In a pool room its called hustling when the government does it it's for the kids, public safety and the environment.
Responce to Jerry Forsyth Article
- Thread starter DrMikeUSN
- Start date
In a pool room its called hustling when the government does it it's for the kids, public safety and the environment.
its suckers like you that think you know pool.
i bet you run some tourney and make what the player makes who gets first.
i am still waiting for your list of players who all make a live in tourneys.
and i know i could give you the orange crush you did not have to tell me that.
i never said i want to be the face of pool you fool.
so you know i do have a few sponsers and i do still want to gamble.
and by the way i wont change my att when it comes to fools that think they know pool.im out
Does the fact that Stu Ungar was a drug addict who consistently battled with with his inner demons hurt poker? No. Does the fact the Doyle Brunson is known to have sat in back room games with notorious drug dealers and criminals hurt it's image? No. Do corporate sponsors avoid football because of the criminal and heinous actions of certain players? No. Does the fact the Quentin Tarentino allegedly enjoys abundant amounts of cocaine and Thai hookers while locked away working on a movie hurt his films? No.
Corporate america does not avoid pool because of gambling. Pool on television - as it is today - just isn't very exciting to watch, unfortunately. The public either doesn't know enough about the game, or isn't interested enough to watch. It's not the stories and rumors surrounding pool that cause this, it's just the way it is.
The individual personalities and stories are exactly what can help pool. Who is one of the most widely known players in pool? Fats. And what did he do? He was notorious for talking about hustling and for gambling. And people loved it. The General Public® loves to hear about gambling and scandal. Watch TV for a day and see how much is on TV about "unethical" behavior. TV shows and movies devoted to wifes cheating on their husbands. Reality shows based on deception and in-fighting. Programs based on murder, drugs, and scandal. People are definitely not avoiding pool on TV because there is some talk of gambling. Sadly, it just is not "exciting" to watch.
As cliche as it is becoming to discuss, poker got so famous lately because of the money. Plain and simple. If Moneymaker won $15,000 after a $1000 entry fee on ESPN, nobody would have cared too much. But as luck would have it, Moneymaker parlayed his $1 (was it even that much?) entry into millions. That's what the General Public® fell in love with. Easy money. People were exposed to the chance that they could win life-changing money, just by the luck of the cards.
Should a normal person sit and play at a table with Brunson, Hellmuth, Chan, Negreanu, and expect to win? No. (although in poker they could) Did the billionaire from Texas have a real chance of beating the Vegas pros collectively? Not really, once the fix was in. Has that hurt poker?
Should a normal person expect to tee up next to Tiger, Mickelson, Watson, and expect to win? No.
Should a normal person expect to beat a player like Bartram, Wilke, or a host of others? No.
Pool just has so much talent out there. No one forces the General Public® into gambling. You can't get hustled unless you make a bet. And you only make a bet if you think you have the best of it. So whose fault is it?
Smart people don't walk into a poolroom and make a bet with a stranger.
I was in a poolroom with my dad one night, about a year ago, and it was me, my dad, and some friends. We were having a few drinks, laughing, just relaxing. Some of the local players were just sitting watching my dad, even though we were just having fun. Some kid walks by and says he'll play anyone that wants to gamble, and "taunted" my dad - as if he was afraid to gamble. My dad let it slide, the kid obviously had no idea. But the kid wouldn't drop it. He went back to his table and was bragging how no one would gamble. He walked by us at least 3 more times, unprovoked. Keep in mind, locals are sitting around watching my dad play.
So, inevitably, the kid approaches again. Says he wants to play, because he's a "strong six" in the APA. My dad says, "what do you want to play", to which the kid says, 9-ball race to 9 for $400. I would have thought the kid would reconsider based on how fast my dad said, "OK, rack'em", but he didn't. (personally, I think the kid was expecting my dad to decline when he mentioned the huge amount of $400)
He went to get his buddy, and I asked if he wanted to bet on his friend. He was more than happy, asked me how much, and I told him whatever he had on him, or could get quick enough. Still no fear. And still no idea who they were playing, other than just some loud guy drinking with his son and his buddies.
So, after it was about 5-0, it was obvious the kid couldn't run 3 balls. When it was 7-0, my dad left the kid a shot on the 6. Still couldn't get out. This was worse than we all thought, I expected the kid to come with something, especially after all the talk. But no, he had heart and just thought he could play. Still wanted to play more after that, but said he need weight, like the 8
He had no more money, and we waited for him to come back, but I think he wised up.
Point is, people only gamble when they think they can win. This kid approached us, multiple times. He wasn't a regular, this was my local poolroom. He just had something to prove, or money to burn. Do I feel bad for him? No. Is my dad at fault for beating him? No, the kid approached him multiple times. Did the kid have the sense to ask the bartender, "Hey, who's that guy everyone is gathered around watching?". Obviously not.
I agree with whoever mentioned a reality show based on a real road player would probably be great. People love to watch this kind of thing. Unknown player walks in, makes a game, gets the money... that's the allure of this game. That's what people might tune in to watch.
If you don't have enough sense not to make a game with someone you don't know, that's your own fault. It's not the fault of the game as a whole, and it's not what's holding pool down.
If I meet a guy on the street that wants to bet me $2000 he can jump over a car, I ain't betting him. Sure as hell, as soon as I bet - he's gonna jump over that car. It's not the fault of the car industry.
Corporate america does not avoid pool because of gambling. Pool on television - as it is today - just isn't very exciting to watch, unfortunately. The public either doesn't know enough about the game, or isn't interested enough to watch. It's not the stories and rumors surrounding pool that cause this, it's just the way it is.
The individual personalities and stories are exactly what can help pool. Who is one of the most widely known players in pool? Fats. And what did he do? He was notorious for talking about hustling and for gambling. And people loved it. The General Public® loves to hear about gambling and scandal. Watch TV for a day and see how much is on TV about "unethical" behavior. TV shows and movies devoted to wifes cheating on their husbands. Reality shows based on deception and in-fighting. Programs based on murder, drugs, and scandal. People are definitely not avoiding pool on TV because there is some talk of gambling. Sadly, it just is not "exciting" to watch.
As cliche as it is becoming to discuss, poker got so famous lately because of the money. Plain and simple. If Moneymaker won $15,000 after a $1000 entry fee on ESPN, nobody would have cared too much. But as luck would have it, Moneymaker parlayed his $1 (was it even that much?) entry into millions. That's what the General Public® fell in love with. Easy money. People were exposed to the chance that they could win life-changing money, just by the luck of the cards.
Should a normal person sit and play at a table with Brunson, Hellmuth, Chan, Negreanu, and expect to win? No. (although in poker they could) Did the billionaire from Texas have a real chance of beating the Vegas pros collectively? Not really, once the fix was in. Has that hurt poker?
Should a normal person expect to tee up next to Tiger, Mickelson, Watson, and expect to win? No.
Should a normal person expect to beat a player like Bartram, Wilke, or a host of others? No.
Pool just has so much talent out there. No one forces the General Public® into gambling. You can't get hustled unless you make a bet. And you only make a bet if you think you have the best of it. So whose fault is it?
Smart people don't walk into a poolroom and make a bet with a stranger.
I was in a poolroom with my dad one night, about a year ago, and it was me, my dad, and some friends. We were having a few drinks, laughing, just relaxing. Some of the local players were just sitting watching my dad, even though we were just having fun. Some kid walks by and says he'll play anyone that wants to gamble, and "taunted" my dad - as if he was afraid to gamble. My dad let it slide, the kid obviously had no idea. But the kid wouldn't drop it. He went back to his table and was bragging how no one would gamble. He walked by us at least 3 more times, unprovoked. Keep in mind, locals are sitting around watching my dad play.
So, inevitably, the kid approaches again. Says he wants to play, because he's a "strong six" in the APA. My dad says, "what do you want to play", to which the kid says, 9-ball race to 9 for $400. I would have thought the kid would reconsider based on how fast my dad said, "OK, rack'em", but he didn't. (personally, I think the kid was expecting my dad to decline when he mentioned the huge amount of $400)
He went to get his buddy, and I asked if he wanted to bet on his friend. He was more than happy, asked me how much, and I told him whatever he had on him, or could get quick enough. Still no fear. And still no idea who they were playing, other than just some loud guy drinking with his son and his buddies.
So, after it was about 5-0, it was obvious the kid couldn't run 3 balls. When it was 7-0, my dad left the kid a shot on the 6. Still couldn't get out. This was worse than we all thought, I expected the kid to come with something, especially after all the talk. But no, he had heart and just thought he could play. Still wanted to play more after that, but said he need weight, like the 8
He had no more money, and we waited for him to come back, but I think he wised up.Point is, people only gamble when they think they can win. This kid approached us, multiple times. He wasn't a regular, this was my local poolroom. He just had something to prove, or money to burn. Do I feel bad for him? No. Is my dad at fault for beating him? No, the kid approached him multiple times. Did the kid have the sense to ask the bartender, "Hey, who's that guy everyone is gathered around watching?". Obviously not.
I agree with whoever mentioned a reality show based on a real road player would probably be great. People love to watch this kind of thing. Unknown player walks in, makes a game, gets the money... that's the allure of this game. That's what people might tune in to watch.
If you don't have enough sense not to make a game with someone you don't know, that's your own fault. It's not the fault of the game as a whole, and it's not what's holding pool down.
If I meet a guy on the street that wants to bet me $2000 he can jump over a car, I ain't betting him. Sure as hell, as soon as I bet - he's gonna jump over that car. It's not the fault of the car industry.
Hey, thanks for the heads-up. I can now go to the Thursday night tournaments in Sterling, if there is no smoking allowed. Since I quit smoking last year, I can't stand being near smoke from cigarettes.
Ex-smokers are the worst complainers about smokers. LOL :grin:
That is an incredible idea. A reality show about hustlers. It's probably the best idea I've heard since I talked about creating a pool tournament that was poker style.....actually I think it is a better idea.
*edit*
For those who missed my idea it was this:
Players enter a tournament for say $1000. Each player is given that amount in chips. They are assigned a match and will bet on that match as they see fit. They are also free to bet on individual shots, break and runs, safeties etc. In between matches they can go to the green room and gamble chips as well. The TV tables would be cash and not chips to make it more dramatic and woofing would of course be encouraged as well as banter (sharking) in between shots.
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Mike, you never did answer my question. Are you Hopkins' good friend "Big Mike"? After reading your posts, I kind of thing you can't be, but I may be wrong.
I can cite a few examples where gambling out-trumped tournament play, and it will do it every single time.
I was attending a tournament in Chelmsford, MA one year, and it was HUGE. All the name-brand pool super stars were in attendance. The pool room was quite big and nice. They had a separate tournament room for the semi-finals and finals.
In the separate tournament room, Johnny Archer, a very well-known player, was competing against Nick Varner, a favorite of all pool fans everywhere.
In another part of the pool room, there was Keith McCready gambling in a game of bumps with Evengy "The Russian" Stalev.
There was only a dozen or more people watching Archer and Varner. All other spectators of this pool tournament were sweating McCready and The Russian.
This is just one example OF MANY that I can cite when action seems to be more popular than tournament play.
You want to blame something, why pool suffers today, it is the non-emotional robotic play of some pro players which on TV can be a big turnoff to mainstream America.
You and I might enjoy the non-emotional robotic play and be able to sit there for hours watching it, but nobody else likes it. It's boring and is what, in my opinion, is one reason why pool cannot succeed in the United States.
When you go to Hopkins' Super Billiards Expo, there's tournaments non-stop everywhere going on, and the vendors displaying their wares is pretty cool for people like us who enjoy everything associated with pool. Go downstairs and check out the Action Tables. It seems to be where the crowd draws near, time and time again.
The Filipinos and Europeans couldn't get to American shores fast enough to compete in our pool events because there wasn't any money in pool where they lived. The Filipinos were road warriors and had gamble. They fit right in. The European pool culture, well, even today this group of pool folk still seem to thumb their nose at American pool. Yet, they seem to like our money okay.
The pool pie in the United States can't feed the world of pool, but it has for years. Look at our U.S. Open. We welcome players from far and near, all nationalities, to come compete. Heck, look at Greg Sullivan's Derby City Classic. He actually provides FREE room and board to MANY of our international brethen of players.
It is not the same in other countries. Therein lies one big problem. However, in recent times, I have noticed more and more pool events popping up overseas, while pool events in the States are not quite as plentiful as they once were for pro-caliber players. The existing lot of professional players is dwindling. The American pool pie is down to crumbs, and it's just not enough to attract new blood of aspiring American pool pros.
These are the pioneers of American pool pictured below. I can assure you that when action was prevalent, pool enjoyed more success than it does today. It makes me sick to my stomach to see so-called members of the American pool culture not recognizing these legends' contributions to pool. Without them, pool would have dropped off the map much sooner than it has today. :wink:
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You take someone with no clue about pool. Walk them into a room with two tables. Tell them "Table 1 has two nicely dressed gentlemen playing to see who donates money to charity. Table two has two guys dressed like you who have life stories out of a novel playing for $20,000 winner take all."
I will be over by the table surrounded by people watching.
When people ask me what I do who have no clue about pool it usually goes like this:
"What do you do"
"I produce and promote professional pool events"
"Oh.... pool?"
"Yes. We get the best players in the world to come together, put up $10,000-$20,000 each and play winner takes all."
"Wow....that's cool."
Notice it is after I bring in the money and winner take all that the "cool" comes out, not after the "professional pool". It has happened more times than I can count almost verbatim.
I will be over by the table surrounded by people watching.
When people ask me what I do who have no clue about pool it usually goes like this:
"What do you do"
"I produce and promote professional pool events"
"Oh.... pool?"
"Yes. We get the best players in the world to come together, put up $10,000-$20,000 each and play winner takes all."
"Wow....that's cool."
Notice it is after I bring in the money and winner take all that the "cool" comes out, not after the "professional pool". It has happened more times than I can count almost verbatim.
its all about entertainment
any profession sport is nothing more than entertainment and the players are just entertainers. unless pool can be made entertaining there is just no way its going to be more than it is right now. it has nothing to do with gambling. thats just crazy talk. there will be no sponsor money until there are spectators. there will not be any spectators until pool is entertaining to watch either in person or on tv. come on people you have to admit pool just isnt very exciting to watch sometimes-and that is for pple who already love the game.
brian
any profession sport is nothing more than entertainment and the players are just entertainers. unless pool can be made entertaining there is just no way its going to be more than it is right now. it has nothing to do with gambling. thats just crazy talk. there will be no sponsor money until there are spectators. there will not be any spectators until pool is entertaining to watch either in person or on tv. come on people you have to admit pool just isnt very exciting to watch sometimes-and that is for pple who already love the game.
brian
I just don't think anyone gets it. I am not saying there is anything wrong with the gamble. What I am saying I feel there is that negitive stigma that exists.
To change that negitive image, we need to change the face of it.
When a guy walks out of prison for a crime, he is known as a criminal. So to change his image it takes a lot of hard work, I think that is what we need to do. But, I am not saying take the gambling out of the game, that would be stupid and there are a lot of people that like the gambling. I am saying to get the major sponsors we need to show the positive sides of the sport, show the professionals, give back to the community, and NOT show off the gambling.
It's that simple.
To change that negitive image, we need to change the face of it.
When a guy walks out of prison for a crime, he is known as a criminal. So to change his image it takes a lot of hard work, I think that is what we need to do. But, I am not saying take the gambling out of the game, that would be stupid and there are a lot of people that like the gambling. I am saying to get the major sponsors we need to show the positive sides of the sport, show the professionals, give back to the community, and NOT show off the gambling.
It's that simple.
Well said, great story.
Does the fact that Stu Ungar was a drug addict who consistently battled with with his inner demons hurt poker? No. Does the fact the Doyle Brunson is known to have sat in back room games with notorious drug dealers and criminals hurt it's image? No. Do corporate sponsors avoid football because of the criminal and heinous actions of certain players? No. Does the fact the Quentin Tarentino allegedly enjoys abundant amounts of cocaine and Thai hookers while locked away working on a movie hurt his films? No.
Corporate america does not avoid pool because of gambling. Pool on television - as it is today - just isn't very exciting to watch, unfortunately. The public either doesn't know enough about the game, or isn't interested enough to watch. It's not the stories and rumors surrounding pool that cause this, it's just the way it is.
The individual personalities and stories are exactly what can help pool. Who is one of the most widely known players in pool? Fats. And what did he do? He was notorious for talking about hustling and for gambling. And people loved it. The General Public® loves to hear about gambling and scandal. Watch TV for a day and see how much is on TV about "unethical" behavior. TV shows and movies devoted to wifes cheating on their husbands. Reality shows based on deception and in-fighting. Programs based on murder, drugs, and scandal. People are definitely not avoiding pool on TV because there is some talk of gambling. Sadly, it just is not "exciting" to watch.
As cliche as it is becoming to discuss, poker got so famous lately because of the money. Plain and simple. If Moneymaker won $15,000 after a $1000 entry fee on ESPN, nobody would have cared too much. But as luck would have it, Moneymaker parlayed his $1 (was it even that much?) entry into millions. That's what the General Public® fell in love with. Easy money. People were exposed to the chance that they could win life-changing money, just by the luck of the cards.
Should a normal person sit and play at a table with Brunson, Hellmuth, Chan, Negreanu, and expect to win? No. (although in poker they could) Did the billionaire from Texas have a real chance of beating the Vegas pros collectively? Not really, once the fix was in. Has that hurt poker?
Should a normal person expect to tee up next to Tiger, Mickelson, Watson, and expect to win? No.
Should a normal person expect to beat a player like Bartram, Wilke, or a host of others? No.
Pool just has so much talent out there. No one forces the General Public® into gambling. You can't get hustled unless you make a bet. And you only make a bet if you think you have the best of it. So whose fault is it?
Smart people don't walk into a poolroom and make a bet with a stranger.
I was in a poolroom with my dad one night, about a year ago, and it was me, my dad, and some friends. We were having a few drinks, laughing, just relaxing. Some of the local players were just sitting watching my dad, even though we were just having fun. Some kid walks by and says he'll play anyone that wants to gamble, and "taunted" my dad - as if he was afraid to gamble. My dad let it slide, the kid obviously had no idea. But the kid wouldn't drop it. He went back to his table and was bragging how no one would gamble. He walked by us at least 3 more times, unprovoked. Keep in mind, locals are sitting around watching my dad play.
So, inevitably, the kid approaches again. Says he wants to play, because he's a "strong six" in the APA. My dad says, "what do you want to play", to which the kid says, 9-ball race to 9 for $400. I would have thought the kid would reconsider based on how fast my dad said, "OK, rack'em", but he didn't. (personally, I think the kid was expecting my dad to decline when he mentioned the huge amount of $400)
He went to get his buddy, and I asked if he wanted to bet on his friend. He was more than happy, asked me how much, and I told him whatever he had on him, or could get quick enough. Still no fear. And still no idea who they were playing, other than just some loud guy drinking with his son and his buddies.
So, after it was about 5-0, it was obvious the kid couldn't run 3 balls. When it was 7-0, my dad left the kid a shot on the 6. Still couldn't get out. This was worse than we all thought, I expected the kid to come with something, especially after all the talk. But no, he had heart and just thought he could play. Still wanted to play more after that, but said he need weight, like the 8
Point is, people only gamble when they think they can win. This kid approached us, multiple times. He wasn't a regular, this was my local poolroom. He just had something to prove, or money to burn. Do I feel bad for him? No. Is my dad at fault for beating him? No, the kid approached him multiple times. Did the kid have the sense to ask the bartender, "Hey, who's that guy everyone is gathered around watching?". Obviously not.
I agree with whoever mentioned a reality show based on a real road player would probably be great. People love to watch this kind of thing. Unknown player walks in, makes a game, gets the money... that's the allure of this game. That's what people might tune in to watch.
If you don't have enough sense not to make a game with someone you don't know, that's your own fault. It's not the fault of the game as a whole, and it's not what's holding pool down.
If I meet a guy on the street that wants to bet me $2000 he can jump over a car, I ain't betting him. Sure as hell, as soon as I bet - he's gonna jump over that car. It's not the fault of the car industry.
And who pray tell is your #1 living rotation game player???
You are way off base with your comments. Sorry dude.
Seriously, you do not have a clue....
I love how you like that story. Allen's son writes it you love it. Had any of the rest of us wrote that same story you would have hated it....
You are way off base with your comments. Sorry dude.
Usually, when no one else gets it, you are the one not getting it....
You are way off base with your comments. Sorry dude.
You are such a sweetheart that I had to switch my avatar back...
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LOL For Sure lol
it is simple, but i'm sorry to say that youre the one that doesnt get it. gambling is NOT what prevents pool from attracting sponsors and being successful enough for pro's to make a living. its the simple fact that by in large pool just is not an entertaining sport to spectate. thats it right there. its that simple. stop worrying about gambling. find a way to make watching a pool match entertaining both to live spectators as well as a tv audience that cuts across multiple demongraphics (not just rabid pool fans like us), then sponors and money will come. and no one will give a rat's behind about gambling.
entertainment=spectators=sponsors=money
its that simple
brian
The fact is, you just simply don't understand. It's as simple as that. Gambling has nothing to do with it. Companies HAVE sponsored pool in the past, and they didn't quit because of gambling.
NBC, the LARGEST network has no problem with gambling. They show real people gambling with REAL money everyday.
There are things in the works that are going to make your comments look very stupid. Pool IS marketable, just like poker, it just hasn't been done right. But I know a few people who are working hard to change that. So until then, I guess you can just live in your own fantasy world thinking you know what you are talking about because you run a tour.
Maybe his next tour will be called, YAWOFWYCSD. Would make just as much sense as DMIRO.
Quoting from a 1956 newspaper article and you think that is still relevant in 2009? The image of professional pool and the sport in general has undergone major transformations since then. MAJOR! You must have missed all the upscale pool rooms that opened across the country in the 80's and 90's following the release of The Color Of Money. Pool became acceptable to the masses in a big way. And maybe you've missed all the years of coverage that ESPN and Fox Sports has given to professional pool. It is an accepted sport in this country and top pool players are recognized as skillfull athletes.
Perhaps they are not famous athletes or big stars yet, as pool has remained a minor sport due to the limited coverage and prize monies, compared to the major sports. But it is no longer a disgrace to tell people that you are a professional pool player. The top players are able to be proud of their profession. The argument that corporate sponsors won't touch pool because of the "negative" image doesn't hold water either. I would argue that corporate sponsors would embrace pool if there was a television show that garnered high ratings. All corporate America cares about are the ratings, not necessarily the content of the show. Take a look at some of the stuff on TV today if you don't think that is the case.
Already in Asia and in parts of Europe pool does get high ratings and millions of television viewers. And guess what, the sponsors are all there and on board with it. It would be wise to be properly informed before making specious arguments about the sport of pool.
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saw this is not fair this guy vs me and you.
but wait everyone on here thinks he is a fool.