Sick of all the infighting

[Johnnyt]

Pool in the US is getting more political by the week. Anytime a new tournament or promoter comes along the rest of the industry including the Internet crowd gets on both sides of the fence. Most on AZ know how all this works. You have the guys that work in tournaments on one side if they get hired by the new guy. The ones that don't get hired knock hell out of it until it goes off. They even burn up the phone an PM lines trying to get more people negative about it. If it's a success the ones that knocked it change their tune and jump on the guys nuts to maybe get hired next time. You never hear "I was wrong about it" from any of the nay-sayers.

There is only one way and one way only that pool will ever change for the good. Everybody work together? Not a chance. The players need to pick a few trusted players or trusted businessmen or women to run a players organization. Then when new tournaments come along or any tournament comes along, they vote on if they will attend based on money as advertised that is in escrow and other things that affect their livelihood. I'm sick of all the posturing and infighting. Johnnyt

 

[JCIN]

I am sick of people accepting getting screwed over because it is just business as usual in the pool world. We get the sport we deserve and frankly I think we are getting exactly what we have coming to us.

It would be easy to form a players organization. All you need is money. Who wants to fund and run this organization. I'll wait.

Until the community holds those in it to some sort of standard regarding conduct and integrity it will never be more than it is.

I think you are spot on with your idea Johnny. But when everyone expects everyone to screw them and no one trusts anyone it is tough to put something like what you describe together as you know. So instead of progress we get the same old stuff year after year.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Same Game, Different Day.

It will always be a product of the "Golden Rule" ...

Those that have the MONEY.... also RULE.

Promoters have the money, the players don't.

Trust doesn't come into play at all. Only the money.

 

[Michael-Hoang]

Pool in the US is getting more political by the week. Anytime a new tournament or promoter comes along the rest of the industry including the Internet crowd gets on both sides of the fence. Most on AZ know how all this works. You have the guys that work in tournaments on one side if they get hired by the new guy. The ones that don't get hired knock hell out of it until it goes off. They even burn up the phone an PM lines trying to get more people negative about it. If it's a success the ones that knocked it change their tune and jump on the guys nuts to maybe get hired next time. You never hear "I was wrong about it" from any of the nay-sayers.

There is only one way and one way only that pool will ever change for the good. Everybody work together? Not a chance. The players need to pick a few trusted players or trusted businessmen or women to run a players organization. Then when new tournaments come along or any tournament comes along, they vote on if they will attend based on money as advertised that is in escrow and other things that affect their livelihood. I'm sick of all the posturing and infighting. Johnnyt

Not to be nitpicking, but it really depends on what you mean by "the rest of the industry".

From an exhibitor/vendor's perspective, I can assure you that ALL the vendors/exhibitors want ALL THE TOURNAMENTS to succeed. 100% GUARANTEE.

I would advice anyone that is interested or thinking of putting together any new events to ask for inputs from the potential vendors.

 

[$TAKE HOR$E]

Then when new tournaments come along or any tournament comes along, they vote on if they will attend based on money as advertised that is in escrow and other things that affect their livelihood.

I am sick of people accepting getting screwed over because it is just business as usual in the pool world.

Until the community holds those in it to some sort of standard regarding conduct and integrity it will never be more than it is.

But when everyone expects everyone to screw them and no one trusts anyone it is tough to put something like what you describe together as you know. So instead of progress we get the same old stuff year after year.

Promoters have the money, the players don't.

I would advise anyone that is interested or thinking of putting together any new events to ask for inputs from the potential vendors.

All good points.

 

[lfigueroa]

Pool in the US is getting more political by the week. Anytime a new tournament or promoter comes along the rest of the industry including the Internet crowd gets on both sides of the fence. Most on AZ know how all this works. You have the guys that work in tournaments on one side if they get hired by the new guy. The ones that don't get hired knock hell out of it until it goes off. They even burn up the phone an PM lines trying to get more people negative about it. If it's a success the ones that knocked it change their tune and jump on the guys nuts to maybe get hired next time. You never hear "I was wrong about it" from any of the nay-sayers.

There is only one way and one way only that pool will ever change for the good. Everybody work together? Not a chance. The players need to pick a few trusted players or trusted businessmen or women to run a players organization. Then when new tournaments come along or any tournament comes along, they vote on if they will attend based on money as advertised that is in escrow and other things that affect their livelihood. I'm sick of all the posturing and infighting. Johnnyt

The root of the problem is that the Pool Tournament Model in this country, such as it is, is terribly broken. Over and over again, promoters (even the good ones) get away with advertising an event with X amount of "guaranteed," or "added" monies and that amount never gets paid out.

The cards get shuffled, the rules/qualifications get changed, payouts altered, checks bounced, all (of course) after the players are in place and seated at the table.

And even worse is the fact that we as players and fans, have come to expect, and even worst yet, accept this sorry state of affairs. Perhaps, because pool players are so accustomed to getting screwed over and over, it has become the norm. So now there is a mentality out there, even among people in the industry who should know better, that comes online with the same old refrain: "It's their first attempt (though experienced counsel was available and offered); "It's better than nothing;" ""They did pay out Y amount of money;" and then branding anyone who points out the emperor is nekked as a, "Hater, Whiner, Nay-sayer."

And so here we are.

Again.

That's what I'm sick of.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Mark Griffin]

I agree the infighting needs to stop.

But some of the divisions of this industry are well deserved.

Some of us will not work with others because we know them. And we have had to pick up the pieces of past dealings. I feel a person must act with honor and conduct themselves in an ethical fashion.

Sometimes that does not happen. And many times it shows what a person is made of. There can be extenuating circumstances - there can also be Bulls**t.

Maybe it is time to form an 'informal' group of people who perform to a certain standard. And then newbies could interact with those members for recommendations.

Kinda like the 'good action list' - but there are problems and pitfalls to this (and almost any) solution.

i will offer my services to any good cause.

Mark Griffin
markg@playbca.com
702-719-7665/702-835-2000

 

[miplayerstour]

so many points of view on this topic and

So many are spot on. The saddest part about all of this isn't in my opinion the in fighting because that's human nature and will never go away. Its that so many people, players included don't always remember that pool events aren't all just fun and games for players and fans its a business. As a business you try to avoid losing money but with an industry such as this, where players rarely place themselves in marketable positions and many feel entitled because of talent or being screwed by someone before, there are few given how many there are in total, that actually help to promote events and the game or sport whichever you prefer to call it. Players are not entitled to earn great livings off of events even if promoters did......not that they are because most don't!
Until the business of pool is considered a business with all involved with guidelines that are somewhat standardized, players that work hard to not only promote themselves and events but that also consider themselves business people I'm afraid the situation will not change much. A player organization is needed this is true but not just to stand up for themselves but to make sure as a group they come off to all as a legitimate group that are sportsman and business people. Who holds players accountable for behavior in public in front of fans? Who helps players learn the tricks of marketing themselves so they appear more like a good investment? Who works to get more exposure and advertising dollars for the group and major events they would attend? Promoters are in it to make money or at least break even. The players must go into business for themselves in a sense and far too few do.
Pool is associated with a lot of negative things for many mainstreamers and to be honest not much is done to use that as a marketing ploy like WWF has or to combat that image. Pool lingers and waits for someone to notice how great it is.......that has to stop because to go mainstream it has to be something worked on from each players role and persona to events and make people talk and wonder what's next.
Until so many pieces come together its sad to say this is where it will stay.

We all try to do what we can to help pool look great, get more exposure and to help players make money but, until its organized, done on a consistantly larger scale and all players have bought into a business model and format, the glass ceiling has our nose prints on it.

In summary after all of that ranting..........too many organizations not really doing what's needed, no true organization to hold players accountable but also teach them how to be a success and until we learn to use what's against pool to promote it.........it will remain here with all of us.

Its time to think outside the box and dress it up a little to make it interesting and cool for those that don't know they should love it. Just my opinion in my very tired state of mind.

 

[Maniac]

In my opinion I believe that part of the problem lies in the fact that so many players and fans think tournament winners deserve BIG money for winning. This could be possible (big money) IF pool could ever be entertaining to watch on prime-time television or in an afternoon broadcast on weekends. To me television is the key to big paydays in sports and in my humble opinion pool will NEVER be a success on television, at least not on a major station.

Television coverage by major sports network = big money

Pool = boring enough to watch by MOST people to ever warrant major network coverage.

I nominate Fatboy to start/finance a new pool association and let him run it as he sees fit. I can tell you this, it's gonna take a person/persons with a lot of money to lose before pool players start getting big payouts on a regular basis.

Please remember that these are just opinionated musings by a complete idiot who barely knows which end of a cue stick to hold :grin-square:!!!

Maniac

 

[vagabond]

Pool in the US is getting more political by the week. I'm sick of all the posturing and infighting. Johnnyt

dream on johny,it ain`t changing.Better learn to live with and enjoy the culture.

 

[SJDinPHX]

I am sick of people accepting getting screwed over because it is just business as usual in the pool world. We get the sport we deserve and frankly I think we are getting exactly what we have coming to us.

It would be easy to form a players organization. All you need is money. Who wants to fund and run this organization. I'll wait.

Until the community holds those in it to some sort of standard regarding conduct and integrity it will never be more than it is.

I think you are spot on with your idea Johnny. But when everyone expects everyone to screw them and no one trusts anyone it is tough to put something like what you describe together as you know. So instead of progress we get the same old stuff year after year.

I'm not sure it's tougher now, than it was in my time Justin. But, it is really amazing, how little times have actually changed in the pool world.

In the mid 60's, I made a concerted effort to organize the top player's. It was an absolute exercise in frustraton at every turn.
I honestly felt I tried hard, but I had to give up to keep my sanity, and support myself and my family.

I had no grandoise plans for huge tours or tournaments, I just tried to get the players to band together, and present some kind of united body, to negotiate with prospective sponsors and tournament promoters.

At that time, I think Mosconi and Fats were the only two players in the universe, that had sponsor contracts, paying them a living wage.

In a sense, I was just trying to form a cohesive player's union.

It did not take long to discover that the roving band of hustlers, the top player's of that era... could not see anything beyond the next score, and very few would even consider investing $5 in their own future.

Google the PBA, and you'll be surprised. They were formed only a few years before the first Johnston City tournament. (1959)
They started on a shoestring, 30-40 guy's chipping in. But they held it together, and they're still around today.

It's a rotton shame that we have so much more to offer, than such a comparatively boring sport as bowling (sorry bowler's) and yet they had the foresight to create an entity that surpasses anything YET done in Pro Pool.

Who knows where its going now...if anywhere.

 

[beav99_4life]

I agree the infighting needs to stop.

But some of the divisions of this industry are well deserved.

Some of us will not work with others because we know them. And we have had to pick up the pieces of past dealings. I feel a person must act with honor and conduct themselves in an ethical fashion.

Sometimes that does not happen. And many times it shows what a person is made of. There can be extenuating circumstances - there can also be Bulls**t.

Maybe it is time to form an 'informal' group of people who perform to a certain standard. And then newbies could interact with those members for recommendations.

Kinda like the 'good action list' - but there are problems and pitfalls to this (and almost any) solution.

i will offer my services to any good cause.

Mark Griffin
markg@playbca.com
702-719-7665/702-835-2000

Your analogy to the "good action list" is actually something I've thought of before. I've always wondered how much and what circumstances it would take to actually launch a successful and lasting tour. I know that the "industry" itself is a small one, but aren't there enough companies doing well enough and of good character to support the start of a well-organized tour? I'm not talking about a grandiose "Million Dollar" event; I'm talking about a tour that can offer reasonable payouts and be able to sustain itself over time.

In the past few years I've been fortunate enough to have a somewhat closer look into the industry and its main players and met some amazing leaders who have the intelligence and drive needed for such a venture. Honestly, what are the chances of getting a large majority of the industry's biggest companies to invest in a well-developed business plan that can be presented and explained from every angle; mission plan, marketing, funding, expansion, goals, everything? Or is the industry so small and divided that cooperation and participation of all of these companies is a pipe dream?

 

[unknownpro]

This topic needs its own subforum for any consequential discussion to occur, imo.

 

[SoonerFan]

Your analogy to the "good action list" is actually something I've thought of before. I've always wondered how much and what circumstances it would take to actually launch a successful and lasting tour. I know that the "industry" itself is a small one, but aren't there enough companies doing well enough and of good character to support the start of a well-organized tour? I'm not talking about a grandiose "Million Dollar" event; I'm talking about a tour that can offer reasonable payouts and be able to sustain itself over time.

In the past few years I've been fortunate enough to have a somewhat closer look into the industry and its main players and met some amazing leaders who have the intelligence and drive needed for such a venture. Honestly, what are the chances of getting a large majority of the industry's biggest companies to invest in a well-developed business plan that can be presented and explained from every angle; mission plan, marketing, funding, expansion, goals, everything? Or is the industry so small and divided that cooperation and participation of all of these companies is a pipe dream?

Beav

First, take a look at the word "Support". This word is used all the time but really it should be "Advertising". When a company works with TAR or any other of the various organizations working in pool, they are "Advertising", not "Supporting". They advertise to increase their business. Support would be just giving the money away.

The reason big name companies are not beating the door of pool down to "Advertise" is because they don't feel there would be a return on their investment. Look at NASCAR. Big companies "Advertise" with NASCAR because auto racing has the highest marketing return out there! The companies make money by sponsoring a race team. The fans of NASCAR are the ones who pay the bills. Every NASCAR fan has hats and shirts and who knows what else and they pay big money for them. Until pool has a following like that, we won't have a Pro Tour like we all want.

When consumers patronize the companies that advertise in pool, those companies will advertise there even more. When that advertising space becomes in high demand, then the prices will go up. When promoters can raise a prize purse from the advertising they sell, we will have a pro tour where the players are not just playing for their own money.

So, we as consumers drive the industry with our spending choices.

Spend your money wisely!

SF

 

[stick8]

huh??

DA* iIM GETTING OLD I REMBER WHEN POOL WAS .10 A CUE AND NOBODY ARGUED!!!

 

[Blackjack]

FWIW, the infighting comes from those that are content with the way things are. They fight back because deep down inside they feel threatened about losing their "spot". These people only care about themselves, and they would slash their own grandmother's throat if given the opportunity to satisfy their greed.

For anything to change, the love for the game has to be more important than the love for the money.

Any change will also come with a period of growing pains. Many want instant changes, and that isn't going to happen. The game didn't go into the shitter overnight, it won't be fixed overnight. We can either sit around bytching about it, or we can all get up off our asses and grab a shovel to dig ourselves out of this situation.

Mark Griffin and I have had a few conversations over the past few years, and IMO, he "gets it". We need more people like Mark - but he and his staff cannot do it alone.

I've been preaching unity for years, but until everybody looks at the big picture instead of what they can get in their pockets 5 minutes from now, we'll continue on this same road.

When the march upward begins, let me know - I'll be one of the people on the front line willing to take a shot or two or three or four. I'm not scared of any of the people that are keeping our game down, and they know that.

 

[RBC]

FWIW, the infighting comes from those that are content with the way things are. They fight back because deep down inside they feel threatened about losing their "spot". These people only care about themselves, and they would slash their own grandmother's throat if given the opportunity to satisfy their greed.

For anything to change, the love for the game has to be more important than the love for the money.

Any change will also come with a period of growing pains. Many want instant changes, and that isn't going to happen. The game didn't go into the shitter overnight, it won't be fixed overnight. We can either sit around bytching about it, or we can all get up off our asses and grab a shovel to dig ourselves out of this situation.

Mark Griffin and I have had a few conversations over the past few years, and IMO, he "gets it". We need more people like Mark - but he and his staff cannot do it alone.

I've been preaching unity for years, but until everybody looks at the big picture instead of what they can get in their pockets 5 minutes from now, we'll continue on this same road.

When the march upward begins, let me know - I'll be one of the people on the front line willing to take a shot or two or three or four. I'm not scared of any of the people that are keeping our game down, and they know that.

Blackjack

Thanks for the post! I too will be there with you and Mark.

I do, however, think the money is important. Without money, those who love the game cannot do things for the game. That money can't come from charity either, it has to come from the industry. We don't need the money to be made by those who just take it and go home either. We need it to be made by those who will put allot of it back! I tend to focus on the positive side, so I will not talk about those who are making tons of money right now and not putting any of it back, but I will say that Mark Griffin is not one of them. Mark believes, as I do, that the pool industry must profit for pool to grow. Mark has many great ideas about how to get things together, and he is doing many things right now! Just ask him about the American Grand Masters!

Thanks again.

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

 

[swrooster]

Bowling?????

I'm not sure it's tougher now, than it was in my time Justin. But, it is really amazing, how little times have actually changed in the pool world.

In the mid 60's, I made a concerted effort to organize the top player's. It was an absolute exercise in frustraton at every turn.
I honestly felt I tried hard, but I had to give up to keep my sanity, and support myself and my family.

I had no grandoise plans for huge tours or tournaments, I just tried to get the players to band together, and present some kind of united body, to negotiate with prospective sponsors and tournament promoters.

At that time, I think Mosconi and Fats were the only two players in the universe, that had sponsor contracts, paying them a living wage.

In a sense, I was just trying to form a cohesive player's union.

It did not take long to discover that the roving band of hustlers, the top plater's of that era... could not see anything beyond the next score, and very few would even consider investing $5 in their own future.

Google the PBA, and you'll be surprised. They were formed only a few years before the first Johnston City tournament. (1959)
They started on a shoestring, 30-40 guy's chipping in. But they held it together, and they're still around today.

It's a rotton shame that we have so much more to offer, than such a comparatively boring sport as bowling (sorry bowler's) and yet they had the foresight to create an entity that surpasses anything YET done in Pro Pool.

Who knows where its going now...if anywhere.

Pool needs to increase the grass roots for support. You mentioned bowling, the bowling tour is made possible by all the grunt bowling league players funding the industry with with their attendence in league play and supporting the sponsors with their customer loyality. This breaks down to player and brand loyality. The top bowlers play with and rub elbows with the "lowly" league bowlers because they have been made aware that the grass roots are the cream that pays their salary. On the flip side, a large percentage of members here and top players have a distinct disdain for league pool and it's members. It takes a lot more effort to attain a skill level to pocket ball than to knock down pins. To increase the participation level everyone involved must take a little ownership, come out of the shadows and backrooms, be a spokesman and demonstrate a willingness to be somewhat of an ambassador of the sport. This isn't glamourous but it's the truth. Room owners need to provide free lessons for kids,with discounted pool rates. Promote leagues, create events and enthusiasim that merit attendence. This sounds like and is a lot of work...it would require some top flight players to show intermediate players how too's for FREE. That is probably the deal killer...no one wants to do anything for free. Call it good will or blue sky, more contributors=bigger pots; however, that will require handicap systems and tougher for top flight players to win. Everyone give a little back. Aw, hell with it, just go on hustling the willing and the weak, it's been that way since I can remember.
PS...Huge kudos to the sponsors, streamers, commentators, contributors and everyone involved with the recent up swing in live streaming...this is a GOOD step in the right direction. I would encourage all to put their consumer dollars behind those that make this possible!!!

 

[uwate]

Right now with the sorry situation that USA pool finds itself in, can you blame the players and fans for wanting to recognize what Taylor Road productions did last week instead of vilify them? JCIN's point is well made, but when your past, present and future prospects are so lean, why is it not ok to congratulate a promoter for shipping a few hundred thousand out to the players instead of the million they originally hoped for?

 

[JCIN]

Right now with the sorry situation that USA pool finds itself in, can you blame the players and fans for wanting to recognize what Taylor Road productions did last week instead of vilify them? JCIN's point is well made, but when your past, present and future prospects are so lean, why is it not ok to congratulate a promoter for shipping a few hundred thousand out to the players instead of the million they originally hoped for?

This is what I knew would start to happen. It was not "a few hundred thousand". It was promised to be $185,000 + and to the best of my knowledge (still doing numbers) around $80,000 was paid out that didnt come from entry fees.

If you want to make the "At least they are doing something" argument I will listen but let's keep what actually happened in mind.

If anyone says "Couple hundred grand or $80,000 whats the difference? Its a lot of money." Please just go ahead and ship me $120,000 because honestly whats the difference?