Pros turning their backs on English?

What gets me is seeing newer players using English, and they don't really know why...just that someone told them to do it. I try to explain to them that before they can play a solid game with English, they need to learn to shoot center ball first. You have to have a clear understanding of the angles from the center point of the CB before you can fully understand the nuances that English can bring in manipulating those angles slightly.

I know that when I was going through those dreaded 'plateau' periods, I would reduce or eliminate my use of English and play strictly center ball. Believe it or not, a complete game CAN be played without any English whatsoever. These days, because I have a better understanding of just when and exactly what the English can do for me in any given position, I don't experience these frustrating 'plateau' moments nearly as much as I used to...and the duration is much shorter.

I am of the mind that any new player to the game MUST learn ALL the basics to the game first, and that includes shooting center ball. Once a player has a solid center ball foundation, it makes learning and understanding the English much, much more beneficial.

Just my $.02 worth.

Lisa
 
sidespin

I can believe it Blackball.I can see this happening as a trend.Not like a bunch of pros got together and had a round table discussion about it.There is so much info and video out there if a top player can see others having success with center ball they might work on it themselves.

A local player in my area pretty much convinced me of the merits of center ball play.I practice center ball but haven't incorporated it in my game yet.

I do think you have to use enough side spin to stay comfortable with it,the goal of course is not to eliminate english altogether.
 
TATE said:
I will say that the players who can stick closer to the center of the ball will find themselves playing a much simpler game than those who go to the edges.
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Ya but where's fun it that :D

Hidy Ho <-- reaching into his wallet to pay ... again!!!
 
Hidy Ho said:
Ya but where's fun it that :D

Hidy Ho <-- reaching into his wallet to pay ... again!!!
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Working the middle of the ball minimizes variables and increases ones percentages of making shots/shape more consistently. The more out of line you get the more you may need off center spin to get to where your going. Buddy Hall worked the vertical/middle axis of whitey better than anyone I've ever seen and his ability has never been in question.
 
Lot of valid points here. I stay close to the middle of the CB on almost all my shots, I use english oh, maybe 25-35% depending on the game, table and so on. I do agree with tate you can play a solid game with little english, I know it because I've been doing it for over 40 years...................
 
Andrew Manning said:
It's not new, but people should understand it's also not true. I don't know which top pro you're referring to, but simply watching video of the top pros reveals that while you do frequently hear someone making a claim like the one above (95% of shots without side-spin), those claims are always wildly off the mark.

Great players (world class) might only use side spin on 25% of their shots. For us mere mortals, I would bet it's usually over 50%. There's no human being on the planet who can play winning 9-ball with such extreme control that they can stick to the center axis on 95% of shots. That means while running a 5-pack, you'd only stray off the center axis on 2 shots. No matter who you're talking about, that's a wild exaggeration. I'd bet that regardless of what the player may claim, it's actually more than 10 shots, and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it was more than 20.

-Andrew
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I think it's even more extreme. My guess is only 25% of pro shots are on the dead center line. These would mostly be straight in shots or slow rolled shots. Pros like to keep throw to a minimum so they'll be slightly off center on most shots - even if they don't realize it.

Chris
 
To quote Willie Mosconi from his little red book:

...I cannot overemphasize the value of center-ball stroking. In pocket billiards, my experience has taught me that more than 85 percent of the shots can be accomplished by stroking the cue ball in the center of its vertical axis.

A good rule to remember in pocket billiards is use center-ball stroking on every shot unless English is absolutely required for position or to make a shot that is not "on" without English.

Complete mastery of the game depends to some extent on English, but unless the player understands its application, he can get into more trouble with it than he would without it.

My experience in 15 years of world's championship play has convinced me that the "cue-tip-width-from-the-center-of-the-ball" rule is right. If you go to the left or right beyond that point, the danger of miscue increase.

You cannot apply English to the ball in the proper manner unless your stroke is correct. The cue ball will not take English as you plan it if your stroke is a rigid poke. Rather, your stroke must be spring-like; it must be sharp and deliberate, and you must follow through it.
 
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Blackball75 said:
An industry insider I spoke to recently told me that some of the top billiards pros are seeking to minimize the use of English in their game, perhaps eradicating it completely. He said such a goal was possible if they were able to play position with a very high degree of accuracy.



Any comments?
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Maybe he was talking about the language? I hear a lot of them using Tagalog instead these days.

Chris
 
Blackball75 said:
An industry insider I spoke to recently told me that some of the top billiards pros are seeking to minimize the use of English in their game, perhaps eradicating it completely. He said such a goal was possible if they were able to play position with a very high degree of accuracy.

I believe he was talking about pool, rather than snooker, the latter which I believe tends to require greater use of English (side) to play at the high level?

Any comments?
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If this were true, no professional would feel the need to use low-deflection shafts which make it easier to play accurately with English.

Best regards,

Detlev
 
I think in places like Russia,Mexico and other non English speaking countries they can play pool quite well with out English.:D
 
"Minimize sidespin" is advice given to beginners because they tend to develop a bad habit of overusing it. So we tell them that you don't need it in most cases. And that may be true if a very skilled player goes out of his way to play shape without it.

You also hear guys like Mosconi saying it. The huge difference is he came up playing straight pool, a game where the cue ball moves very little and 2-3 rail position shots are rare.

The pro game these days is 9 (or 10) ball and it's not unusual to have to move the cue ball all around the table along strange lines. In straight pool you wouldn't voluntarily play shape from one short rail to the other when there are several other balls in between... but in 9b you're often required to. Sidespin is helpful for doing that. Certain routes are very predictable with a healthy dose of sidespin, while trying to duplicate the route with just the exact right amount of draw or follow is more difficult.

All top pool players figure out the ideal safest line to follow from their current position. If a touch of outside makes the shot a little less likely to get hooked or come up short... then they will add that extra outside every time. Even if it can be accomplished without it.
 
It's true that less english is better, but it's impossible not to use it. What I was taught was to do "mini-spins" of 1/2 tip of english or less. Deflection is minimal and combined with a quality stroke that will get you position for nearly all of your shots (if you play your angles right).
 
I'ld have to guess that in order of use of English from least to most it depends on the game.....

Snooker
Straight pool
Banks
Eight ball
Billiards
Nine ball
Ten ball
One pocket
Rotation

That's just my guess, having minimal experience in some of them..... and a personal lack of understanding of the non spinner world. ;) I kind of like to spin the ball..... and NO, I don't gamble :smile: I don't see how anyone could play rotation w/out it, and I don't see how anyone could use much of it in snooker.... but the newer tighter tables will change it's use over time to a minimum IMO.

td
 
I've taken lessons from a pro. During one of them he said, "You have to learn how to use extreme side, I've been trying to teach my girlfriend this." During a playing lesson he opened by making (sorry, don't have the ability to make a wii diagram) a shot that was, if memory serves, basically the 1-ball on the head spot, cue ball 1 diamond right of the foot spot, 2 ball towards the left pocket on the foot rail, with lots of traffic in between. He walked up and shot it, hard, with more inside than I've ever put on a shot in my life. Made and ran out from there. A different species.
 
Blackball75 said:
An industry insider I spoke to recently told me that some of the top billiards pros are seeking to minimize the use of English in their game, perhaps eradicating it completely. He said such a goal was possible if they were able to play position with a very high degree of accuracy.

I believe he was talking about pool, rather than snooker, the latter which I believe tends to require greater use of English (side) to play at the high level?

Any comments?
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What qualifies as an industry insider? The janitor at the local pool hall?

Pool players use English when it is neccessary to get position. That will not change.

You think snooker requires more English? I thought one reason they use ash shafts is because they don't use as much English.
 
If you can play PERFECT position every time you only need running english at the most. Johnnyt
 
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