So I weighed my set of Aramith Pro Cups against the Cyclop Balls...

lfigueroa said:
Sooooooo, you're just making a guess.

And that's fine. I would like to hear from a science guy: is the contact time longer on a skid and does that change sumthin'?

Lou Figueroa
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Lou,

I too would like a scientific explanation. Slippery/normal & sticky/clingy are two different things to me. I'm having trouble seeing those two different parameters resulting in an equal amount of contact time.

Why do we chalk the tip? So it will grab & not slip when it makes contact with the CB. In which direction does the CB go when the tip slips & in what direction does the CB go when it grabs? When it grabs it compresses. The more the compression the longer the contact time. I know they are not two equally hard objects but it is still slippage vs. grab/friction. Why does collision induce throw exist? Why is it 'negated' with gearing english?

Perhaps I'm missing something.

Here's where my Ask the Scientist sub forum idea might be good. Dr. Dave, where are you?

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
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lfigueroa said:
How is that in disagreement with what I said?

I'm pretty sure that even you would concede SVB adjusts to different CBs, clothes, rails, and other playing conditions, which is what I'm saying: that you need to adjust.

You are getting weirder and weirder, John. Cut back on the ginseng.

Lou Figueroa
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It isn't per se. Shane however is saying that you should not worry about the balls because the balls all play about the same. He is saying that conditions will always be a little different and THAT is what you adapt to.

In my mind your advice, the statement of fact you make, that a player MUST adjust to use these balls is false.

I disagree with it and I bet I could prove that you are wrong. And if I get a set I will prove it.
 
JB Cases said:
It isn't per se. Shane however is saying that you should not worry about the balls because the balls all play about the same. He is saying that conditions will always be a little different and THAT is what you adapt to.

In my mind your advice, the statement of fact you make, that a player MUST adjust to use these balls is false.

I disagree with it and I bet I could prove that you are wrong. And if I get a set I will prove it.
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Fair enough. Let us all know if you ever get a set :-)

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
Fair enough. Let us all know if you ever get a set :-)

Lou Figueroa
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I will. Meanwhile you could use your set to prove your assertions. Set up a shot and the GB and shoot it and show us that the object ball moves differently between ball sets.
 
JB Cases said:
I will. Meanwhile you could use your set to prove your assertions. Set up a shot and the GB and shoot it and show us that the object ball moves differently between ball sets.
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I feel no compunction about what I said. Folks that read what I write can take it or leave it.

Lou Figueroa
 
When the thread was on the topic of 'skid', I had suggested to LOU that the increased friction would result in an increase of contact time.

He did not see that & basically disagreed.

I have had a PM conversation with Dr. Dave.

Per Dr. Dave that is not the case. It is the compression & restitution factors that effects contact time.

Per Dr. Dave, the friction influences the amount of throw in that a shot struck softly at a slow speed & hit with high inside english at 10:30 or 1:30 & cutting the object ball at 30* or more, would throw the ball, in Dr. Dave's opinion, about twice as much if chalk were at the contact point to increase the friction.

I believe the Cyclop Balls rep made reference to these balls playing 'lighter' due to a slight increase in COR due to the composition formula. That might be a factor that made 'skids' more noticeable if indeed these balls do play a bit 'hotter' due to more COR.

I am still having a bit of trouble picturing two spheres colliding on a glancing angle not sticking together longer if the friction between them is increased. In fact that image works for me, even if not accurate.

But, I wanted to clarify that Dr. Dave does NOT agree that the increase in friction will result in an increase of contact time.

I just wanted to make that clear & I thank Lou for the suggestion & I thank Dr.Dave again for all of his time & efforts to make the clarification.

Best Wishes to All,
Rick
 
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ENGLISH! said:
When the thread was on the topic of 'skid', I had suggested to LOU that the increased friction would result in an increase of contact time.

He did see that & basically disagreed.

I have had a PM conversation with Dr. Dave.

Per Dr. Dave that is not the case.

...

I thank Dr.Dave again for all of his time & efforts to make the clarification.
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You're welcome. For those interested, here is a summary of my PM replies on this topic:

"Cling" doesn't actually mean to stick or "cling" together. It just means there is more friction to resist sliding during contact.

The contact time between the balls, which is extremely small, depends only on how the balls compress (in the perpendicular or normal direction) during contact. The amount of sliding or friction between the balls during contact really doesn't affect the contact time. With a cut angle, the CB tends to slide on the OB during contact. At smaller cut angles, the CB and OB slide at first but then "gear" together during contact. This happens sooner with more friction (e.g., with "cling"), but the contact time doesn't change. At larger cut angles, the CB slides during the entire contact time, even with a more-than normal amount of friction.

What changes with increased friction is the amount of loss of relative sliding speed between the balls. With enough friction, the sliding disappears completely resulting in gearing motion. But again, this all happens during the normal ball compression and restitution.

With a typical chalk mark at the contact point, I would expect the amount of throw to generally be about twice (or more) what would normally be expected. For info on what would normally be expected with all sorts of shots, see: TP A.28 - Throw plots for all types of shots.

FYI, all throw effects are summarized (and backed up by supporting resources) here (see items 15-36 in the numbered list beneath the videos and illustrations): squirt, swerve, and throw effects resource page.

To help visualize throw, spin transfer, and cling, see the videos and info in the following resources: cling/skid/kick resource page, outside english resource page, and spin transfer resource page.
 
Dr. Dave,

Thanks & I am glad you did not quote part of my post as I obviously had a subconscious typo error that I have corrected.

Sorry about that & thanks again.

Best Regards & Wishes,
Rick
 
Since the initial post was about ball weight, just adding that I checked my aramith tv pro set, used in good condition. All balls are exactly 167gr (5.9oz), including the measle CB. An extra measle CB that I have, slightly used, is also exactly 167gr. I used a home scale.
 
Get a Grip [no pun intended?]

I heard someone at a local tournament last night "trash talkin" the look of the Cyclops balls. He didn't say anything one way or another about cling, skid, etc.

I hadn't seen the new ball set and so came here to see what people think of them ...

Here's what I think ...

Most of the folks pontificating here are pool addicts [me too!] but don't know jack about physics, chemistry [e.g., the COR of differing resin compositions] or ...

I've found the easiest way to sound like an idiot is to try to debate anything with an idiot. That's a bit gruff, but I'm stickin' with it ...

Dr. Dave knows what he's talking about. Listen to what HE says ... :clapping:

BTW, was Mr. Griffin drunk, tired, stoned, or all three when he responded...? Or maybe he just needs to have his secretary proof his typing. Also, he is probably not very "independent" with respect to his opinion of equipment used at HIS tournaments.

Now it's time to go investigate the look and performance of the ballset so that I can come up with my own opinion on them. Does anyone KNOW who makes/distributes them?

Addendum: Just found out that the balls are made in China and distributed by Diamond Billiard Products. I found a pic online of the ones used at the tournament with the "new" color palette. They look OK to me, but I'd still take a set in traditional colors [assuming that I like their performance once I've tested 'em myself]
 
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I have played every day since the Vegas tournament with the set of Cyclop ball that I purchased there.

On my Diamond Pro there have been only a few skids in all that time and always when I did not put a good stroke on the cue ball.

By contrast, with the Aramith balls I had several skids EVERY DAY.

The Cyclop balls also cut cleaner and are more predictable.

Bill S.
 
filluptieu said:
I used a digital food scale so this is the most accurate scale in the world but it was able to tell me that every Cyclop ball came out to exactly 6.0 ounces while approximately half of the Pro Cup's came out to 5.9 - 6.0 ounces.

Not sure if this so make that big of a deal however it tells me that what Ken said on the stream about these balls having smaller tolerances in weight is true.

I still think these balls play more true but of course im a nobody LOL
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Here is what I'll say about those balls
I played with them in Vegas for 10 days or so in those 10 days there were more skids
Then the whole 2 months I have been home since then.
Maybe it wasn't the balls it was how they cleaned them I don't know
 
real bartram said:
Here is what I'll say about those balls
I played with them in Vegas for 10 days or so in those 10 days there were more skids
Then the whole 2 months I have been home since then.
Maybe it wasn't the balls it was how they cleaned them I don't know
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One thing to also consider regarding ball skid. The dry atmosphere in Vegas. Causes more static electricity which is a suspect in ball skid incidents.

Ray
 
Bigtruck said:
One thing to also consider regarding ball skid. The dry atmosphere in Vegas. Causes more static electricity which is a suspect in ball skid incidents.

Ray
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You could have something there ray

But I have played in Vegas once a year min for 15 year
Never saw even close to the number of skids that we saw this year
 
ENGLISH! said:
I believe that someone said that they bought the formula form Brunswick but the rep said that they played around with the composition to get the colors to set up properly...

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
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Not sure quite how they could have bought the formula from Brunswick. The Brunswick Centennials are made by Aramith with an Aramith phenolic compound, the exact same one used in the Super Aramith Pros.
 
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