Replace OB With CB
- Thread starter JE54
- Start date
There are a few situations in pool where the shot is insensitive to certain kinds of errors, and the stop shot is one of them. Other examples are the half-ball follow angle and speed on a follow shot. Technical explanations of these are in the article http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1997-02.pdfJude Rosenstock said:
In other words, yes.
In other words, you don't know.
Not for lack of trying.
pj
chgo
Patrick Johnson said:
Patrick, you REALLY need to work on your quotation skills as well as your reading skills.
But in any event, regarding your statement "In other words, yes."
No, "yes" is not synonymous with "no" so you need to add English Usage to your list of remedial studies. (Although, I have a feeling that in your relationships with women, you HOPE that "no" means "yes"....Just guessing of course).
Re: your comment.."In other words, you don't know." Now, you need to add "reading comprehension" to your list of remedial requirements. The answer to your first question was contained in my previous remark and even when you were directed to re-read the statement, you obviously were incapable or unwilling to discern its CLEAR meaning. So, no...you choice of "other words" was comically inept.
Regarding your comment "Not for lack of trying"....finally, you are correct. I HAVE tried but your fragile ego and obvious lack of self-confidence--which manifests itself in arrogance and self-serving mischaracterizations, have been difficult obstacles to surmount.
But by posting your snippy,feable little attempts at rejoinder...even after I...YET AGAIN...suggested that we both stand down... you seem to want me to keep trying...so have no fear Patrick...I WILL...BELIEVE IT!
(-:
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Bob Jewett said:
Yes! This is EXACTLY what I mean! IMO, the stop-shot is the first great step to advanced pool. Understanding its simple yet incredibly applicable details will pay a hundred-fold (quite possibly more). It is, without a doubt, the most desired position in all billiard games. Getting the cueball to travel two inches (whether it be forward OR backward) gets more difficult as the objectball and cueball get farther apart.
I know the poster did not seek advice on stop-shots but I cannot help but think this very thread is a bi-product of their lack of appreciation and knowledge of them.
Jude Rosenstock said:
I fully agree that the stop shot has huge benefits. I don't recall from reading Bob's article whether he said that the half ball shot was THE most important in pool or ONE of the most important.
But personally, I would rank them co-equally and say that they are the two most important shots.
But back on topic...I have never perceived the "replace the ob with the cb as a "position shot." I learned it from one of the Kinister videos and he certainly did not say it was a position shot.
Rather, he adamantly and correctly characterized the shot as important to develop a "default" cueing speed and said quite boisterously that YOU ALL SHOOT TOO HARD...YOU KNOW YOU DO.
He also sought to emphasise the importance of a dead level, center ball hit with the cue following STRAIGHT THROUGH (as he repeats about 50 times).
I don't recall him ever referring to the shot as "position oriented"
and don't think that the need to run through by a couple of inches...no more, no less, would come up more than once in 100 shots...whereas, as you point out, stopping the cb dead comes up in the significant majority of racks.
Regards.
Jim
enzo said:
Sure, on some safeties the cb needs to roll forward a couple of inches but very often such a shot is a slow roll to achieve the cb forward roll not a "stun run through" which is the shot being discussed.
We are both referring to our own experiences, of course, and I certainly don't presume to speak for yours. In my experience, I honestly don't recall the last time I ued a stun run through to accomplish a safety.
Basically the same with position play. It is relatively rare, in my experience, when exactly replacing the OB vs. a stop shot, for example...or a soft follow where the cb rolls, say, 3 inches instead of 2.25 inches, would meaningfully alter the achievement of proper shape.
Again, I don't dispute your experience...and I want to be sure that we are both talking about the shot being discussed in this thread...i.e. a full ball "stun run through" where skid ends and forward roll begins slightly before cb/ob contact such that the cb proceeds straight forward so as to occupy the space vacated by the OB.
If so, then I would not expect to see that shot come up more than once or twice...if that...in a pro race to 7. Conversely, I would expect to see both the stop shot and the half ball hit come up in virtually every rack.
In a QUICK review of Byrne's Standard Book and Advanced Techniques and Koehler's Science. the stop and half ball hits and stun shots are discussed extensively but I saw no refernece to a stun run through to replace the ob. I certainly may have missed such a discussion though.
But you have peaked my curiosity so as soon as I get my new DVD/Video player hooked up, I will pick one of the hundred or so pro matches I have and take a look. I'll report back to you.
Regards,
Jim
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This is in NO WAY conclusive...but I just shot 15 racks...broke and ran the first 2 I am proud to say but then came to my senses and played normally (-:
But there was no occasion in those 15 racks that the "replacement" shot would have come up. Even if I could have placed the CB on the vacated OB position by hand, I wouldn't have done it.
Safeties were required in 4 of the racks but the only time that it was even an option, the better play was to shoot the ob toward a different portion of the table than would have been necessary if the replacement shot was executed.
Again, 15 racks doesn't prove a lot. I will get back to you with a Strickland vs. Mizerak match back in the 1980s.
This is an especially interesting thread for me because I have been using the Kinister drill for years for practice but genuinely don't recall the last time it came up in a match.
Regards,
Jim
But there was no occasion in those 15 racks that the "replacement" shot would have come up. Even if I could have placed the CB on the vacated OB position by hand, I wouldn't have done it.
Safeties were required in 4 of the racks but the only time that it was even an option, the better play was to shoot the ob toward a different portion of the table than would have been necessary if the replacement shot was executed.
Again, 15 racks doesn't prove a lot. I will get back to you with a Strickland vs. Mizerak match back in the 1980s.
This is an especially interesting thread for me because I have been using the Kinister drill for years for practice but genuinely don't recall the last time it came up in a match.
Regards,
Jim
I think av84fun might be about your age - ask him to play games with you.
pj
chgo
How about a force stroke?
Stop shot but with a little oomph so the cueball slides a bit?
Page 5 coming up.
Stop shot but with a little oomph so the cueball slides a bit?
Page 5 coming up.
enzo...and just as respectfully, I have to completely disagree with you. The replacement shot comes up (as absolutely necessary) about 1 out of 100 shots (at best), where a stopshot will suffice. Playing 'good position' means that you don't have to 'replace' the OB, except in very rare occasions where you end up with a very tiny window on the next shot.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
enzo said:
jsp said:
No, you're absolutely right. You can't slide forward. Sliding only happens along the perpendicular line.
jsp said:
No jsp. What pdcue and I are getting at is that Patrick doesn't understand what "rotation" means.
Rotate means:
1. To turn around on an axis or center.
So, the earth rotates but a ball rolls unless it is spinning around an axis running through its center.
So what Patrick was describing as "rotation" in his comments about the replacement shot was actually "roll."
Just having a little good natured fun with a gentleman who is fond of propounding his views in scientific terms.
REgards,
Jim
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I don't think you and pdcue are on the same page, considering all pdcue's "stun" hints. Stunning implies no initial roll after contact.av84fun said:
I still don't see a difference. Anything that is rolling is also rotating. But not everything that is rotating is also rolling. For this particular discussion, if the CB moves forward after a straight-in collision, the CB must be rolling, and thus it is also rotating. But I say let's stop nitpicking semantics.av84fun said:
I still would like to hear what pdcue has to say for himself.
LOL. Priceless.
(Hint: all the ball's spin/rotation/roll axes run through its center.)
LOL.
pj
chgo
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