What is professional?
Sometimes even the instructors get it wrong
- Thread starter hang-the-9
- Start date
What is professional?
I have watched a lot of his videos, Dr. Dave can do that every time.:wink:
Not according to Dr Dave's video or even my own slow motion video of rail shots. I believe we had the same conversation when you published that test in BD. I'm sure I missed that question about cb direction on a rail shot with inside, but it's obvious that straight inside with no top, and hitting rail first, will simply result in a carom off the OB fairly close to the tangent. An above center cb hit would be needed to get the cb to roll or push passed the tangent of the carom.
But yes, manipulating the cb always decreases the chance of pocketing the ob.
https://youtu.be/qsP-Z6PVHa0
I don't think I have ever learned anything from just watching a better player aside from position paths. How to rack, or bank, or draw, or anything else, needed to learn from a book, video or someone explaining it to me. As many times as people say "play better players", you will not learn much there aside from how to handle yourself in competition. To learn shots, you need to be taught.
Not sure what you mean by ball first when both are frozen, but I play outside english rail shots exactly like you describe, aiming to hit more full. Not sure if it actually hits more full, but it looks and feels like it.
Have you read that book what Jewett suggested?
If not. You should.
Everything matters in these shots and there actually can be two areas on some cuts where ball will go...
I am thinking Cornerman is right this time.
This is exactly what Jack E. Koehler teach on his test on rail shots.
Maybe not shooting with speed when both are frozen. Cueball bounce will get cueball away from rail..
Thanks.
It took quite a few takes because Bob and I had a difficult time judging how much the cushions compress on this table. We kept over cutting the ball (due to cushion compression) because the cushions on this table are very soft. But once we figured that out, the shot was fairly easy to repeat.
Regards,
Dave
.... as long as the CB is still interacting with the cushion after hitting the OB.
Regards,
Dave
I think the key to understanding frozen ball shots is that the ball-ball contact is very brief compared to how long the cue ball is in the cushion. The first is about 0.2 milliseconds and the second is about 10 milliseconds. If the cue ball hits the object ball in the middle of its time in the cushion, it still has plenty of time to interact with the cushion meaning time for the side spin to take.
It's nice to see someone who is a respected authority say this
I have gotten a lot of grief from people over the years, when I told them I thought this was wrong, and that I doubted Willie had even read the book, let alone write it.
Some others I think were tossed together by a writer, were Hoppe Caras Lassiter Fats and Mizeraks books.
The Hoppe Lassiter and Mizerak large paperbacks, are almost identical to look at, which I doubt is an accident.
The first time I ever learned anything usefull from all the books I had read about pool, was when Bob Byrne published his.
It was like finding the answers to magic tricks after hanging around the magician for years and only picking up bits and pieces when he forgot you were watching.
I was fortunate enough to have met him and spent a little time with him in Wisconsin at a tournament long ago , I always wished it could have lasted longer.
Hey! What now?
Great shot to know. And if the CB comes straight over to that opposite side rail and has no spin or very little spin on it, the shooter hit the OB slightly before hitting the rail, causing the CB to lose most of its spin on the rail. Hitting rail first allows the CB to retain its spin as it deflects/caroms off the OB.
If the CB has no spin and you pocket the OB, the CB will head straight across the table whether you hit the cushion 1st or not.
With inside spin and stun, the CB will head down table if it hits of the OB 1st or if it hits the cushion 1st close enough to the OB so the OB hit takes place before the CB compresses (and interacts with) the cushion very much.
For those interested, the rail cut shot resource page has lots of super-slow-mo videos demonstrating all of the possibilities.
That is correct.
Regards,
Dave
Getting back on the original topic I know that when I was beginning to learn the game I saw several books and videos show the "lift the tip" shot for when the cue ball and object ball are nearly touching and the OB is close to the rail. I've heard many times since then that this would actually be a foul because it was not a legal stroke.
Agreed.
Not too convinced about the 2nd statement being a common occurrence (the part in bold). Under normal circumstances, about any speed and an angle like the example you show, the cushion interaction/compression you are describing seems to be insignificant when striking rail first with straight inside spin or stun. Maybe there's a very specific circumstance (like a steeper angle with a very firm hit) that will result in the CB going down table after contacting the rail slightly before the OB, and without having used an above center hit, but it doesn't seem to be the typical CB reaction. I watched the slow motion clip that shows what you are describing, where rail is hit slightly first but it's so close you could say rail and OB were strruck simultaneously, and that was using running english, not straight left/inside. (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-141.htm)
I've shot the shot countless times (with no above-center cb hit) and seem to be able to get one of two results every time: The CB either goes straight across and dies with no spin (lost most or all of its spin by contacting OB first), or it goes straight across while retaining its spin and grabs the rail as intended (CB hit rail first and then glanced off OB). I can't seem to create the action described above in bold, and pocket the ball, at least not anywhere close to this angle.
Maybe it's just me.
Last edited:
Same here....always loved that shot until I found out it was not considered a legal stroke.
Have you watched HSV videos A.128 through A.141 on the rail cut shot resource page? They demonstrated all of the possibilities concerning how far or close the CB hits the cushion before or after the OB.
You also might want to check out all of the other videos, articles, and info on the resource page. They explain, demonstrate, and illustrate all rail-cut-shot effects fairly well.
I hope you find the resources helpful,
Dave