Fail.
I am not sure you could even slow roll the 3 and controll either ball, being elevated by the 4 and all.
Also, why put the CB closer to the 1?
Why leave the opponent the whole ball?
Push-out decision process
- Thread starter Andrew Manning
- Start date
Fail.
I am not sure you could even slow roll the 3 and controll either ball, being elevated by the 4 and all.
Also, why put the CB closer to the 1?
Why leave the opponent the whole ball?
Celtic,
From the position you leave me in with your suggestion, I'm going to bank the one and stick you behind the eight. Now you're going to have to kick with less chance of hitting the one. The one now sits on the same end of the table with the nine. Not sure I'd like that situation.
Lyn
Thanks for the showing the Wei! I can't believe these people learn this stuff for free, then wanna argue!!
I love it here. Mainly coz I hate work, but anyway...
The way I see it you only have half of the 1-ball so if you are sticking the cueball behind the 8 from there you are jacking up and playing a masse around half of the 8-ball hitting the 1 squarely with the perfect amount of backspin to hold the cueball there. If my opponent wants to shoot that then good luck to them.
That is why I did not roll the ball all the way to the rail, part of the key of the shot is NOT leaving the full 1-ball, if you do then the shot you mention is for sure going to leave you kicking.
Notice in the above, the cueball is going through alot of the 8-ball if you shoot at the center of the 1-ball, I did not move either ball from the original diagram, simply drew the line and placed the "B" ball there to show how much of the 8-ball is in the way of the cueball on that path. I am actually aimed more towards the outer edge of the 1-ball as well as it is.
Celtic,
I'm still going to try to put you behind the eight or depending on where the four comes to rest, come off the bottom rail and try to stick the one somewhere near the four.
Anyway, IMHO, the trick to pushing out is always looking at the pushout from your opponents point of view. What would I do if he leaves me X. If the next ball after the one you push out on is up table, never leave the OP a bank where he can make it and get up table. Try to make him bank short. He may make it but now has no good shot on the next ball.
The old adage of practice, practice, practice works here. Try playing safe on every ball on the table rather than running out. It takes a while but the connection to pushing out becomes evident shortly.
Lyn
I'm still going to try to put you behind the eight or depending on where the four comes to rest, come off the bottom rail and try to stick the one somewhere near the four.
Anyway, IMHO, the trick to pushing out is always looking at the pushout from your opponents point of view. What would I do if he leaves me X. If the next ball after the one you push out on is up table, never leave the OP a bank where he can make it and get up table. Try to make him bank short. He may make it but now has no good shot on the next ball.
The old adage of practice, practice, practice works here. Try playing safe on every ball on the table rather than running out. It takes a while but the connection to pushing out becomes evident shortly.
Lyn
Your going to do something, that is certain. I would probably be looking at safety myself but the point is you are looking at hitting the 1-ball quite thin if you are shooting at it directly from where I originally showed the push out and it is by no means a simple easy hit and stick behind the 8-ball such as you mentioned. The shot from where I left is actually not all that easy and thus is why that particular pushout is a decent one.
I am not sure I know exactly what you mean by "come off the bottom rail and try to stick the one somewhere near the four" but if I am right in reading that as you kicking rail first to hit the 1 towards the 4 then I am more then happy with the result of the pushout.
Situations like this are why we play sets of 9-ball rather than single games. You have to figure to get the worst of it no matter what you do here. Honestly, with the balls this wide open, and the 1-ball positioned so close to the hole, I would consider pushing to a jump shot, perhaps behind the 5. Tying up the 6/9 or 4/6/9 is not guaranteed to help your cause, and I personally don't feel that it buys you a lot against a good player. Not to mention that it comes at the risk of potentially making the out even easier by creating a dead combo.
I'd rather shoot a shot I can execute 99% of the time that forces my opponent's hand from the get-go, giving them a tough offensive opportunity that's not easy to pass up. Regardless of how well they jump, they will be forced to evaluate their perception of how well I jump. If they don't know how well I jump, they will have to assume after my pushout that I am confident in my ability to make the shot. This puts them in a tough spot, and they may feel that they have to shoot a shot that is low percentage for them just because they don't want to pass it back to me.
The thing you have to remember is that there is no way to put your opponent in check mate on a rollout, because they always have the option. No matter where you push to, you're doing it based on the hope that they make a mistake in either their thought process or their execution. Sometimes the best you can hope for is to push out in a way that makes your opponent think hard, and possibly come to the table with some doubts in their mind about the choice they made.
Aaron
I'd rather shoot a shot I can execute 99% of the time that forces my opponent's hand from the get-go, giving them a tough offensive opportunity that's not easy to pass up. Regardless of how well they jump, they will be forced to evaluate their perception of how well I jump. If they don't know how well I jump, they will have to assume after my pushout that I am confident in my ability to make the shot. This puts them in a tough spot, and they may feel that they have to shoot a shot that is low percentage for them just because they don't want to pass it back to me.
The thing you have to remember is that there is no way to put your opponent in check mate on a rollout, because they always have the option. No matter where you push to, you're doing it based on the hope that they make a mistake in either their thought process or their execution. Sometimes the best you can hope for is to push out in a way that makes your opponent think hard, and possibly come to the table with some doubts in their mind about the choice they made.
Aaron
Here is the problem. If you are playing someone at your skill level, whatever you could do with the shot, chances are he could do the same. You can't push to an advantage, unless you can do things your opponent can't do.
That being said, I might consider a soft roll straight to the footrail next to the 2. It is a tough, but makeable shot to the side pocket, but also requires some pretty good skill to get back on the two. At least you aren't leaving an easy pattern for your opponent.
Steve
Do what ever you think is best for that layout, however one of the most important things is not to push to a position that will allow him to put you in jail. Anticipate all of their options in case they decide to take the shot.
Usually if they can see the ball they will have the advantage. You may need to give up a low percentage shot but with no position.
Usually if they can see the ball they will have the advantage. You may need to give up a low percentage shot but with no position.
I think you're first mistake here is the decision to push out at all. Why give your opponent a choice in the matter to take the advantage? This is especially important with a resourceful opponent. You give me any piece of that 1 ball and you're not seeing it next time you're at the table. There are too many hiding places in this layout. You have to ask yourself, "is the kick I'll be faced with going to be better than the easy one I have now?"
You have a simple kick-safe here the forces the opponent to shoot without the option to give it back:
The 8 and/or 7 will likely block the one completely or partially for a wide range of hits if you use the right speed. You're also leaving distance, which makes it harder for your opponent even if they can see some yellow. Even selling out a shot on the 1 doesn't guarantee they'll like having to weave through that congestion and get back up-table for the 2.
I would say the first rule of pushing out is: don't do it unless you have to
Robert
Everyone is a champion on a WEI table. 
The objective when pushing out against a smart player is to gain a slight advantage over your opponent. In the long run, you cannot expect to win control of the table more that 50-60% of the time when playing against a knowledgeable opponent. When your push out leaves your opponent and easy shot or safe, you lose. The same goes when you push out to an overly difficult shot or safety. When pushing out, look for the middle ground where you and your opponent have 40-60% chance of winning control of the table.
Common errors.
-Pushing out to easy shots that your opponent will take and make.
-Pushing out to eay safeties that your opponent will play, leaving you hooked.
-Pushing to your weakness. Your opponent may pass the shot back toyou if they feel your odds of success are far less than theirs.
-Pushing to your opponents strengths. You can avoid this mistake by paying attention to your opponents game.
-Pushing to sure sell-outs.
-Thinking that distance alone makes a push out acceptable. (important)
Hope this helps. Some of it is compliments of Phil Capelle's book
The objective when pushing out against a smart player is to gain a slight advantage over your opponent. In the long run, you cannot expect to win control of the table more that 50-60% of the time when playing against a knowledgeable opponent. When your push out leaves your opponent and easy shot or safe, you lose. The same goes when you push out to an overly difficult shot or safety. When pushing out, look for the middle ground where you and your opponent have 40-60% chance of winning control of the table.
Common errors.
-Pushing out to easy shots that your opponent will take and make.
-Pushing out to eay safeties that your opponent will play, leaving you hooked.
-Pushing to your weakness. Your opponent may pass the shot back toyou if they feel your odds of success are far less than theirs.
-Pushing to your opponents strengths. You can avoid this mistake by paying attention to your opponents game.
-Pushing to sure sell-outs.
-Thinking that distance alone makes a push out acceptable. (important)
Hope this helps. Some of it is compliments of Phil Capelle's book
Yes, it's legal, but in almost every instance I can think of, if you can make legal contact, there is probably a better option open to you.
Steve
If you are not playing at least a B+ player, the push out is almost irrelevant.
One of the things to consider when pushing out is that, since you are giving over the table, you want to try create a multi-inning game. That doesn't necessarily mean just pushing out so your opponent will have a hard time running out so you might get one more turn. I think you give yourself the best shot at negating giving up the table by creating a situation where you are likely to get a couple more chances due to the difficulty of the layout. This is probably Danny's thinking behind tying up balls on the push-out.
As we all know, 9 ball is best played when you minimize running into other balls. One of the big advantages of tying up balls on the push-out is you create the need for your opponent to hit a break shot. This reduces the opponent's control over the layout thereby giving you a better chance of getting back to the table.
As we all know, 9 ball is best played when you minimize running into other balls. One of the big advantages of tying up balls on the push-out is you create the need for your opponent to hit a break shot. This reduces the opponent's control over the layout thereby giving you a better chance of getting back to the table.
That's no good. Here's two possible reasons why (2-page diagram):
I know Andrew wanted to discuss push-outs, but this layout doesn't favor it. I would go for the kick safe every time here. It's too easy to have a shot worse than the simple 1-rail kick next.
I think many people give up the advantage by pushing-out just because the can't see the ball. Playing short easy 1-rail kicks like the 1-ball in this position increases your options dramatically when hit with the right speed. They're worth practicing if you're not comfortable with them, and you certainly don't have to be a champion to hit them well.
Robert
A world of good advice here. I like bumping the four ball softly. No need to send it down table IMO. If you can see the whole one ball and are asked to shoot, just bank it down table and leave the cue ball right there. If you can't see the whole one ball and are asked to shoot, cut the one as thin as possible and bring the cue ball back down table. Don't worry about where the one goes. That will only make the shot more complicated than it needs to be.
I must be missing something here with the above statements.
If you hit the lowest ball on the table, it would be a legal shot.....not a push out.
You would lose your option of getting the shot "pushed" back to you by the opponent. It would be the opponent's shot then...no decisions left to decide.