Sometimes even the instructors get it wrong

hang-the-9

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I watched quite a few instructional videos and a few clear wrong things stand out, just watched Bert Kinisters volume 60 The 100.00 Video. He shows some tricks to avoid a double hit. He is wrong in the close shots where he deliberately miscues. First, a deliberate miscue is a foul. Second, during those miscues he hits the cueball with his ferrule, foul part two. In that video he said that all the refs that called a foul on him were wrong, they were not. It was the right call, hitting the cue ball with the ferrule is a foul. It was not a double hit foul, but it was a foul. I have learned a lot from Bert's videos but don't listen to this part.

Steve Mizerak, HOF, a million tournament wins, etc... got the 9 ball break wrong a lot. In his instructional video he stated "if you make a ball you crossed a finger, if you made two, you crossed two fingers". In a match he commentated he said that "see the 9 ball not move, that means the rack was not tight". We know that is exactly the opposite, and a lot of players aim to make a ball on the break. Even outside of the "modern" era of magic racks and perfect cloth and tables, if you watch the Earl vs Efren Hong Kong Challenge match, they were both aiming the 1 in the side.
 
Forty years ago I was telling students to hit the ball and the cushion at the same time for a ball frozen to the cushion because that's what Willie taught me. I finally figured out that Willie was full of it, or more precisely, his ghost writer didn't know what he was talking about. I have no idea what Willie actually thought about the shot.

I finally figured the shot out about 35 years ago. Some instructors still haven't figured it out. They ought to read Koehler. Or even do careful experiments on their own.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Forty years ago I was telling students to hit the ball and the cushion at the same time for a ball frozen to the cushion because that's what Willie taught me. I finally figured out that Willie was full of it, or more precisely, his ghost writer didn't know what he was talking about. I have no idea what Willie actually thought about the shot.

I finally figured the shot out about 35 years ago. Some instructors still haven't figured it out. They ought to read Koehler. Or even do careful experiments on their own.
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The amazing thing is this.

There are many people who start with the "hit ball and rail at same time" advice and later become very accomplished players.

You would THINK they either

(1) spend a career missing those shots, or
(2) decide that advice was wrong

and we don't consider what really happens,

(3) they learn to makes the ball and change their perception of what "hit ball and rail at same time" looks like

and they then tell new players to hit ball and rail at same time.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Forty years ago I was telling students to hit the ball and the cushion at the same time for a ball frozen to the cushion because that's what Willie taught me. I finally figured out that Willie was full of it, or more precisely, his ghost writer didn't know what he was talking about. I have no idea what Willie actually thought about the shot.

I finally figured the shot out about 35 years ago. Some instructors still haven't figured it out. They ought to read Koehler. Or even do careful experiments on their own.
Click to expand...

mikepage said:
The amazing thing is this.

There are many people who start with the "hit ball and rail at same time" advice and later become very accomplished players.

You would THINK they either

(1) spend a career missing those shots, or
(2) decide that advice was wrong

and we don't consider what really happens,

(3) they learn to makes the ball and change their perception of what "hit ball and rail at same time" looks like

and they then tell new players to hit ball and rail at same time.
Click to expand...

And still, there are some rail shots that need to be hit ball first to move the cueball where you need it to be. So the 'rail slightly before the ball' advice is not always true either gents. :thumbup:
 
Chuck Fields said:
And still, there are some rail shots that need to be hit ball first to move the cueball where you need it to be. So the 'rail slightly before the ball' advice is not always true either gents. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Ummmm .... I think that slow motion video shows that it’s still rail first, but where the cue ball goes is dependent on whether the cueball is going into the cushion when hitting the object ball (spin will dictate the direction) or rebounding off of the cushion when hitting the object ball (cueball starts about perpendicular to the cushion),

This is what was theorized a long time ago, and confirmed on slow motion. The object ball can be made object ball first if it’s close to the pocket, but with any decent distance, I don’t think so.


Freddie
 
I guess "tight" when everything was racked with a rack meant something different than "tight" when a template is used. Maybe Steve Mizerak wasn't exactly wrong.

The rail and ball at the same time thing - thats how I learned to play those shots. I now know that it's not that simple or even that at all. But I still play those shots with the ball-rail same time mindset and it seems to work just fine.
 
mikepage said:
The amazing thing is this.

There are many people who start with the "hit ball and rail at same time" advice and later become very accomplished players.

You would THINK they either

(1) spend a career missing those shots, or
(2) decide that advice was wrong

and we don't consider what really happens,

(3) they learn to makes the ball and change their perception of what "hit ball and rail at same time" looks like

and they then tell new players to hit ball and rail at same time.
Click to expand...

Yep. Makes a lot of sense.
 
I get my lesson's on the table playing better players. I don't hire a "teacher."

Who was Efren's pool instructor...Lucky?
 
Tony_in_MD said:
Yeah Miz, Mosconi and Kinister can’t play a lick right?

Crawl back under your bridge.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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LOL. Too funny.

So, the troll expert Pangit thinks Efren never had an instructor, nobody showed him how to play? Nobody taught him the game of 1P. Riiight. :)

You know what they call baseball players who never took a hitting lesson. Bench warmers ;)
 
Bob Jewett said:
Forty years ago I was telling students to hit the ball and the cushion at the same time for a ball frozen to the cushion because that's what Willie taught me. I finally figured out that Willie was full of it, or more precisely, his ghost writer didn't know what he was talking about. I have no idea what Willie actually thought about the shot.

I finally figured the shot out about 35 years ago. Some instructors still haven't figured it out. They ought to read Koehler. Or even do careful experiments on their own.
Click to expand...
The following video also provides convincing demonstrations:

NV I.10 - 9-ball/10-ball Rail Cut Shot Principles and Examples, an excerpt from VENT-V

And articles, more videos and other pertinent info is available on the rail cut shot resource page.

Regards,
Dave
 
Cornerman said:
Ummmm .... I think that slow motion video shows that it’s still rail first, but where the cue ball goes is dependent on whether the cueball is going into the cushion when hitting the object ball (spin will dictate the direction) or rebounding off of the cushion when hitting the object ball (cueball starts about perpendicular to the cushion),

This is what was theorized a long time ago, and confirmed on slow motion. The object ball can be made object ball first if it’s close to the pocket, but with any decent distance, I don’t think so.


Freddie
Click to expand...

Outside english works playing ball first on frozen rail cuts, but you have to hit the ball quite a bit fuller than is comfortable. When you are near straight in or even have both balls frozen to the rail, playing ball first actually helps you make the ball if you are playing the shot with speed. I like to visualize it as if I am banking the ball into the pocket.
 
Chuck Fields said:
And still, there are some rail shots that need to be hit ball first to move the cueball where you need it to be. So the 'rail slightly before the ball' advice is not always true either gents. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Yes, exactly. When hitting rail first, to get the cb to go wider than the OB tangent line, the cb needs top inside (enough top to force the cb forward) because the cb goes into the rail and then caroms off the object ball along the tangent. So to move the cb beyond the tangent you must force it. But if you strike the ob slightly before the rail, using inside spin, the cb easily rebounds in a wider direction beyond the tangent. Hopefully most instructors get this right.
 
BC21 said:
Y ... But if you strike the ob slightly before the rail, using inside spin, the cb easily rebounds in a wider direction beyond the tangent. ...
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I think that isn't true, or at least it is not required and cuts down on your chances to make the ball. You can easily send the cue ball forward by hitting rail first with inside.
 
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