Pros today vs the pros yesterday

[Dave714]

The majority of today's players play considerably slower.

 

[L.S. Dennis]

The equipment has made the 2 different generations not really comparable. Slower cloth and cushions, inconsistent balls and racks and shaft technology have all made for this.

Would a player from the 90s ever in 1 million years take a touchy table length cut, cue ball is 3” off the rail, high right, 3 rail position on the 9? Hell no, so why ever practice it? Skid, throw, humidity, cloth that wasn’t necessarily new for the tournament, your opponent is smoking, bad lighting… Longer shots with funny position were an automatic safe for most mortals that were born on planet earth.

That shot while very tough, is much more routine today because it takes MUCH less stroke these days to pull off. Having to stroke a long shot with worse conditions makes for a harder game than fantastic equipment but tight pockets. Super stupid high right fire it in is now high right with medium speed.

Go to a 5” pocket table with bar room cloth and shit lighting and fire in 10 long cut stroke shots and see how many you make. Now go to a 4 1/4” modern table and led lights and try for the same position. If I had to make that shot in 1 try or have Santiago beat my knee in with a claw hammer, I know which table I’m taking and which table I’m saying F all that to. And todays top pros would likely say the same thing.

Modern players shoot longer shots more routinely because inarguably, it takes less skill to get position from far away than it used be so they get more practice at it. They aren’t automatic safetys like they used to be.

Give prime Nick 3 months of practice on a blue label Diamond with modern equipment and YouTube access and I can promise you, nobody would like ANY of it. He would give any top pro all they could handle. He may only need 1 piece of gum.

The game is apples to oranges now.

I suspect that there is some truth here, seems with the exception of the tighter pockets on today's Diamond tables the players might have it a wee bit easier that the 'old guard' did back in the day. Today's equipment is so much better and easier to play on, (again with exception of the aforementioned pockets specs) with the today's cloth, carbon fiber shafts, templets that rack the balls snot tight etc. I remember seeing a lot of dry breaks back in the day even with the one on the spot and the breaker breaking anywhere in the kitchen because of the old wooden racks they were using that always seemed to cause problems getting the balls tight. Many a time did I see players pounding the balls in the rack under the watchful eye of Scott Smith and they still came up dry on the break. So yes I think it was a tougher game back then but I also agree that it's impossible to cross compare generations of pool players. I'm not saying that today's players are worse than yesterday's players or visa versa. Probably like the poster said if you could fast forward a 30 year old Nick or Earl to 2023 give a little time to adjust to today's equipment they might be just as good in today's battlefield. All this being said, let's just savor the memories of our legends and enjoy the spectacular players of today as well!

 

[Dan White]

I suspect that there is some truth here, seems with the exception of the tighter pockets on today's Diamond tables the players might have it a wee bit easier that the 'old guard' did back in the day. Today's equipment is so much better and easier to play on, (again with exception of the aforementioned pockets specs) with the today's cloth, carbon fiber shafts, templets that rack the balls snot tight etc.

Mosconi and Crane both hold the record of 309 on a 10' table. It seems to me the pockets on those old tables were pretty tight, but I don't recall exactly where I read that. Does anybody here know?

 

[Texas Carom Club]

Counterexample to your point: Efren playing balkline...

Efren is a legend in pool, but I estimate that there are thousands of players that he couldn't hang with playing straight rail, one rail, balkline, and three cushion...in large part just because he hasn't developed the mechanics for carom billiards.

ill second this. in this video i didnt see efren gain and hold the line position , never seen the whole game but you know what i mean,

i have seen him get beaten by a viet 3c player in a 1band final by a large margin , he didnt make 10 points

ive always wanted to see all the carom players and rooms in the phillipines that they speak of because i love the game.but never seen a video or photo but there are claims of big carom championships in several disciplines from efrens country and many many players.
cant recall one pinnoy in international tournaments in all that ive scowered over the yrs
other than the big south asian carom tournaments

 

[pvc lou]

ill second this. in this video i didnt see efren gain and hold the line position , never seen the whole game but you know what i mean,

i have seen him get beaten by a viet 3c player in a 1band final by a large margin , he didnt make 10 points

ive always wanted to see all the carom players and rooms in the phillipines that they speak of because i love the game.but never seen a video or photo but there are claims of big carom championships in several disciplines from efrens country and many many players.
cant recall one pinnoy in international tournaments in all that ive scowered over the yrs
other than the big south asian carom tournaments

I showed this video to Willy Gérimont a few weeks ago...he came to our club to give a two day seminar. He was not too impressed.

He didn't mention the Philippines, but he said the carom scene in Vietnam is insane.

 

[Texas Carom Club]

I showed this video to Willy Gérimont a few weeks ago...he came to our club to give a two day seminar. He was not too impressed.

He didn't mention the Philippines, but he said the carom scene in Vietnam is insane.

you lucky dog! i was born on the wrong side of the world
willy is great, and probably an awesome guy to know
he recently went with xavier over there for some training and exhibitions, seen xavier posting it
yes vietnam and korea carom is large and in charge

 

[sjm]

Mosconi and Crane both hold the record of 309 on a 10' table. It seems to me the pockets on those old tables were pretty tight, but I don't recall exactly where I read that. Does anybody here know?

They were most likely 4 3/4", fairly tight by the standards of those times, but not by ours.

 

[pvc lou]

you lucky dog! i was born on the wrong side of the world
willy is great, and probably an awesome guy to know
he recently went with xavier over there for some training and exhibitions, seen xavier posting it
yes vietnam and korea carom is large and in charge

I'm a native Houstonian, just like you, amigo. I was lucky to get my goofy butt to France to finish my schooling and work for a while.

I'm here for another year, so let me know if you want to come out for a week and play some billiards out here. I have an extra mattress.

Willy is a cool dude, and his knowledge is incredible. One thing that really impressed me that weekend was that the best player in Lyon, Fabio Venditelli, who is a master in multiple disciplines and older than Willy and friends with him, participated as a student in the seminar. It was a lot of fun.

 

[sjm]

The majority of today's players play considerably slower.

Absolutely right, and it's the fault tournament directors and referees, who have done far too little to do something about it for years. I'd suggest that two thirds of the players have slow pre-shot routines these days.

The thirty second shot clock helps a lot, but use of the forty second shot clock amounts to an announcement that slow play will be tolerated.

Pool will wake up one day and understand that fans don't like slow play. Baseball, which had lived in denial, learned this lesson the hard way, and viewership dropped, but rules changes implemented for the first time this year concerning how long a pitcher has to throw a pitch, have greatly improved the professional baseball product from an entertainment standpoint.

 

[Texas Carom Club]

I'm a native Houstonian, just like you, amigo. I was lucky to get my goofy butt to France to finish my schooling and work for a while.

I'm here for another year, so let me know if you want to come out for a week and play some billiards out here. I have an extra mattress.

Willy is a cool dude, and his knowledge is incredible. One thing that really impressed me that weekend was that the best player in Lyon, Fabio Venditelli, who is a master in multiple disciplines and older than Willy and friends with him, participated as a student in the seminar. It was a lot of fun.

That sounds too good to pass up I need to make plans

 

[pvc lou]

That sounds too good to pass up I need to make plans

Start working on your French, panocha breath. lol

 

[L.S. Dennis]

Mosconi and Crane both hold the record of 309 on a 10' table. It seems to me the pockets on those old tables were pretty tight, but I don't recall exactly where I read that. Does anybody here know?

I remember reading about that 309 number reached by both Crane and Mosconi. As I recall Willie ran the 309 only to find out that Irving had already reached that number. I have no idea how big the pockets were on that table.

 

[hang-the-9]

The majority of today's players play considerably slower.

That is probably true, but I bet it's due to the fact there is better training with emphasis on fundamentals and mechanics vs "have a cue, go gamble till you are good" training of 40 years ago, so the players take more time to setup and pick the right shot.

 

[hang-the-9]

I'm a native Houstonian, just like you, amigo. I was lucky to get my goofy butt to France to finish my schooling and work for a while.

I'm here for another year, so let me know if you want to come out for a week and play some billiards out here. I have an extra mattress.

Willy is a cool dude, and his knowledge is incredible. One thing that really impressed me that weekend was that the best player in Lyon, Fabio Venditelli, who is a master in multiple disciplines and older than Willy and friends with him, participated as a student in the seminar. It was a lot of fun.

I would love to hear that a Texan accent mixed with French would sound like LOL

 

[hang-the-9]

Darn right. Greatness is and will always be measured in titles.

I would put another side to this, greatness may not always be equal to outright skill at whatever the player is doing. I think that during some commentary that Incardona did (and we all would agree he was a sharp guy that knew what he was talking about) he said that there are some players that have the best "stuff" but don't end up winning as much as others, he used a baseball analogy to baseball pitchers. I think maybe they were talking about Bustie or somebody like that, when they were talking about talent and skill that did not come out into as many tournaments wins as you would think they had.

 

[sjm]

I would put another side to this, greatness may not always be equal to outright skill at whatever the player is doing. I think that during some commentary that Incardona did (and we all would agree he was a sharp guy that knew what he was talking about) he said that there are some players that have the best "stuff" but don't end up winning as much as others, he used a baseball analogy to baseball pitchers. I think maybe they were talking about Bustie or somebody like that, when they were talking about talent and skill that did not come out into as many tournaments wins as you would think they had.

Agreed 100%. Well said.

 

[justnum]

The cultural representation of the pro pool community today is more diverse internationally.
The direct engagement with pros on social media is a blessing.

Imagine in 1878 people were telling the same stories they are today. Back then it was only word of mouth gossip. Today someone posts on social media, instant global distribution.

Today's pros are talking about real issues. Visas, being a parent, life on the road and the life changing documentation along their journey. Fedor and Kristina were banned. Filipinos over stay visa and get penalized. There is a visible pool community today's pros have because of technology. It puts a spotlight on what its like to be from different places.

Online pro streamers are talking about pool in more languages than ever. The players today have created a global cultural exchange about pool. Funny animals playing pool videos to Asians cheating at the table vids.

Pool is like the borg, fast and quick to adapt to the newest and greatest technology.

Pro pool today has represented many countries and is continuing with its expansion into the future. Matchroom is leading that expansion. What is Emily's dream for the pro pool player career? Does she see Olympics or does she see other events?

Matchroom has WWE aspirations and it is going well, as sports entertainment.

 

[pt109]

Keith McCready has/had the worst mechanics of just about every top player ever.
But he sure made it work for him.

I don’t think McCready’s mechanics were bad….I judge a player by watching the CUE between his bridge hand and the cue ball….Keith rang all the bells.

 

[hang-the-9]

I don’t think McCready’s mechanics were bad….I judge a player by watching the CUE between his bridge hand and the cue ball….Keith rang all the bells.

His results were good. His mechanics were bad. There is a difference between the two. It goes to one of the sayings I use when I explain stance and bridge, etc.. to players that are learning, "you want to play good because of your mechanics not in spite of them". He had good results in spite of being in an awkward position when shooting that would make 99% of all players max out at a C or B level. Bustie, Hopkins, Kennedy, a few others, all had quicks in their mechanics that every pool instructor would try to weed out of a student, yet it worked for those players as a final result. It's like the called pocket rules, you can either make it in directly as intended, or you can miss, have the ball go 3 rails and still go in the pocket you called. Both ways are counted as a made ball, only one of them was the "correct" way to make it. Which of the two ways do we practice when trying to make a ball (and I mean normal play not banks or some specialty shot for those that try to be technical LOL)?

 

[pt109]

His results were good. His mechanics were bad. There is a difference between the two. It goes to one of the sayings I use when I explain stance and bridge, etc.. to players that are learning, "you want to play good because of your mechanics not in spite of them". He had good results in spite of being in an awkward position when shooting that would make 99% of all players max out at a C or B level. Bustie, Hopkins, Kennedy, a few others, all had quicks in their mechanics that every pool instructor would try to weed out of a student, yet it worked for those players as a final result. It's like the called pocket rules, you can either make it in directly as intended, or you can miss, have the ball go 3 rails and still go in the pocket you called. Both ways are counted as a made ball, only one of them was the "correct" way to make it. Which of the two ways do we practice when trying to make a ball (and I mean normal play not banks or some specialty shot for those that try to be technical LOL)?

The reality of every shot is you must hit the cue ball with the cue. So if you take care of that, you will have success.
The stance is getting your balance….gotta find it in all positions…table in your way, jacked up…etc.
Even aiming is intuitive…other than dead in shots, there are a lot of factors….especially when you use side spin.
I‘ve seen a lot of players who stopped improving because they wouldn’t let go of their training wheels.