shot maker vs position player

I see a lot of B+ and low-A players that are amazing shotmakers because they use very little english, but their make percentage drops dramatically once they start trying to improve their position play. The ones that can get over that hump and become proficient and balanced in both aspects of their game are on the path to becoming true A players.

Also, in my experience playing in ring games where you can't play safe, I've found that the lower level shotmakers have a clear advantage over better players who play the percentages and aren't used to banking and cutting everything on the table.
 
victorl said:
I see a lot of B+ and low-A players that are amazing shotmakers because they use very little english, but their make percentage drops dramatically once they start trying to improve their position play. The ones that can get over that hump and become proficient and balanced in both aspects of their game are on the path to becoming true A players.

Also, in my experience playing in ring games where you can't play safe, I've found that the lower level shotmakers have a clear advantage over better players who play the percentages and aren't used to banking and cutting everything on the table.
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Interesting...I grew up on a pretty regular diet of ring games. I like to stay at the table.
 
Good point, maybe that's why I'm always forking over the cash to everyone and their mother.
 
liakos said:
Hope all is well with everyone:)

So last night I played a friend a fairly cheap set race to 15. I always considered him a verygood shotmaker, but his rock is sometimes a little suspect. I never considered myself a shotmaker, more of a position player! So we played the set on a fairly tight table and I won the set 15-10! All is well and it was late so we pretty much left! Outside a couple of friends were there making small talk and I decided to hang for a bit! One of them I consider a phenominal player and I'm sure almost everyone here has heard of him. Anyway, we were talking about the match and I was telling him I wish I could make balls like my opponent could, and he says to me you shouldn't think like that, you shoot as good if not better! I said I move better, but I don't shoot better! He asked me who won the match? I said I did! He said youre the better player!

So here is my question, because I missed less, am I the better shotmaker? And what does everyone look at overall in a player? Cue ball control or shotmaking?

Admittingly I'm not too crazy about shotmaking, I would rather have control:)
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If you are asking for people to assess your game it would be a lot easier if you would post a video of yourself playing pool.
 
I assume "shot maker" to be a guy who is quite a bit above average at making super thin cuts, difficult banks, carom and kick shots.... That was me at my peak on standard pool hall GC's. I was almost always beaten by position players who couldn't aim as precisely as I could. Position is much more important and that's what I work on most in my return to playing. The best shotmaker frequently has no realistic shot to take. A merely decent position player runs into "no realistic shot," heck- they run into " no easy shot" far less frequently than a good shooter with weak shapemaking ability.
 
To the OP:

You're actually the better shotmaker. Why? Bc overtime you probably made more shots then ur opponent. But more importantly you probably chose to shot certain shots in different pockets then what ur opponent would have bc it offers better shape to get out. Which is also what makes u a better shot maker bc u chose the right shots.

Don't get me wrong. I get it! U think bc he makes more difficult shots that he's a better shotmaker.

A better position player boils down to 4 factors.
1. Choosing the right pocket to shoot at that lends shape.
2. Speed control
3. Understanding of spin
4. Planning
 
When I was growing up we played all games.
Straight Pool, 3 Cushion,3 ball,6ball,8 ball ,9 ball, Chicago, or money ball, 15 ball rotation, 1 pocket, banks, etc..... cash games or you didn't play.

Rotation games were played 2 foul push out. everybody was a shot maker, you could make spot shots from anywhere in the kitchen with your eyes closed.

Try running a chicago rack being a hero shot maker, guarantee to sell out the farm.
 
It's probably already been said in this thread,but I heard that,"Shape don't mean shit if you are sitting down" Odd though.I also feel that the better "shape" player may be the winner over time.Not sure :confused:
Marc
 
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IamCalvin06 said:
To the OP:

You're actually the better shotmaker. Why? Bc overtime you probably made more shots then ur opponent. But more importantly you probably chose to shot certain shots in different pockets then what ur opponent would have bc it offers better shape to get out. Which is also what makes u a better shot maker bc u chose the right shots.

Don't get me wrong. I get it! U think bc he makes more difficult shots that he's a better shotmaker.

A better position player boils down to 4 factors.
1. Choosing the right pocket to shoot at that lends shape.
2. Speed control
3. Understanding of spin
4. Planning
Click to expand...


That's exactly what my friend said! I knew going in I was a bit of the favorite because of my position play! I have a hard shot every 2-3 games I play! My opponent has a couple every game he's in! I figured he wouldn't make all of them and I would capitalize;)
 
the main difference between the two

The main difference between the two is that you can be a shotmaker without knowing much of anything about position play. Best shotmaker I played for a lot of years was a brain fried hippie that cut balls side to side of a nine foot table, very very thin cuts. Had to fire the cue ball ninety miles an hour to do that because the cut was so thin. If he could see a ball and a pocket he would cut it and since he did it so often he was very good at it. I tried to hang with him and it got to where we drew a crowd when we played. The battle went on three or four times a week for months and I was probably sucking hind teat a little bit until I started banking the easier banks and controlling the cue ball a little more.

On the other hand a position player that can play tight position just can't help but be a pretty strong shot maker too. Much of the time, even most of the time, pocketing the ball is the easier part of the shot. When you have the cue ball on a string pocketing balls is almost automatic.

Some side benefits for a gambler, cue ball control lets you get lucky or unlucky to keep the other player in the game. I usually played the same speed as three-fourths of the people in the place, maybe just a little better.

Hu
 
Question: When you step to the table -- where does your confidence (or lack thereof) come from?





I think the answer to this question for most of us is -- Knowing that you can make the ball! Once you are confident that you can make the ball, you can then turn your attention to going for the impossible -- doing things with the cue ball that you didn't think were even possible.

If there is any doubt about whether or not you can make the shot in front of you, you can forget about position because it's not going to happen. You will end up just a bit out of line on the first shot and then even more so on the second one. You will eventually be faced with a shot that's just a wee bit out of your comfort zone and your confidence will continue to erode if not vanish. You will miss.

Playing position to a specific area can be difficult. Actually upon close inspection some of the things top players are able to do with the cue ball seems down right impossible. I think the key to doing these nearly impossible things is when these guys step to the table to play a particular shot they are NOT worried about pocketing the ball. They know they can make the ball. They are completely free to focus on position.

This is why I think working hard to stretch your ball pocketing abilities can return greater dividends than working on specific cue ball patterns. As you become more and more comfortable with pocketing a greater number of shots you become free to really experience the roll of the cue ball.

Let’s face it – we all only have a limited amount of energy. We can only focus intently for so long. How much of an advantage does the player that doesn’t have to focus on pocketing the ball have over the player that does?


Oh well, what’s it all really matter anyway since the great ball pocketing machine that can’t play position is largely a myth anyway. :p
 
yep!

BasementDweller said:
Oh well, what’s it all really matter anyway since the great ball pocketing machine that can’t play position is largely a myth anyway. :p
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Yep, I think the last ball pocketing machine that was great pocketing balls and paid absolutely no attention to shape that I played was that hippie, back in the early seventies. He never attempted to play a bank or a kick if anything resembling a cut was available and I don't believe ever tried to play shape.

Most people at least try to play shape even if they are playing for the wrong shape or trying the wrong shot to get there.

Hu
 
liakos said:
Hope all is well with everyone:)

So last night I played a friend a fairly cheap set race to 15. I always considered him a verygood shotmaker, but his rock is sometimes a little suspect. I never considered myself a shotmaker, more of a position player! So we played the set on a fairly tight table and I won the set 15-10! All is well and it was late so we pretty much left! Outside a couple of friends were there making small talk and I decided to hang for a bit! One of them I consider a phenominal player and I'm sure almost everyone here has heard of him. Anyway, we were talking about the match and I was telling him I wish I could make balls like my opponent could, and he says to me you shouldn't think like that, you shoot as good if not better! I said I move better, but I don't shoot better! He asked me who won the match? I said I did! He said youre the better player!

So here is my question, because I missed less, am I the better shotmaker? And what does everyone look at overall in a player? Cue ball control or shotmaking?

Admittingly I'm not too crazy about shotmaking, I would rather have control:)
Click to expand...

ive not read the other replies,,,,:o
but you know you are a good player when you dont have to make tough shots
ie
cue ball control is the difference among players
the better your cue ball control the better the player
imho
 
Uphill, increasingly out of line, successive circus shots required in a game can be mentally tiring and taxing.

But fun.

Given a choice: easier to learn shape if already a good shotmaker, than the inverse.
 
liakos said:
Hope all is well with everyone:)

So last night I played a friend a fairly cheap set race to 15. I always considered him a verygood shotmaker, but his rock is sometimes a little suspect. I never considered myself a shotmaker, more of a position player! So we played the set on a fairly tight table and I won the set 15-10! All is well and it was late so we pretty much left! Outside a couple of friends were there making small talk and I decided to hang for a bit! One of them I consider a phenominal player and I'm sure almost everyone here has heard of him. Anyway, we were talking about the match and I was telling him I wish I could make balls like my opponent could, and he says to me you shouldn't think like that, you shoot as good if not better! I said I move better, but I don't shoot better! He asked me who won the match? I said I did! He said youre the better player!

So here is my question, because I missed less, am I the better shotmaker? And what does everyone look at overall in a player? Cue ball control or shotmaking?

Admittingly I'm not too crazy about shotmaking, I would rather have control:)
Click to expand...

Shotmaking is par for course for top pro players. The difference I see in their games is their CB control/position control/ safety play. You have seen top shotmakers run out open tables easily but when there are clusters they cannot get out and get hammered.
So IMHO position player. Great shotmaking is probably more important in snooker than in 9 or 10 ball
 
FranCrimi said:
Definitely shot-making first. Ray Martin taught me that when he was my coach. I can still hear him preaching to me how the great players were all great shot-makers before they became great position players.
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That's why he didn't call his book "The 99 Critical Positions in Pool"

Anyway ... Most players start by making shots and learning over time how to play better position. It's the natural progression of the game ... If you started playing pool and never made incredible or difficult shots you would have quit by now ... Later in life you get more excited by an incredible safety or pinpoint shape ... Learn everything you can about both. Great shotmakers are usually great because they have to be ... As stated before though the law of averages will catch up with you and you will miss ... I know how to make a wide variety of shots ... I rarely have to use them all ... I'm not any better at making shots than I used to be ... But I am much better at choosing when to shoot and when to play safe ... Watch a great shotmaker run 6 balls in an 8 ball game and get steamrolled by the opponent ... Your answer lies in the observation ...

Cheers !




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Most intermediate, to advanced players are FAR TOO OBJECT BALL CONSCIOUS

You make a great point, the use of TOI will increase both your shot-making AND position play. Playing position is so simple when you think in terms of using the same type shot rather than just getting an "easy" shot.

One thing you'll notice about "easy shots," is you'll miss more of them than the "difficult" ones if you're not careful......I like judging all the shots as the same, because in each and ever case you're just hitting the cue ball precise and accurately.

I recommend doing drills where you just bank all the object balls in without the cue ball...this will do wonders for getting you more focused on the primary target...the cue ball!!!

Most intermediate, to advanced players are FAR TOO OBJECT BALL CONSCIOUS - this leads to "reaching for the ball" on the follow through and destroys the acceleration you need AT THE MOMENT OF CONTACT (I do mean exactly at the moment of contact).

'The Game is the Teacher' .com


3andstop said:
Thank you, great statement. You're officially off the hook for plagiarizing my TOI. :thumbup: ( I never figured I'd get that 4 bucks anyhow.)
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