Should a member who has attempted to steal from other members be Forgiven / Trusted

[snipershot]

This poll is unfair and uncalled for in my opinion. If you are using escrow properly, then the risks are very low. I doubt that banning him would do any good at all. I still dont understand why so many people that were not involved in the deal, (that has been resolved) are here screaming for a ban. I dont know all the details, and Im not going to ask. I know that he screwed up, everyone here can agree on that, but as I have said on the other thread, he is the only one thats screwed up that came back, made it right, and did so with good intentions. I know people that were criminals, hardcore drug dealers, armed robbers, and so on. Some of those people were able to turn their lives around 180 degrees and go on to live a productive life. Some went to prison to learn that, some just woke the f*ck up. Either way, Im not saying all people deserve a second chance, but I know that most of the people saying ban him, or he is just as bad as a murderer, have no idea how many second chances they have had, or will have in their lives. Come on, is everyone here telling me they have never screwed up, or screwed someone over on accident, or even on purpose? So what should this guy do? Retire from the human race? You guys get so pissed at this guy, but no matter how you look at it, he made it right. It might have took a while, but it was resolved. God forbid something ever happen to me, and I need a second chance......

 

[manwon]

QUOTE=snipershot;1779853]This poll is unfair and uncalled for in my opinion. If you are using escrow properly, then the risks are very low. I doubt that banning him would do any good at all. I still dont understand why so many people that were not involved in the deal, (that has been resolved) are here screaming for a ban. I dont know all the details, and Im not going to ask. I know that he screwed up, everyone here can agree on that, but as I have said on the other thread, he is the only one thats screwed up that came back, made it right, and did so with good intentions. I know people that were criminals, hardcore drug dealers, armed robbers, and so on. Some of those people were able to turn their lives around 180 degrees and go on to live a productive life. Some went to prison to learn that, some just woke the f*ck up. Either way, Im not saying all people deserve a second chance, but I know that most of the people saying ban him, or he is just as bad as a murderer, have no idea how many second chances they have had, or will have in their lives. Come on, is everyone here telling me they have never screwed up, or screwed someone over on accident, or even on purpose? So what should this guy do? Retire from the human race? You guys get so pissed at this guy, but no matter how you look at it, he made it right. It might have took a while, but it was resolved. God forbid something ever happen to me, and I need a second chance......[/QUOTE]

I dont know all the details

The above is about the only thing you have said in this post that makes sense.

First, you are entitled your opinion, and while I disagree with you, I can respect the fact that you stand up for what you believe in. However, you have not been a forum member long enough to completely understand what has transpired here in the last few years stemming from these kind of problems, unless you have more than one user name!!!!!!

This forum has many of the largest cue collectors in the country as members, their contributions here are very valuable. In addition this forum has the pulse of the entire cue collecting community and if trust among members is breached and nothing is done about it that will also end. The forum owner and the forum moderator's can only do so much to make this a safe place to buy and sell high end cues. In the end forum members must police themselves, this more than anything else has brought many bad transactions to end before they start. This may not solve the problem, but it certainly gives people the information they need to make an informed decision.

So it all comes down to one simple thing, thanks for your opinion and I hope you have a nice night!!!!!!:yeah::yeah::speechless:

 

[snipershot]

I dont know all the details

The above is about the only thing you have said in this post that makes sense.

First, you are entitled your opinion, and while I disagree with you, I can respect the fact that you stand up for what you believe in. However, you have not been a forum member long enough to completely understand what has transpired here in the last few years stemming from these kind of problems, unless you have more than one user name!!!!!!

This forum has many of the largest cue collectors in the country as members, their contributions here are very valuable. In addition this forum has the pulse of the entire cue collecting community and if trust among members is breached and nothing is done about it that will also end. The forum owner and the forum moderator's can only do so much to make this a safe place to buy and sell high end cues. In the end forum members must police themselves, this more than anything else has brought many bad transactions to end before they start. This may not solve the problem, but it certainly gives people the information they need to make an informed decision.

So it all comes down to one simple thing, thanks for your opinion and I hope you have a nice night!!!!!!:yeah::yeah::speechless:[/QUOTE]

I too respect your opinion. I also disagree with your opinion. I may not have been a member here long enough to witness the bad deal, but on the other hand, you may be rushing to judgement on me. I have one screen name, and only one. I am not being rude manwon, but dont you think its a little silly to think that the only way I might have known or heard about this is AZ? I may not have been playing pool for the last decade, but I am not completely out of the loop. High-end cues are not my area of business, but my view is the same nonetheless. Please dont think I am being a smart-azz, just stating that news travels in other places besides AZ. Again, I am not trying to insult you, but we will have to agree to disagree on this one my friend.


Joe

 

[manwon]

I dont know all the details

The above is about the only thing you have said in this post that makes sense.

First, you are entitled your opinion, and while I disagree with you, I can respect the fact that you stand up for what you believe in. However, you have not been a forum member long enough to completely understand what has transpired here in the last few years stemming from these kind of problems, unless you have more than one user name!!!!!!

This forum has many of the largest cue collectors in the country as members, their contributions here are very valuable. In addition this forum has the pulse of the entire cue collecting community and if trust among members is breached and nothing is done about it that will also end. The forum owner and the forum moderator's can only do so much to make this a safe place to buy and sell high end cues. In the end forum members must police themselves, this more than anything else has brought many bad transactions to end before they start. This may not solve the problem, but it certainly gives people the information they need to make an informed decision.

So it all comes down to one simple thing, thanks for your opinion and I hope you have a nice night!!!!!!:yeah::yeah::speechless:

I too respect your opinion. I also disagree with your opinion. I may not have been a member here long enough to witness the bad deal, but on the other hand, you may be rushing to judgement on me. I have one screen name, and only one. I am not being rude manwon, but dont you think its a little silly to think that the only way I might have known or heard about this is AZ? I may not have been playing pool for the last decade, but I am not completely out of the loop. High-end cues are not my area of business, but my view is the same nonetheless. Please dont think I am being a smart-azz, just stating that news travels in other places besides AZ. Again, I am not trying to insult you, but we will have to agree to disagree on this one my friend.


Joe[/QUOTE]

I can respect that Joe, in my world if you don't stand for something you will fall for anything and at least we have that in common!!!!!!!!

Oh and by the way Joe, I never rush into anything, I always cover my Six!!!!!!!!!

Have a good night!

 

[the420trooper]

Come on, is everyone here telling me they have never screwed someone over on accident, or even on purpose?

Yes...

You guys get so pissed at this guy, but no matter how you look at it, he made it right. It might have took a while, but it was resolved. God forbid something ever happen to me, and I need a second chance......

In that case, I have a cue I'd like to "sell"....Interested?
(Also, some ocean front property in Arizona...)

 

[Sam Waltz]

Escrow!

In that case, I have a cue I'd like to "sell"....Interested?
(Also, some ocean front property in Arizona...)

I hereby volunteer to provide "escrow" for you two gentlemen on these purchases...












*There may be a 2 yr 8 month wait on either of you getting your goods though! I'm sure that won't be a problem .*

 

[Pii]

Yes...




In that case, I have a cue I'd like to "sell"....Interested?
(Also, some ocean front property in Arizona...)

Sure We'll put it in escrow until we're both happy with the deal. I'll pass on the AZ ocean front.

But more importantly is there some reason I should not trust you?

 

[snipershot]

Yes...




In that case, I have a cue I'd like to "sell"....Interested?
(Also, some ocean front property in Arizona...)

I dont know you, but I will just have to say kudos to you. Maybe you have never screwed anyone over, but you sir are the exception, not the rule. I know there have been people in my life I have screwed over, maybe not on the same level or for money, but I know I felt bad. I doubt there are many people out there who are that much of a saint that they have never ripped anyone off. If people keep pushing him, he can just make a new name, do all his business through a friend or family member with a different name, and Ill bet nobody would even have a clue as to what happened in the past. Then what will people do? I would rather see Brian do it this way, so I can use the free escrow and be aware of what happened.


As for the ocean front property in Arizona, how about a trade for a sizable piece of land with plenty of potential in the Ukraine, just wear lots of sunscreen


Joe

 

[manwon]

I dont know you, but I will just have to say kudos to you. Maybe you have never screwed anyone over, but you sir are the exception, not the rule. I know there have been people in my life I have screwed over, maybe not on the same level or for money, but I know I felt bad. I doubt there are many people out there who are that much of a saint that they have never ripped anyone off. If people keep pushing him, he can just make a new name, do all his business through a friend or family member with a different name, and Ill bet nobody would even have a clue as to what happened in the past. Then what will people do? I would rather see Brian do it this way, so I can use the free escrow and be aware of what happened.


As for the ocean front property in Arizona, how about a trade for a sizable piece of land with plenty of potential in the Ukraine, just wear lots of sunscreen


Joe

If people keep pushing him, he can just make a new name, do all his business through a friend or family member with a different name, and Ill bet nobody would even have a clue as to what happened in the past. Then what will people do? I would rather see Brian do it this way, so I can use the free escrow and be aware of what happened.


As for the ocean front property in Arizona, how about a trade for a sizable piece of land with plenty of potential in the Ukraine, just wear lots of sunscreen

Brian can also choose to just go away if he has truly had a change of heart, I mean that is what some one who knows they screwed up and is repentant would do. An honest person would not choose to use another user name, that is just not what an honest man does, and it is only a matter of time anyway before they are exposed.

If you choose to support multiple user names that is your business, and it is also dishonest and against forum rules. If you want to deal with Brian call him on the phone, it obvious you have some stake in this or you would not keep posting to a thread you disagree with. I have not up to this point told anyone not to deal with Brian, I have only warned others about his past record here on AZ billiards. Brian is obviously your friend, so I doubt your opinion is valued by many, and those who do are welcome to it. But, in the end you are helping me keep this thread on the top and publicly viewed which I thank you for, that was my intent by starting this thread.

Oh and by the way, are willing to take financial responsibility if problems occur again?

Have a great day, and thanks for your continued support and please respond!!!!!!!!!:thumbup:

 

[TX Poolnut]

I don't know who it is, but if someone stole from a member
of this forum, and they still have not settled up with the
member they shafted, they should not be allowed to do
any type of deals.
All past deals must be dealt with before they can post here again.


hugs
mrs.g

Exactly Mrs. G!

 

[snipershot]

If people keep pushing him, he can just make a new name, do all his business through a friend or family member with a different name, and Ill bet nobody would even have a clue as to what happened in the past. Then what will people do? I would rather see Brian do it this way, so I can use the free escrow and be aware of what happened.


As for the ocean front property in Arizona, how about a trade for a sizable piece of land with plenty of potential in the Ukraine, just wear lots of sunscreen

Brian can also choose to just go away if he has truly had a change of heart, I mean that is what some one who knows they screwed up and is repentant would do. An honest person would not choose to use another user name, that is just not what an honest man does, and it is only a matter of time anyway before they are exposed.

If you choose to support multiple user names that is your business, and it is also dishonest and against forum rules. If you want to deal with Brian call him on the phone, it obvious you have some stake in this or you would not keep posting to a thread you disagree with. I have not up to this point told anyone not to deal with Brian, I have only warned others about his past record here on AZ billiards. Brian is obviously your friend, so I doubt your opinion is valued by many, and those who do are welcome to it. But, in the end you are helping me keep this thread on the top and publicly viewed which I thank you for, that was my intent by starting this thread.

Oh and by the way, are willing to take financial responsibility if problems occur again?

Have a great day, and thanks for your continued support and please respond!!!!!!!!!:thumbup:

Ok, Ill bite. The biggest reason I am posting here, is because I believe he is trying to make it right. I do know Brian, but that is not why Im posting here. I have talked with him, and its simply unfair to throw the ban at him without knowing all the details, which you and I both do not know. Brian told me a little about what happened, and I can see why this all happened. I dont believe it was right at all, dont think I am defending anyone here. I dont agree with anyone making multiple names Craig, I was just stating what usually happens when people get banned from a forum, whether its here or another place, its the same usual result. Its not my place to take financial responsibility for anyone except my wife and son. I am not telling anyone to deal or not deal with Brian, just that there are a lot of facts that only those involved know about that might change the opinion of some people on here that are a bit too trigger happy with the ban gun. Ok, Im done Craig. Its been fun arguing with ya, but I believe I have said all that I wanted to say, and people with make up their own minds, with or without facts. Have a good one bud.



Joe

 

[KillerCane]

in this case he should not only be banned, but castrated beaten and hanged.. jmho if he had serious money issues i understand that, but to resell an already sold cue that the customer had been waiting on for about a year. i'm actually angry as hell about that.

 

[manwon]

Ok, Ill bite. The biggest reason I am posting here, is because I believe he is trying to make it right. I do know Brian, but that is not why Im posting here. I have talked with him, and its simply unfair to throw the ban at him without knowing all the details, which you and I both do not know. Brian told me a little about what happened, and I can see why this all happened. I dont believe it was right at all, dont think I am defending anyone here. I dont agree with anyone making multiple names Craig, I was just stating what usually happens when people get banned from a forum, whether its here or another place, its the same usual result. Its not my place to take financial responsibility for anyone except my wife and son. I am not telling anyone to deal or not deal with Brian, just that there are a lot of facts that only those involved know about that might change the opinion of some people on here that are a bit too trigger happy with the ban gun. Ok, Im done Craig. Its been fun arguing with ya, but I believe I have said all that I wanted to say, and people with make up their own minds, with or without facts. Have a good one bud.



Joe

I do know Brian, but that is not why Im posting here.

Joe, first of all you only know what Brian told you, and second while you say that you are not posting here because you know Brian, I have to call Bullshit, because Joe you just pegged my bullshit meter. To make the facts were know, I went back and looked at your previous posts. Joe, you have never been involved in a similar thread since you became a forum member. Which clearly shows that in reality you would have never posted here if your friend was not involved. Joe, I think we could sit down and drink a beer outside of this forum and enjoy some pool and conversation, however, the fact that you are personal friends with Brian also makes your opinion invalid.


Its not my place to take financial responsibility for anyone except my wife and son.

Joe, by supporting some one who has a bad reputation, you are also putting your's on the line. I understand backing up a friend, and I would do a similar thing in the same situation. However, in a situation where I have that much faith in another's actions, enough to tell others to trust them I would also agree to make financial restitution to further help them re-build their reputation. I suppose that shows that you are not completely certain either Joe, and I think that is a smart move on your part.:wink:


It's unfair to throw the ban at him without knowing all the details, which you and I both do not know.

You may not know much about what happened, but please do not tell me what I know or don't know. While I was not involved directly in that situation, I stay very well informed about all such deals. That is the only way to completely protect yourself from falling into traps, like I said before I always watch my 6!!!!!

I am not telling anyone to deal or not deal with Brian, just that there are a lot of facts that only those involved know about that might change the opinion of some people on here that are a bit too trigger happy with the ban gun.

Joe, you are doing just that, telling others to give him a chance, and a chance at what, selling on this forum, so you are in effect telling people just that.

Joe, how much do people have to know?? He took a over three thousand dollars in pay for cues that he did not send. Then later when he was faced with legal action by one of the buyers, HE THEN MADE RESTITUTION ALMOST THREE YEARS AFTER HE TOOK THEIR MONEY. JOE WHAT ELSE DOES ANYONE NEED TO KNOW, IT HAPPENED, THE ABOVE STATEMENT IS FACTUAL, HOW CAN ANY OF THIS CHANGE SOME ONES OPINION!!

Joe no disrespect intended, but lets face it you do have a personal stake in this, and Joe that destroys your credibility with the posts to this thread, at least for me.

Take care Joe!!!!!

 

[mamono]

Please don't flame me, I'm new. I just want to add a perspective. If he is banned from the forum, wouldn't that create the result where he would show up at a later time registered under a new/different username. The internet makes anonymity very easy. After having been banned and returning under a new/different name, that new/different username would have no history. Therefore, people would not know that they would need to proceed with caution or use escrow with that person because he has no past. Wouldn’t it be easier for everyone that trades with the person to want to know their trading history? What ever happened with the axiom, keep your friends close and your enemies closer? If you can keep tabs on someone that has wronged someone else, it would be easier if they were in plain sight rather than having to rediscover that they have a new identity. Just a thought…

 

[manwon]

Please don't flame me, I'm new. I just want to add a perspective. If he is banned from the forum, wouldn't that create the result where he would show up at a later time registered under a new/different username. The internet makes anonymity very easy. After having been banned and returning under a new/different name, that new/different username would have no history. Therefore, people would not know that they would need to proceed with caution or use escrow with that person because he has no past. Wouldn’t it be easier for everyone that trades with the person to want to know their trading history? What ever happened with the axiom, keep your friends close and your enemies closer? If you can keep tabs on someone that has wronged someone else, it would be easier if they were in plain sight rather than having to rediscover that they have a new identity. Just a thought…

No one should ever get flamed for an honest opinion, that is line with a posted thread. What you have said here makes perfect sense, but like you said you have not been a member that long, and you may not understand the custom cue market. This forum has a very large number of the of high end cue dealers and collectors, in fact it may have the largest concentration of them in the country. If some one is buying and selling high end or even semi high end custom cues there is a great chance that some one out there has seen those cues before unless they are new. While it is easy for some who choose to stay in the shadows to have multiple Id's some one selling custom cues will have much more difficulty, and eventually some one recognize a cue being sold and the person who is selling it.

In the end bad behavior can not be tolerated, or rewarded, I personally did not vote to have the guy Banned, but I did vote that he should lose his buying and selling privileges.

Take Care

 

[Pii]

I do know Brian, but that is not why Im posting here.

Joe, first of all you only know what Brian told you, and second while you say that you are not posting here because you know Brian, I have to call Bullshit, because Joe you just pegged my bullshit meter. To make the facts were know, I went back and looked at your previous posts. Joe, you have never been involved in a similar thread since you became a forum member. Which clearly shows that in reality you would have never posted here if your friend was not involved. Joe, I think we could sit down and drink a beer outside of this forum and enjoy some pool and conversation, however, the fact that you are personal friends with Brian also makes your opinion invalid.


Its not my place to take financial responsibility for anyone except my wife and son.

Joe, by supporting some one who has a bad reputation, you are also putting your's on the line. I understand backing up a friend, and I would do a similar thing in the same situation. However, in a situation where I have that much faith in another's actions, enough to tell others to trust them I would also agree to make financial restitution to further help them re-build their reputation. I suppose that shows that you are not completely certain either Joe, and I think that is a smart move on your part.:wink:


It's unfair to throw the ban at him without knowing all the details, which you and I both do not know.

You may not know much about what happened, but please do not tell me what I know or don't know. While I was not involved directly in that situation, I stay very well informed about all such deals. That is the only way to completely protect yourself from falling into traps, like I said before I always watch my 6!!!!!

I am not telling anyone to deal or not deal with Brian, just that there are a lot of facts that only those involved know about that might change the opinion of some people on here that are a bit too trigger happy with the ban gun.

Joe, you are doing just that, telling others to give him a chance, and a chance at what, selling on this forum, so you are in effect telling people just that.

Joe, how much do people have to know?? He took a over three thousand dollars in pay for cues that he did not send. Then later when he was faced with legal action by one of the buyers, HE THEN MADE RESTITUTION ALMOST THREE YEARS AFTER HE TOOK THEIR MONEY. JOE WHAT ELSE DOES ANYONE NEED TO KNOW, IT HAPPENED, THE ABOVE STATEMENT IS FACTUAL, HOW CAN ANY OF THIS CHANGE SOME ONES OPINION!!

Joe no disrespect intended, but lets face it you do have a personal stake in this, and Joe that destroys your credibility with the posts to this thread, at least for me.

Take care Joe!!!!!

I guess it's safe to assume this was not a impartial poll?

Nor do I think Joe is BS'ing just because he's never posted in a Poll thread before.

Also for someone that keeps informed on "these things" I find it odd you said Brain never made it right in your first post when in fact he had. Obviously you DO NOT KNOW ALL THE FACTS just the ones you think are important.

So I'm calling BS on your poll. If you want to start a thread to get someone banned do it, don't hide it behind a poll.

later:wink:

 

[manwon]

I guess it's safe to assume this was not a impartial poll?

Nor do I think Joe is BS'ing just because he's never posted in a Poll thread before.

Also for someone that keeps informed on "these things" I find it odd you said Brain never made it right in your first post when in fact he had. Obviously you DO NOT KNOW ALL THE FACTS just the ones you think are important. So please

So I'm calling BS on your poll. If you want to start a thread to get someone banned do it, don't hide it behind a poll.

later:wink:

First Pii how do you every make it right, is making restitution after more than two years when you are faced with legal action making it right Pii, is that what you consider correct behavior. If it is Phil then nothing more needs to be said and you need to rethink what you consider to be morally right.

But thanks for posting Pii it is always important to fully understand where some one is coming from, and how they feel about what is right in situations like this.

Oh and by the way Sweat Heart, I never hide behind anything my name is posted in my signature block in every post where is your's Pii. I have stayed active throughout this entire thread and I have also done what I intended to do and that is make people aware of the past. If you have a problem with that to bad, because I am laughing at your Superior intellect!!!!!!:rotflmao1::tongue::joyful::nanner::wave3::welcome:

Have a wonderful day Pii, and remember always make things right !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BVal]

After two years it would not be making it right. It would be making you whole again but after that long there is nothing you could do to make it right. Especially since the only reason he paid was because of the threat of legal action - not because he felt it was the right thing to do. If he felt it was the right thing to do it would not have taken over 2 years to do it. Just my opinion.

BVal

 

[TATE]

Sorry, Scruggsinhand caused a lot of anguish to not only Chady and Thompson but all of us here who hated to see them get screwed over. This old thread is like an open wound. None of us were expecting this sort of thing from Scruggsinhand.

Bear in mind, the deceit and outright lies dragged on for weeks, then months, then years. Chady was even ill, hospitalized, and needed to raise funds for medical care. There was an arrogance in Scruggsinhand's answers, just as there is an arrogance in his wanting to return to the boards assuming he is welcome because he eventually made good.

I encouraged Chady to go to the police to report the fraud and the bounced checks. I was hopeful that the threat of criminal and civil action would motivate Scruggsinhand to do the right thing. I do not know what hardship caused Scruggsinhand to do what he did, but considering the business he was doing on cues, I am convinced that he could have and should have squared away these two much, much sooner

Do I give Scruggsinhand credit for refunding them? Of course! It's a big relief that these two eventually got their money back.

But can I forget about it? No, of course not, nor should any of us.

I think Manwon did a public service to all AZ Members by posting his poll.

Chris

 

[hangemhigh]

Sorry, Scruggsinhand caused a lot of anguish to not only Chady and Thompson but all of us here who hated to see them get screwed over. This old thread is like an open wound. None of us were expecting this sort of thing from Scruggsinhand.

Bear in mind, the deceit and outright lies dragged on for weeks, then months, then years. Chady was even ill, hospitalized, and needed to raise funds for medical care. There was an arrogance in Scruggsinhand's answers, just as there is an arrogance in his wanting to return to the boards assuming he is welcome because he eventually made good.I ecouraged Chady to go to the police to report the fraud and the bounced checks. I was hopeful that the threat of criminal and civil action would motivate Scruggsinhand to do the right thing. I do not know what hardship caused Scruggsinhand to do what he did, but considering the business he was doing on cues, I am convinced that he could have and should have squared away these two much, much sooner

Do I give Scruggsinhand credit for refunding them? Of course! It's a big relief that these two eventually got their money back.

But can I forget about it? No, of course not, nor should any of us.

I think Manwon did a public service to all AZ Members by posting his poll.

Chris

My feelings exactly