SJM at 2023 Mosconi Cup- Malice at the Palace

[jokrswylde]

While JJ must be held accountable for this poor effort, I don't think he's the problem. Had Eckert coached Team USA and JJ coached Team Europe, it still would have been 11-3. A general whose soldiers are poorly trained will not often fare well in battle.

Perhaps I expect too much of a coach., but when a Mosconi Cup coach holds the post year after year, they have the opportunity to get in the faces of the players and demand that they work on areas in which they have underperformed. There is no evidence that this is being done and players seem to have the same weaknesses year after year.

I can't help but wonder what it would look like had Johan, fresh off of back- to- back wins, been allowed to remain at his post and continue to build the overall program and expectations. Maybe it looks the same, but then again, Nobody thought he could get us to consecutive wins with the outmanned team we had/have. He has stated in a couple different interviews that he asked to stay on, and wanted the job. MR had different plans. Perhaps they weren't too crazy about the US returning to the winners circle?

My guess is that MR will stick with JJ, provided that he wants the post. Of those who have yet to coach a Team USA, I'd like to see Mike Sigel, Allen Hopkins or Kim Davenport as coach. I suspect, however, that MR would go younger, but at this point, I'll pass on anyone who hasn't represented Team USA multiple times.

IMO, it needs to be someone who isn't "one of the boys", and they have to have a strong enough personality to stand up to some of the egos on our team.

 

[skogstokig]

While JJ must be held accountable for this poor effort, I don't think he's the problem. Had Eckert coached Team USA and JJ coached Team Europe, it still would have been 11-3. A general whose soldiers are poorly trained will not often fare well in battle.

JJ is too much of a buddy and idolizes shane. according to mike panozzo, shane said he didn't want to play singles until the third day, and he didn't want to play filler. that shouldn't fly. i doubt johann would've allowed that.

...like to see Mike Sigel, Allen Hopkins or Kim Davenport as coach.

yep, sigel already announced his candidacy..

 

[BJTyler]

I can't help but wonder what it would look like had Johan, fresh off of back- to- back wins, been allowed to remain at his post and continue to build the overall program and expectations. Maybe it looks the same, but then again, Nobody thought he could get us to consecutive wins with the outmanned team we had/have. He has stated in a couple different interviews that he asked to stay on, and wanted the job. MR had different plans. Perhaps they weren't too crazy about the US returning to the winners circle?

IMO, it needs to be someone who isn't "one of the boys", and they have to have a strong enough personality to stand up to some of the egos on our team.

IMO ... if for no other reason than pure entertainment value, Earl needs to be the next MC Captain!!! (taking cover ... now)

 

[VVP]

On paper they were never better than 20% even with Gorst. On average USA was about 40% in each match. It was a race to 11 matches.

Here are the odds with the current FargoRate numbers, which have changed a little since the MC:

View attachment 732760

The US had about a 1 in 6 chance to win -- 16.8%

The bookies didn't have them that far under and that provided an opportunity to place a bet at favorable odds.

I must confess that even as an engineer, probability was never my forte
Just curious if you can do this comparison for the last two years the USA won ... not sure if you have the FR for the players at that time, but it would be great if you do.

 

[The_JV]

Perhaps they weren't too crazy about the US returning to the winners circle?

awesome.... thank you for that

 

[Bob Jewett]

I must confess that even as an engineer, probability was never my forte
Just curious if you can do this comparison for the last two years the USA won ... not sure if you have the FR for the players at that time, but it would be great if you do.

I posted the details for at least one of those. I think they were about 11% the first of those two years. Not a miracle, but not likely either.

 

[VVP]

I posted the details for at least one of those. I think they were about 11% the first of those two years. Not a miracle, but not likely either.

Okay, thanks. I'll try to find it.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Trying to beat your opponent is never malice, it is sportsmanship. Malice would be ...

... what was going on between shots.

 

[AtLarge]

I must confess that even as an engineer, probability was never my forte
Just curious if you can do this comparison for the last two years the USA won ... not sure if you have the FR for the players at that time, but it would be great if you do.

For 2022, check the bottom of this post: https://forums.azbilliards.com/thre...or-players-on-2022-teams.548126/#post-7395177

And for 2021, this one: https://forums.azbilliards.com/thre...or-players-on-2021-teams.537483/#post-7115816

Both use then-current FargoRates.

But here is the same thing from 2019, and look what happened in 2018 and 2019: https://forums.azbilliards.com/thre...or-players-on-2019-teams.502491/#post-6519480

 

[sjm]

I can't help but wonder what it would look like had Johan, fresh off of back- to- back wins, been allowed to remain at his post and continue to build the overall program and expectations.

Johan had Team USA members come to Russia, both to a) play in the Kremlin Cup and b) to train at his academy.

A repeat test of that formula isn't happening anytime soon.

 

[WobblyStroke]

IMO ... if for no other reason than pure entertainment value, Earl needs to be the next MC Captain!!! (taking cover ... now)

Please. Please let this happen. Earl will give us pool's version of this coach....

 

[marek]

While JJ must be held accountable for this poor effort, I don't think he's the problem. Had Eckert coached Team USA and JJ coached Team Europe, it still would have been 11-3. A general whose soldiers are poorly trained will not often fare well in battle.

Perhaps I expect too much of a coach., but when a Mosconi Cup coach holds the post year after year, they have the opportunity to get in the faces of the players and demand that they work on areas in which they have underperformed. There is no evidence that this is being done and players seem to have the same weaknesses year after year.


My guess is that MR will stick with JJ, provided that he wants the post. Of those who have yet to coach a Team USA, I'd like to see Mike Sigel, Allen Hopkins or Kim Davenport as coach. I suspect, however, that MR would go younger, but at this point, I'll pass on anyone who hasn't represented Team USA multiple times.

Sorry but you cant be further from the truth. One name - Johan Ruijsink. He came to european team in 2007 after a decade when Europe won just once. Since 2007 to 2014 Europe won 7 times! Then Johan came to team USA in 2017 and while USA lost 4:11 it was WAY closer than the score shows. In 2018 and 2019 USA won and every US fan here on AZB was saying how bright the future for USA was. Back then even SVB played great in MC!!! But in 2020 Johan wasnt invited as a captain for whatever reason (i know for sure that he considered it as "unfinished business") and JJ was introduced as a captain. And he lost every single year as a captain. This year his counterpart was Ralph Eckert, author of several pool training books, creator of PAT system and one of the best (if not THE best) instructors in the world. The result? Team Europe came to the arena perfectly prepared to kill while team USA came to survive. Dont get me wrong,i love JJ as a super knowledgable tv commentator,i liked him as a player as well. But a coach? Just mediocre in comparison to Ralph - this year you could perfectly see what a great coach can achieve with a team against a team whose captain doesnt have the education or experience of 25+ years of coaching..

 

[Black-Balled]

I can't help but wonder what it would look like had Johan, fresh off of back- to- back wins, been allowed to remain at his post and continue to build the overall program and expectations. Maybe it looks the same, but then again, Nobody thought he could get us to consecutive wins with the outmanned team we had/have. He has stated in a couple different interviews that he asked to stay on, and wanted the job. MR had different plans. Perhaps they weren't too crazy about the US returning to the winners circle?

IMO, it needs to be someone who isn't "one of the boys", and they have to have a strong enough personality to stand up to some of the egos on our team.

It definitely tough.to effectively straddle the line between friend and boss and with no malice, these are pool players we're talking about.

Not the most socially adept group of folks...

 

[sjm]

T

Sorry but you cant be further from the truth. One name - Johan Ruijsink. He came to european team in 2007 after a decade when Europe won just once. Since 2007 to 2014 Europe won 7 times! Then Johan came to team USA in 2017 and while USA lost 4:11 it was WAY closer than the score shows. In 2018 and 2019 USA won and every US fan here on AZB was saying how bright the future for USA was. Back then even SVB played great in MC!!! But in 2020 Johan wasnt invited as a captain for whatever reason (i know for sure that he considered it as "unfinished business") and JJ was introduced as a captain. And he lost every single year as a captain. This year his counterpart was Ralph Eckert, author of several pool training books, creator of PAT system and one of the best (if not THE best) instructors in the world. The result? Team Europe came to the arena perfectly prepared to kill while team USA came to survive. Dont get me wrong,i love JJ as a super knowledgable tv commentator,i liked him as a player as well. But a coach? Just mediocre in comparison to Ralph - this year you could perfectly see what a great coach can achieve with a team against a team whose captain doesnt have the education or experience of 25+ years of coaching..

Thanks for your insights. I'll give this subject a little more thought. I didn't know that Ralph spent time training with Team Europe to get them prepared, but if you know he did, then I stand corrected. I don't believe coaching during the Mosconi itself makes much difference.

 

[YukonCornelius]

What if any difference do you guys think it would make if the teams were selected earlier on and they had more time to prepare, as a team? That's what I would personally like to see. It couldn't hurt.

 

[jokrswylde]

Johan had Team USA members come to Russia, both to a) play in the Kremlin Cup and b) to train at his academy.

A repeat test of that formula isn't happening anytime soon.

Exactly my point. Imagine a guy like that coming to US and setting up his academy...maybe plugging in with the youth scene...having MC players come to train in between tournaments...

 

[Cue Alchemist]

Pounding an opponent over and over when they're already down is malice, and that's what we got here. The term "Malice at the Palace" comes frm a brawl in American pro basketball. The Palace is the home court of Detroit's team.

Sjm, that is great thread title, i enjoyed your write up. Interms of progression of American pool, much of what you reviewed, we have all known about for a while now.(maybe time for a new coach to take over next year) Intresting what you thought about MR, who could see this result coming.

 

[skogstokig]

What if any difference do you guys think it would make if the teams were selected earlier on and they had more time to prepare, as a team? That's what I would personally like to see. It couldn't hurt.

not possible because of the rankings based selections (which is the right way of selection). but the captain should be selected earlier than was the case this time

 

[jasonlaus]

I think he meant two games per set

We still need 8 games in a race to 5 lol

 

[sjm]

Exactly my point. Imagine a guy like that coming to US and setting up his academy...maybe plugging in with the youth scene...having MC players come to train in between tournaments...

If it meant a new and more diligent approach to training, it would be something like when Bela Karolyi came to coach the women's US Olympics Gymnastics team.