Should a member who has attempted to steal from other members be Forgiven / Trusted
- Thread starter manwon
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Read all 11 pages and couldn't believe that the refund came without any notice and/or a public apology, how could you string people along for so many years and not apologize profusely about the situation?
Ban him or at least do what you can to keep him from financial transactions here, even if there were extenuating circumstances he didn't present any in the years of questioning. Especially when he was seen buying and selling cues at events which obviously cost him money to go to, how can you make an viable excuse for that kind of action?
It was an amazingly sad story and I read all the pages hoping for a happy result but didn't really see any. $1600 with years of interest + a ton of grief - any apology or excuse = a person that shouldn't be trusted......at all.
Ban him or at least do what you can to keep him from financial transactions here, even if there were extenuating circumstances he didn't present any in the years of questioning. Especially when he was seen buying and selling cues at events which obviously cost him money to go to, how can you make an viable excuse for that kind of action?
It was an amazingly sad story and I read all the pages hoping for a happy result but didn't really see any. $1600 with years of interest + a ton of grief - any apology or excuse = a person that shouldn't be trusted......at all.
If the theft and attempt to steal was factual, than I would have to say ban the member and black list him under a specific forum maybe "Blacklist" with the person's information, that way we can keep other members from falling into their trap if they ever try to come back under a different username. I know it is harsh to kill someone's business, but we have no place for people who steal and take other people's hard earned money. Business ethics are a must, and I feel that in our small community of billiard enthusiasts, to steal from one of us is to steal from the rest of us and no one would ever be willing to deal with them again. If some do deal with the said theif, they might not be enlighten about the facts of the person's slimmy hand history. I think people who steal and scam are the lowest of the low. Yes, maybe they think they have a genius idea up their sleeves, but when it comes down to it, it is just plain wrong. Ban the theif. Just my .02
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Lisa, you certainly have a right to your opinion and I also respect your choice not to post to the poll. I also agree to error is certainly human but, to steal, and resell a cue multiple times, to take other peoples property and try to sell that too, is certainly not an error it is larceny.
Lisa below are your own words:
This is post 110 from this thread: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=36438
Chady, I hope you get him good!!!! He dicked you around forever about that cue, and then he turns around and sells it...like no one on AZ talks to each other...not a terribly bright individual, I'd say.
Good luck to you, and I wish you all the best. You may try giving your local office of the FBI a call, as they have an Internet Fraud Division. Also, if you sent him funds via snail mail, you need to file a fraud report with the US Postmaster General...it is what they do. When you get the Feds involved, particularly the FBI, he'll get a nice little FBI number that will NEVER go away...ever. He'll be a marked man for the rest of his days.
Lisa
Now I undertsand that people have a right to change their mind for whtever reason they choose, and I can respect that also.
But here are few more quotes from the thread above.
Here is where he sold the cue the second time!!!
01-19-2007, 12:21 AM
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chady,
brian WAS seen @ the DCC last week WITH your ebony SW.
he tried to sell it to don sureman.
don was warned that he was a scumbag and didnt do the deal.
he did however sell it to my friend.
my friend knows nothing of this whole story, and has nothing to do with you, but i just wanted you to know the money is now in brian's hands.
PM me if you need any more info or help.
your friend,
chris G
Here is another:
Chady
Here is the update again. Brian traded the plain jane SW to a vendor, which was supposely "sold" to me a couple of months ago. Apparently this is a fraud as he has no intention of sending me the cue nor refunding the money. I will collect all emails and bank transfer information this weekend and seek help from the LA police department to see what they can do about it first thing Monday morning. At the mean time, if you guys ever got his most recent contact info (he might change his phone or address) or actually got the ebony plain jane SW from him, please kindly contact with me through PMs or emails. If any of you guys encountered the same issues with Brian please let me know also. I will put down a list and report to the police as well. Thank you guys for all your help again.
Here is another: How many people does it take before this guys gone!!
Post 70
Tim
10-16-2006, 05:15 AM
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I'm posting this for Jack Lee because his computer is down. Jack is still waiting to get his cue back from Brian. It is a 1992 Bluegrass cue with black and white checkerboarbs on the butt plate. Any info on the cue you can call him at 1-513-425-0900.
More
Tim
10-16-2006, 05:29 AM
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Jack told me that Brian came to his billiardroom and Jack gave him the cue to either sell or make a deal on another cue that Brian wanted. Jack has tried to contact him for quit awhile trying to get his cue back. It was in mid July when he came and got the cue according to Jack. Call Jack after 11:00 am EST to ask him any questions 1-513-425-0900
Another post about the Blue Grass In question:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=42942
You are right Lisa in the end refunds were issued, but to say that these people were satisfied is not realistic, sorry but I again say, we will agree to disagree.
Take care lisa
I know Craig...we rarely share opposed opinions. And yes, I did post those very statements when it all originally went down...it was a big f'ing mess!! And from someone most of us thought it would NEVER come from, because up to that point in time, his rep as a seller here had been stellar for many years. I think most of us felt a real sense of betrayal because he had been so good for so long.
The only point I was trying to make was that, unlike the other scammers who continue to come back like cockroaches after a nuclear event, he was dormant for a long while, and when he did come back, he did take care of his outstanding debts prior to listing anything FS. This tells me that, unlike the others who are just straight-up scammers, something happened in his personal reality to cause such a shift in behavior, almost virtually overnight.
I am not excusing his behavior, not by a stretch...however, he is the only one who has ever come back, under his same moniker, stuck his hand up in the air and said, yeah, I f'ed up, but I want to make it right, and will do what it takes to do so. I take this as a genuine gesture on his part...however, only time will bear this out.
As with many transactions here on AZ....Caveat Emptor!
Take care, buddy!
Lisa
I know Craig...we rarely share opposed opinions. And yes, I did post those very statements when it all originally went down...it was a big f'ing mess!! And from someone most of us thought it would NEVER come from, because up to that point in time, his rep as a seller here had been stellar for many years. I think most of us felt a real sense of betrayal because he had been so good for so long.
The only point I was trying to make was that, unlike the other scammers who continue to come back like cockroaches after a nuclear event, he was dormant for a long while, and when he did come back, he did take care of his outstanding debts prior to listing anything FS. This tells me that, unlike the others who are just straight-up scammers, something happened in his personal reality to cause such a shift in behavior, almost virtually overnight.
I am not excusing his behavior, not by a stretch...however, he is the only one who has ever come back, under his same moniker, stuck his hand up in the air and said, yeah, I f'ed up, but I want to make it right, and will do what it takes to do so. I take this as a genuine gesture on his part...however, only time will bear this out.
As with many transactions here on AZ....Caveat Emptor!
Take care, buddy!
Lisa
I tend to agree with you Lisa. I was pissed off as anyone, because Brian was my friend. I'm still pissed off to be honest, but I also can take a wait and see approach. I think people should know about the past certainly, and for me I'm willing to move forward. I think people should be cautious, use the escrow services to protect their money at the very least. Sure escrow services aren't perfect, but if you are willing to take the chance then that is your choice. Think we all can make up our own minds as most of us are adults.
I know Craig...we rarely share opposed opinions. And yes, I did post those very statements when it all originally went down...it was a big f'ing mess!! And from someone most of us thought it would NEVER come from, because up to that point in time, his rep as a seller here had been stellar for many years. I think most of us felt a real sense of betrayal because he had been so good for so long.
The only point I was trying to make was that, unlike the other scammers who continue to come back like cockroaches after a nuclear event, he was dormant for a long while, and when he did come back, he did take care of his outstanding debts prior to listing anything FS. This tells me that, unlike the others who are just straight-up scammers, something happened in his personal reality to cause such a shift in behavior, almost virtually overnight.
I am not excusing his behavior, not by a stretch...however, he is the only one who has ever come back, under his same moniker, stuck his hand up in the air and said, yeah, I f'ed up, but I want to make it right, and will do what it takes to do so. I take this as a genuine gesture on his part...however, only time will bear this out.
As with many transactions here on AZ....Caveat Emptor!
Take care, buddy!
Lisa
Thanks Lisa, it is nice that while we may not agree we can still respect each others point of view. Lisa, you certainly know how I react to these type situations, we have both been involved in similar posts in the past. I must agree that this guy has a lot of balls coming back here after what he has done. However, that doesn't mean that he has changed in any way shape or form, in fact only time will tell for certain. But, the forum membership must still be warned about his actions, because he made restitution AFTER TWO YEARS, doest make anything right.
Lisa, by doing what I am doing here today, I am only informing others of a threat, I am not telling anyone not to deal with him. If some one chooses to deal this guy that is their decision, but if things go wrong they have no recourse because they were foolish. Information is power, and it is the only power that can guide us all when making decisions, outside of that we are fumbling in the dark.
Take care Lisa.
Hopefully....he just made a HUGE mistake...and can move foreward from this point..it will take a VERRY long time for some on here to truct this person..that should be no suprise...and some will not ever trust him....I have never done buisiness with scruggsinhand, but It will take ALOT of him doing the right thing for me to even consider transacting with him....then I will still be on edge till its completed...I will always be wondering if I am gonna get screwed or not....that is not a feeling I will want...
Id rather transact with people I know and trust on here rather than take a chance of me being the ONE that got shafted...but hopefully he can turn this mistake around....time will tell
Id rather transact with people I know and trust on here rather than take a chance of me being the ONE that got shafted...but hopefully he can turn this mistake around....time will tell
I know Craig...we rarely share opposed opinions. And yes, I did post those very statements when it all originally went down...it was a big f'ing mess!! And from someone most of us thought it would NEVER come from, because up to that point in time, his rep as a seller here had been stellar for many years. I think most of us felt a real sense of betrayal because he had been so good for so long.
The only point I was trying to make was that, unlike the other scammers who continue to come back like cockroaches after a nuclear event, he was dormant for a long while, and when he did come back, he did take care of his outstanding debts prior to listing anything FS. This tells me that, unlike the others who are just straight-up scammers, something happened in his personal reality to cause such a shift in behavior, almost virtually overnight.
I am not excusing his behavior, not by a stretch...however, he is the only one who has ever come back, under his same moniker, stuck his hand up in the air and said, yeah, I f'ed up, but I want to make it right, and will do what it takes to do so. I take this as a genuine gesture on his part...however, only time will bear this out.
As with many transactions here on AZ....Caveat Emptor!
Take care, buddy!
Lisa
Either that, or like many of us might think, he realized that AZB was the best place to sell his stock, and he was probably having a hard time in the last 3 yrs selling anything he had anywhere else, and he realized that even though he didnt want to, he had to come back on AZB to SELL HIS CUES.
Only him and his God will know what really happened and what his motives really are.
All of this is from an outsider looking in since i have never dealt with him.
But everyone is entitled to their opinion. And i will choose to stay away. And most of us appreciate that Craig is keeping the uninformed, informed.
Thanks Joe, my intentions are really that simple, I am just providing information, in an effort to help those who deal with him make an informed decision.
Take care
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Chady and Thomson have both said that this is closed. - They accepted my personal apology and that what happened was personal and was no one elses business - PERIOD - so a public apology will not be given...
If it is not closed for you, then so be it. Make a decision to do/or not do business with me...but enough of this smearing on the forum by individuals NOT INVOLVED...
...I have done 100's of deals without these issues as others have pointed out...
It does seem like my money is good though. I have bought several $$$ cues over the past few weeks....I don't hear/read about any of them complaining...and a few buyers too - no problems there either.
but since we are airing some issues out --
how about a certain Tucker SP cue that was sent to me - loose in a triangle box with basically no packing at all - YES it did happen.
how about a cue maker that I commissioned to make a cue to my design. I front half in two payments for material, pay another 1/3 ($900 total so far) to check it out before final polish and check the shafts out if I want them taken down any. I roll it and it raises at the joint 3/8 inch off of the table. I take the cue back and tell him to call me when its either fixed or replaced. no calls returned - nothing in 5 YEARS...oh btw, the cue shows up in a blue book in the color section.
or the Tad with the crack at the joint- that was stained during a refinish to cover the crack up - from someone here on AZ.
or the TS cue with the cracked shafts - from here on AZ ---
or the SW with a severely crooked handle - from here on AZ ---
or the TS with the refinish and new ivory joint work advertised by a DCC vendor as Scruggs work and sold by that vendor knowing that the work was actually done by someone else...you know who you are...
or the TS sold by a different DCC vendor and advertised as Scruggs work with a refinish and new shafts when they were not either....
the list can go on...believe it...
This is not smearing, it is information that identifies flaws in your moral character on this forum in the not to distant past. Everthing that has been stated is factual, and there is nothing malicious in passing along factual information to other forum members. Forum members have a right to know how you have conducted yourself in the past, and only they have they have the right to decide if they are going to take a chance on you in the future. I agree you owe no one an apology, and you can do whatever you choose to do with regards to this post. But, if the Moderators thought that this thread was a personal attack unjustified on another members reputation this thread would have been deleted or closed by now.
Have a great day, and good luck with your future transactions!!
Chady and Thomson have both said that this is closed. - They accepted my personal apology and that what happened was personal and was no one elses business - PERIOD - so a public apology will not be given...
If it is not closed for you, then so be it. Make a decision to do/or not do business with me...but enough of this smearing on the forum by individuals NOT INVOLVED...
...I have done 100's of deals without these issues as others have pointed out...
It does seem like my money is good though. I have bought several $$$ cues over the past few weeks....I don't hear/read about any of them complaining...and a few buyers too - no problems there either.
but since we are airing some issues out --
how about a certain Tucker SP cue that was sent to me - loose in a triangle box with basically no packing at all - YES it did happen.
how about a cue maker that I commissioned to make a cue to my design. I front half in two payments for material, pay another 1/3 ($900 total so far) to check it out before final polish and check the shafts out if I want them taken down any. I roll it and it raises at the joint 3/8 inch off of the table. I take the cue back and tell him to call me when its either fixed or replaced. no calls returned - nothing in 5 YEARS...oh btw, the cue shows up in a blue book in the color section.
or the Tad with the crack at the joint- that was stained during a refinish to cover the crack up - from someone here on AZ.
or the TS cue with the cracked shafts - from here on AZ ---
or the SW with a severely crooked handle - from here on AZ ---
or the TS with the refinish and new ivory joint work advertised by a DCC vendor as Scruggs work and sold by that vendor knowing that the work was actually done by someone else...you know who you are...
or the TS sold by a different DCC vendor and advertised as Scruggs work with a refinish and new shafts when they were not either....
the list can go on...believe it...
Dude, you took 3 YEARS to issue a refund on a transaction that was never finished, how can you complain?
Just because you got a bad deal, doesn't give you the right to rip off other people.
I am not involved in your transactions, but I have been involved with a deal that was very similar. (It just hasn't been 3 years yet, maybe I should hang on to hope?)
The people you bought/sold to lately, most likely didn't know about your dealings in 2006....So they bear no responsibility...it's all on YOU....
You probably lucked into some money at the casino, or got an inheritance, so you paid people back years later in hopes of rebuilding your reputation...It doesn't work that way. As someone else said, once a thief, ALWAYS a thief.
And no, I will never do business with you...I prefer a Fast_N_Loose (among others) type person...someone who's had hundreds of transactions with no complaints of thievery.
Once you forfeit your integrity, you CANNOT get it back, at least from me. Hopefully others feel the same, and no one else gets roped into your self serving GAMES.
Craig..
You might not remember, but you bought a cue from me and you had no problems with it or its description/etc...actually you informed me that it was better than I had described.
I don't see anything in your comments about that transaction which WAS between us....I guess this was more of my point...you don't hesitate to do this but nothing on the positive transaction that you have personal knowledge of...
I am not going to post anything more publicly about this...it is just going to perpetuate it, IMO>>>
You might not remember, but you bought a cue from me and you had no problems with it or its description/etc...actually you informed me that it was better than I had described.
I don't see anything in your comments about that transaction which WAS between us....I guess this was more of my point...you don't hesitate to do this but nothing on the positive transaction that you have personal knowledge of...
I am not going to post anything more publicly about this...it is just going to perpetuate it, IMO>>>
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Contrition is sincere and complete remorse. Anything less is disingenuous.
Cane em!
Whenever I read threads about folks that have stolen from others all I can think of is swift serious punishment. Thieves set out in most cases to take advantage of others when and where they can. This is a conscious act especially when it is an internet transaction, they set out some bait and wait for some innocent person that they can take advantage of. It reminds me of the young man that was caught spray painting cars in (I think Singapore.) He was caught, tried and sentenced to being caned. There was a big public outcry but he was caned in the end literally. I'd be willing to bet he has never spray painted another car again. Ban them or cane them, but make sure you punish them and maybe they will think twice the next time before they steal from some innocent person..
I do not like thieves they are deceptive and evil..
Whenever I read threads about folks that have stolen from others all I can think of is swift serious punishment. Thieves set out in most cases to take advantage of others when and where they can. This is a conscious act especially when it is an internet transaction, they set out some bait and wait for some innocent person that they can take advantage of. It reminds me of the young man that was caught spray painting cars in (I think Singapore.) He was caught, tried and sentenced to being caned. There was a big public outcry but he was caned in the end literally. I'd be willing to bet he has never spray painted another car again. Ban them or cane them, but make sure you punish them and maybe they will think twice the next time before they steal from some innocent person..
I do not like thieves they are deceptive and evil..
First Brian, I do not hate you, and I really do not dislike you personally only your actions. I will have to check on the transaction you are speaking about, and this is not because I doubt what you are saying, but because I do not remember it. But Brian, it had to be before all the trouble occurred, because I would not have done business with you afterwords.
Brian, never forget that you can have a 1000 great transactions, and even if one go's bad so long as the problems are not truly dishonest in nature they are easily forgotten. But, the problems that prompted this thread were not a lapse of memory, were not a misunderstanding, and since they happened before given the right situation they could happen again.
I am not telling anyone not to do business with you, I am not even telling people not to trust you, my only intent is that they are careful when dealing with you. In time you may get past this, and I hope you can but, that will only happen over time and rebuilt trust.
Have a good day!!
I would just like to point out that according to the thread you posted he has in fact corrected and refunded , I believe, all the money.
I didn't vote because I don't really know the whole story from all sides and without that it's hard for me to call. There are times when I can and will say they deserve a second chance and times when I would say no.
It would be nice though to have a system that lets everyone know that a person is basically being given a second change and to deal with them at their own risk also escrow is highly recommended. Something like a big RED number 2 over the avatar:thumbup:
I do believe in second chances but I don't believe they should be without strings attached. Of course three strikes and your out in my book.
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It would be nice if there was some sort of verification system in place where sellers and buyers had to register all their information and it was duly verified by a third party. However this board is more like the message board at the laundrymat where anyone can post their offerings and it's buyer beware. The mods SHOULD NOT take an active part in deciding which side to agree with in transactions. Transactions are private and not handled by the staff of AZB. It's not AZB's job to police the WFS section.
I believe that it is the member's responsibility to police that section.
If someone comes back trying to sell something then simply make a post linking to their past trangressions. Then it's up to any buyer to decide to deal with him or not. If a buyer does and the deal goes well then chalk a mark up to the good side for the seller. If the buyer gets burned then it's another link to add to the record and the buyer really can't complain.
I think that the mods should stay out of it UNLESS someone is clearly trolling with completely bogus for sale stuff. OR there should be a committe FORMED by ANONYMOUS to us but respected members who collectively decide the fate of any member with a bad track record.
Second chances? It's up to each buyer to give second chances if they know all the information going into the deal.
There are a ton of ways around a userid ban. So doing that won't stop the real scammers. The only really good way is if the community polices the listings. Id's can change but scam listings follow certain patterns that the knowledgeable members can spot.
I believe that it is the member's responsibility to police that section.
If someone comes back trying to sell something then simply make a post linking to their past trangressions. Then it's up to any buyer to decide to deal with him or not. If a buyer does and the deal goes well then chalk a mark up to the good side for the seller. If the buyer gets burned then it's another link to add to the record and the buyer really can't complain.
I think that the mods should stay out of it UNLESS someone is clearly trolling with completely bogus for sale stuff. OR there should be a committe FORMED by ANONYMOUS to us but respected members who collectively decide the fate of any member with a bad track record.
Second chances? It's up to each buyer to give second chances if they know all the information going into the deal.
There are a ton of ways around a userid ban. So doing that won't stop the real scammers. The only really good way is if the community polices the listings. Id's can change but scam listings follow certain patterns that the knowledgeable members can spot.