best short position player of these times might well be John Schmidt, whose focus usually lays in the game of straight pool.

The old timers were better defensive payers than those of today, as well. Pool's three best defensive cueists of all time are surely Reyes, Pagulayan and Varner and yet there's no heir apparent to their level of defensive wizardry.

Today's players are better than any we've ever seen, but they are not better in every single area of the game. Give the old-timers their due.
 
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I watched a recent match on video a few months ago which was as fine of play as I can remember seeing ever. These were maybe top twenty players. I haven't watched enough to see if other players have stepped up too, probably so.

For decades I really didn't see improved play. A combination of poor shot selection sometimes and poor cue ball control. I saw this at the highest levels up until a few years ago. I think the glass fast equipment was part of the issue but players overconfidence in their abilities to get around a table in heavy traffic was a part too. They often took/take harder shots to get the cue ball to exactly the same place. This gets them in trouble when they could have taken other routes with no risk.

To be blunt, newer players might have shot straighter on the equipment of recent years but the older players played smarter. Today's skills along with a little more thought given to play has or will bring play to a level never before seen other than for moments in time.

Hu
 
sjm said:
I think we need to be careful here. Yes, there are more straight shooters in the game than ever before. Not even guys like Strickland and Lassiter shot straighter than Gorst, Filler, Kaci and Shaw.

On the other hand, although the position paths are a little better today on average than those of the last generation, have we ever seen a better pattern player than Rempe, Hall or Souquet? I'd say no.

I think the old timers played better short position than today's pros by a little (probably because straight pool demanded it), but the pros of today play better long and complex position shots than those of yesterday by a mile. Interestingly enough, the best short position player of these times might well be John Schmidt, whose focus usually lay in the game of straight pool.

The old timers were better defensive payers than those of today, as well. Pool's three best defensive cueists of all time are surely Reyes, Pagulayan and Varner and yet there's no heir apparent to their level of defensive wizardry.

Today's players are better than any we've ever seen, but they are not better in every single area of the game. give the old-timers their due.
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Kaci has as good of patterns as anyone ever.
 
I disagree. I think the players have the same top gear. There are just more of them we are aware of due to organized international play. Humans don’t change.

The areas today’s pros are better is jumping and breaking. But that is due to the jump cue and repeatable racks.

Transplant a prime Buddy Hall, Sigel, Strickland, Mosconi, Caras, etc, to today, give them 3 months practice with racking, breaking, and Diamond cushions, and they will be right at the top.
 
iusedtoberich said:
I disagree. I think the players have the same top gear. There are just more of them we are aware of due to organized international play. Humans don’t change.

The areas today’s pros are better is jumping and breaking. But that is due to the jump cue and repeatable racks.

Transplant a prime Buddy Hall, Sigel, Strickland, Mosconi, Caras, etc, to today, give them 3 months practice with racking, breaking, and Diamond cushions, and they will be right at the top.
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Caras and Mosconi?
Doubt it. They had flawed mechanics.
Sigel's fidgety style wouldn't work with the shot clock.
 
JoeyInCali said:
From watching videos for decades now ( and tournaments) , it is undeniable the pros today are just insanely straight shooters.
The pockets in the Spanish Open were tiny and I saw these monsters shoot long shots like nothing.
The pros today shoot straighter than their former peers as a group.
Click to expand...

Yes but they are less fun to watch. Possibly also due to the slight tighter rules for behavior and more discipline. The banter of Sigel or Mataya would not fly with a modern ref and TV tournament setup, they would get a warning to keep their yaps shut. If I had to pick a decade of pool vides to watch for the rest of my life, I would probably pick the 1990s. Still enough "old school" banter and players, but modern enough for the rules and tables.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Caras and Mosconi?
Doubt it. They had flawed mechanics.
Sigel's fidgety style wouldn't work with the shot clock.
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Agreed. Many of the previous generations' players had flawed mechanics that limited their abilities. That's why when you watch these old matches you see a level of play that is decidedly lower than today's. If you transplant a top player from yesteryear in their prime, then you have a 770ish fargo player today, which is a strong player but not a top player.

If you take a baby Sigel/Varner/Mosconi/etc and move their birthdate up to 2000 to get trained like today's pros have been, then yes they'd be as good as anyone.

Also, the game is more global now. 40 years ago all the top players were Americans. Now with Europe and the Middle East and Asia developing top talent there's more great players. I think it would be a shock for some of the previous generation's top players, even if they got the benefit of modern training/development methods, to find themselves not actually at the top.
 
I agree! The top pros of today have really found ways to separate themselves from the pack. This applies to the men and women.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Kaci has as good of patterns as anyone ever.
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Don't agree. Pattern play consists of managing both the angle and the distance from the object ball.

In fact, the greatest pocketers have almost never been the most precise pattern players for the perfectly good reason that they never needed to be and that, for them, it was not necessarily the best percentage.

The greatest pocketers were always willing to leave a little extra distance to make absolutely sure of the right side of the ball for the next shot. This style has sometimes been called "cinching the angle" and Strickland, Filler and Kaci all play/played that way because, for them, it represents the highest percentage.

Kaci doesn't play the position angles with the precision of Fedor Gorst and is not, on average, getting as close to the next object ball. If somebody asked me whose game, of the two, they should study to learn what almost perfect pattern play looks like, I'll tell them to study Gorst over Kaci.

Yes, Kaci's amazing, but he's not the best pattern player out there. Kaci's approach to running out is very similar to that of Strickland in his prime.
 
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Rocket354 said:
Agreed. Many of the previous generations' players had flawed mechanics that limited their abilities. That's why when you watch these old matches you see a level of play that is decidedly lower than today's. If you transplant a top player from yesteryear in their prime, then you have a 770ish fargo player today, which is a strong player but not a top player.

If you take a baby Sigel/Varner/Mosconi/etc and move their birthdate up to 2000 to get trained like today's pros have been, then yes they'd be as good as anyone.

Also, the game is more global now. 40 years ago all the top players were Americans. Now with Europe and the Middle East and Asia developing top talent there's more great players. I think it would be a shock for some of the previous generation's top players, even if they got the benefit of modern training/development methods, to find themselves not actually at the top.
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I don't know about this. Regardless of mechanics, IMO Mosconi was one of the most naturally talented athletes ever. I had the good fortune to see him play twice in person, and when he was in rhythm his pool game was poetry. Sure, the game was different, but he dominated 14.1 for many years.

-dj
 
Maniac said:
Bowlers of today are no better than those from decades ago...but their equipment is head and shoulders better. Today's bowler don't put the ball into the 1-3 pocket any better, but the chemical makeup of their balls help increase pin action. Also, if you really pay attention, you'll see today's bowlers throw more poorly executed shots as a whole compared to yesteryear.
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Bowlers back in the day didn't cradle bowl.
 
Here's an example, Marc the player in the Spanish Final.
Made a GREAT shot on the purple ball to get out in the 1st game.
He broke the second rack, and was puttin' the rack together, he got a Little long on the 4 ball, being a Snooker player, hey these pockets are Buckets.
HE'S SUPPOSED TO ROLL FORWARD, COME TWO RAILS OUT rolling along.... ''HOLDING THE NATURAL SHOT LINE'' .
He's almost straight in on the 4 ball, around 3.18 minutes into the finals, alls needed, get over to his left about 3'.
He got sloppy, he should of gotten Much closer to the 4 but it's ''still'' ;) a cinch shot ;) nope HE/ overspun cue ball.... & hung the 4 in the jaws.
The table was there.
He should have been up 2-0 and breaking.

This second game error, cost him the match.
bm
 
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