Should a Cue Maker Stand Behind the Work or Is it Your Problem?

[Fast Lenny]

There was a thread posted in the Cue Review section and somehow it got brought up about a well known cue maker not standing behind his work when the cues purchased warped. I was curious as to everyone and their feelings about cues warping. Is it a piece of wood and you take your chances that if it warps its your problem or should a cue maker stand behind it and fix the issue?

I do understand some people do not take care of their equipment, leaving it out in the car or not stored properly. I am referring to cues that are taken care of and more referring to the butt of the cue as shafts are thinner and more prone to moving. I posted a poll with some options.

Here is the original thread for the curious cats.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=268558

 

[michael4]

I dont think there should be a "lifetime" warranty on a piece of wood, but if you buy a quality cue, and take care of it, the shaft should stay straight for many years, and the butt should stay straight much longer.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

This is a very interesting question.

Specifically because i know of a couple instances, where a cuemakers personality, changed as his popularity did.

When a cuemaker feels that his work is basically flawless, and any problems that arise, must be the result of neglect or abuse, it's time to take them down off that pedestal.

Know a guy who spent a great deal of money on a "name" cue and waited a few years for it.
Since it was more of a collectible then an every day shooter to him, he put it away.
Shafts warped within 6 months.

When he contacted the cuemaker, he was basically accused of leaving his cue in the car, out in the rain, and in the sewer, when in reality, the cue had less then 20 hours of play on it. It spent most of it's time in a case that was standing upright in a gun safe.

How are you supposed to deal with a cuemaker when their ego can't handle the fact that something they made, might have gone wrong?
It's not that hard to see this happening, especially when some cues are built in temp/humidity controlled environments, and then go out into the real world.

Same thing can be said when a cue from the desert ends up in the tropics, and a cue from the tropics, ends up in the desert.
Stuff can go wrong.

Personally, i think the cuemaker should stand behind his work if the cue was well taken care of.
But at the same time, wood is just flat out unpredictable, and how would you prove it was taken care of in the first place?

This is why i am all for inexpensive cues now.
If it warps, you just get a new one.
End of problem.

 

[rburgoyne]

I can't vote because I don't see the option I believe in. If I buy a cue and take care of it and the shaft warps within the first few months or even the first year, I think the cue maker should stand behind their work. If after a year or two though a shaft warps, I can't see faulting the cue maker. Now if the finish starts separating or something comes loose, that I feel should be the cue makers responsibility well past a year or two.

 

[champ2107]

i think my 2 OB shafts have some kind of life time warranty and i think the same goes for my gulyussy anvil. i think anyway lol

 

[JB Cases]

Too vague Lenny. When it comes to warpage it's hard to say what happens to the cue after it leaves the maker's shop. However some cue makers somehow manage to make cues that almost never have warping problems while others seem to have a problem with warpage often.

Some cue makers are somehow able to guarantee against warpage for life. I don't know exactly how they do this or what that means for the "hit" but they do it.

I say it depends. For myself if I were a cue maker then I'd probably do everything humanly possible to prevent my cues from warping. I have to think when I see a Bushka or Szam that is 40 years old and it's dead straight or the 8k Gina I bought two weeks ago that was made in 1993 and it's dead straight and people never talk about these brands and how much they warp that they must be doing something right to build cues that travel the country and stay straight. While other notable brands seem to always have "issues" and some cue makers don't deal well with those issues.

I think it would be an interesting exhibit at one of the cue collector's shows if each collector would put up a couple problem cues that cue maker did not stand behind and let the public see the ugly side of the business.

Kind of a yin/yang thing.

 

[Fast Lenny]

Too vague Lenny. When it comes to warpage it's hard to say what happens to the cue after it leaves the maker's shop. However some cue makers somehow manage to make cues that almost never have warping problems while others seem to have a problem with warpage often.

Some cue makers are somehow able to guarantee against warpage for life. I don't know exactly how they do this or what that means for the "hit" but they do it.

I say it depends. For myself if I were a cue maker then I'd probably do everything humanly possible to prevent my cues from warping. I have to think when I see a Bushka or Szam that is 40 years old and it's dead straight or the 8k Gina I bought two weeks ago that was made in 1993 and it's dead straight and people never talk about these brands and how much they warp that they must be doing something right to build cues that travel the country and stay straight. While other notable brands seem to always have "issues" and some cue makers don't deal well with those issues.

I think it would be an interesting exhibit at one of the cue collector's shows if each collector would put up a couple problem cues that cue maker did not stand behind and let the public see the ugly side of the business.

Kind of a yin/yang thing.

I am speaking of cues that are taken care of, stored properly and not left out in the car or thrown around and abused. You make good points about some cues being older and still straight, perhaps its the materials used. Maybe some cue makers will chime in with opinions as to why some cues warp and others do not and what they do to help prevent it.

 

[HawaiianEye]

I have a McDermott C-14 cue that is over 25 years old and I guarantee it has hit a million balls and is still dead straight...butt and shaft alike. I have used it to break thousands and thousand of racks and it is still straighter than 99% of the "big name" custom cues that have just came out of their lathes.

People will badmouth "production" cues, but I have NEVER had a problem with any production cue I have owned, but I hear lots of people on here complaining about "so and so's" custom shafts warping, etc.

When I bought this cue, I had two custom made Richard Blacks that I ordered from him (1979 & 1982) and I liked this cue so well, I sold both of them and this became my playing cue.

I tend to baby my cues, so they may not experience as much shock and abuse as those where people leave them in the car and don't take care of them. I constantly am wiping my cue as I play and I wipe my cues completely down after I finish and then store them in quality hard cases.

I'm not sure you could totally hold a cuemaker liable for one of his high-dollar cues warping after a few years, but I would have to make a comment on his cues if he wouldn't even match the warranty of a "lowly" "production" McDermott (lifetime).

 

[Hungarian]

I haven't voted yet bc I'm on the fence. Sorry if this has all ready been said but first issue I see is how would one tell if the warp is due to neglect and misuse or due to a manufacturers defect or simply due to the natural aging of the wood.

For the sake of this post let's assume the cue was well taken care of.

Questions:
1.) What did the cue maker agree too?
2.) Do they do some type of advanced coring and aging process and guarentee against warping?
3.) Is it a custom cue or a production cue?

All this leads to additional considerations. I am guessing here a little so JB please correct me if I am wrong, but don't the production cue mfgs offer a lifetime warrenty against warping. But this is mostly because how inexpensive it is to product the cue and so they add warranty margin into the sell price when you buy the cue.

And is it not also typical that the custom cue builders limit their warp coverage to a minimum since it's much more costly to replace?

 

[Quesports]

I wish this had been about either shafts warping or the butt warping. Given the facts of proper storage I would say that a butt warping within the first year of ownership should be something a cuemaker would warantee against.

Shafts are another animal altogether, how much warp is acceptable? Hard to say, seems to me that lots of shaft wood moves a little. How much is acceptable or not is a tough question to answer...

 

[lorider]

I haven't voted yet bc I'm on the fence. Sorry if this has all ready been said but first issue I see is how would one tell if the warp is due to neglect and misuse or due to a manufacturers defect or simply due to the natural aging of the wood.

For the sake of this post let's assume the cue was well taken care of.

Questions:
1.) What did the cue maker agree too?
2.) Do they do some type of advanced coring and aging process and guarentee against warping?
3.) Is it a custom cue or a production cue?

All this leads to additional considerations. I am guessing here a little so JB please correct me if I am wrong, but don't the production cue mfgs offer a lifetime warrenty against warping. But this is mostly because how inexpensive it is to product the cue and so they add warranty margin into the sell price when you buy the cue.

And is it not also typical that the custom cue builders limit their warp coverage to a minimum since it's much more costly to replace?

you have brought up some valid points but i voted that cuemakers should stand behind their work.

actually i believe they should be held to a higher standard than production cues.

the number one reason people buy custom cues is because their quality is so much better than production cues, right ? so why shouldnt they stand behind their work like mc dermott, viking and predator do ?

as far as a cuemaker claiming you must have abused your cue, i think thats a bogus excuse to try and get out of making it right.who in their right mind will treat a 2,000.00 cue they waited a year or more on getting the same way they would treat a 100.00 off the shelf cue ?

i have limited experience with custom cues as i only have one which i bought last year. ihave several production cues , some of which are at least 8 years old.

here is my experience so far.

my custom came with 3 shafts, one which became warped a few months after getting it, the other 2 are still straight. after paying what i did for it you can believe i baby that thing.

all of my production cues are still straight as can be. the viking which is 8 years old was not treated kindly i am ashamed to say. i used to bar hop quite a bit when i 1st got that cue, dragging it with me everywhere i went. left it in my car overnight more times than i care to remember in temperatures ranging from 90 plus to when there was 6" of snow on the ground. it is still as straight as the day i bought it. i still take it out and play with it sometimes but now i treat all my cues the way they are supposed to be treated. all of them are stored in cases in my closet except when i am playing with one and then it is put back in there as soon as i get home .

i will have to say that viking is the best 500.00 investment i have made to date.

 

[lukemindish]

Should a carpenter stand behind his work? Or an electrician? Or should you pay them, they do a shitty job and then youre just stuck with it. No the same goes for cue makers. They should stand behind their work bottom line.

 

[lorider]

Should a carpenter stand behind his work? Or an electrician? Or should you pay them, they do a shitty job and then youre just stuck with it. No the same goes for cue makers. They should stand behind their work bottom line.

you cant use that line of reasoning on this forum

dont you know cuemakers are in a class all by themselves ?

i tried using that same argument in the thread titled are custom cues worth the money and got flamed to hell and back

 

[thommy]

Should a carpenter stand behind his work? Or an electrician? Or should you pay them, they do a shitty job and then youre just stuck with it. No the same goes for cue makers. They should stand behind their work bottom line.

NUFF SAID:thumbup:

I bought a willie hoppe in about 1965. It is the old brass on brass joint. (anybody here even seen one?) I got it from a guy in his sixties. It was dead straight then and still is today. I abused the shit out of it 'cause I was 17 and didn't know better.

If they could do it then the "pros" should be able to do it today.
butt warp????????????
howinell does that happen? too much fancy and not enough knowledge??

shaft warp has got to be a function of aging of the wood. I've been a woodworker (carpenter) for over 40 years so I know of what I speak

 

[manwon]

There was a thread posted in the Cue Review section and somehow it got brought up about a well known cue maker not standing behind his work when the cues purchased warped. I was curious as to everyone and their feelings about cues warping. Is it a piece of wood and you take your chances that if it warps its your problem or should a cue maker stand behind it and fix the issue?

I do understand some people do not take care of their equipment, leaving it out in the car or not stored properly. I am referring to cues that are taken care of and more referring to the butt of the cue as shafts are thinner and more prone to moving. I posted a poll with some options.

Here is the original thread for the curious cats.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=268558

I certainly think they should if it obvious the cue was taken care of, but only to the original buyer. When the cue maker sold the cue to the original buyer it's kinda like a contract and as long as he keeps the cue and takes proper care of it he should be covered against warp-age.

IMO

 

[SLIM]

i think unless every detail is known about the situation between cue maker & customer all outside parties should mind there own business.

SLIM

 

[scsuxci]

Unless its something outlandish, its buyer beware.A cuemaker has no control what his buyers might do with or to the cue.There's some shady, snakey people out there that will take full advantage of the cuemaker and try to put them under the thumb until they do what they want and usually want it for free.:bash:

 

[whammo57]

Sometimes it's better to just bite the bullet and fix/repair/replace it to avoid all the bad mouth and potential loss of business that might occur.

Kim

 

[Matt]

Replacing shafts for free may be okay for a production cue company, but I don't believe that cue makers should be expected to compete with that policy. With the lower volume, such a policy would either call for an increase in the prices of their cues to account for replacements or drive them out of business.

From what I know, all of the following factors, and maybe a few more, can cause shaft warping:

• Poor Wood Quality
• Poor Wood Treatment
• Poor Shaft Construction
• Abuse
• Storage Conditions

Since the list includes items that can be a caused by either the cue maker or the owner (or nature, if the wood has a mind of its own), I think the logical solution is to split the cost of replacement. I'm not sure exactly what the split should be, but it seems like some compromise would be the best way to maintain customer satisfaction without opening up the cue maker to someone abusing a warranty. Perhaps if the cue owner pays for the materials, the cue maker could do the work for free.

 

[tuda]

i would have to say there is alot of variables that go into my decision.

did the cue come in perfect condition, and you not caring for it properly cause the imperfections? such as warping of the shaft and what not.

if it comes to you in bad condition, i.e. warped shaft, butt, or other various flaws, then yes the cue maker should fix it...

if its due to you not caring for it properly, then... thats your fault, not his.