Split Hit

[Joe Pickens]

Is a split hit a good hit or a bad hit? This happened a few times in league play the other night and of course it started an argument. Before I played in leagues I always thought it was a bad hit, but it seems like in leagues most of the players say it is a good hit. Is it in the BCA rule book anywhere?

 

[ctyhntr]

When in doubt, call a referee to watch the hit, otherwise its left to the judgement of the shooter to make the call.

 

[TheOneGnat]

From the BCA rule book:

1.31 Simultaneous Hit
A simultaneous hit with a legal and an illegal object ball is legal.

 

[Mr. Wiggles]

Split hit

From the BCA rule book:

1.31 Simultaneous Hit
A simultaneous hit with a legal and an illegal object ball is legal.

Good job Nat! However, and there is always a however, any ref will tell you he would never call a split hit. He has been trained to make a decisive decision. I believe most refs will tell you if they can't call it bad then it's good. Talking about real refs, certified and all that, not someone called to the table. Also in my opinion the split hit rule contradicts the rule that your group must be hit first. Can you imagine the guy that says my intent is to make the split hit, that was my plan all along. Let's have some refs chime in on how many split hits they have called!!

 

[Masayoshi]

A true split hit will very rarely, if ever occur. 99% of the time a player who knows how balls react reasonably well can figure out which ball was hit first due to the reaction of the object balls. In the very rare case where it is too close to call, the call goes in favor of the shooter.

One more thing. If there was no ref or person agreed upon to watch the hit and the two players disagree on whether or not it was a good hit, the call would fall in favor of the shooter. Just as a rule of thumb, the one at the table is correct in questionable circumstances.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

However, and there is always a however, any ref will tell you he would never call a split hit. He has been trained to make a decisive decision. I believe most refs will tell you if they can't call it bad then it's good. Talking about real refs, certified and all that, not someone called to the table. Also in my opinion the split hit rule contradicts the rule that your group must be hit first. Can you imagine the guy that says my intent is to make the split hit, that was my plan all along. Let's have some refs chime in on how many split hits they have called!!

I is a VNEA ref. You are correct Mr. Wiggles. I like your post and your analogy of the question. The BCA split hit rule is the same in VNEA.
I also like the quote, If you can't call it bad, then its good.
There are times that a shot is so close that you can't call it. I was taught that there is nothing to be ashamed of if under those circumstances, you have to say," I'm sorry, that shot was too close to call". Benefit then goes to the shooter.

And the true definition of a split hit is exactly that, its split and therefore too close to call. Thats why under the foul rules, a split is not considered a foul.

Rather than the shooter that will intentionally split the balls, there are those that will wind up and shoot the shot at 40mph on purpose to screw you up. There are ways around that as well but it does make the call considerably tougher.

 

[Fatboy]

in all my years of sweating pool, i can count on one hand how many times I have seen a hit that "Was too close to call", how the balls react after the hit will more often than not tell you if the hit was good.

A few years back Busta had a hit in a big tournment where he lucked in the 9 ball on a hit that was hard to tell, thats the only one I know on video. I cant recall any others.

The real problem is there are lots of Ref's that just dont have the experience to call hits. I'm not knocking anyone just saying that in most cases of confusion can be chalked up to lack of experience. I have seen guys asked to watch a hit by 2 guys gambling, they are so eager to be part of the action the sat "Sure I'll watch it" then after the hit "I dont know It was too close"-when the reality was the hit was clear, the ref wasnt. While I appericate people willing to help you gotta make sure the guy you ask to watch the hit is capable. Jay Helfert Is rock solid, I never see him say "I dunno, it was too close". Its all about experience.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

i can count on one hand how many times I have seen a hit that "Was too close to call"

Sure, whether the balls are frozen or 1/2 inch apart, you can tell which ball was hit first depending on the reaction of either object ball and the cue ball.

Exactly why I mentioned that guys will shoot the balls faster than they need to be just to mess with you. It happens.

Theres a lot of variables that can influence a call, but seriously, I think you'll agree that watching from the side line is much different than right over the shot. Thats when theres as much pressure on a ref as the players.

I've only been a ref for 2 years so still learning but haven't missed a call yet.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Is a split hit a good hit or a bad hit? This happened a few times in league play the other night and of course it started an argument. Before I played in leagues I always thought it was a bad hit, but it seems like in leagues most of the players say it is a good hit. Is it in the BCA rule book anywhere?

The wording of the WPA rule was changed in 2008, I think. Here is the current section, which is in the Regulations and not the Rules section:

26. Split Hits
If the cue ball strikes a legal object ball and a non-legal object ball at approximately the same instant, and it cannot be determined which ball was hit first, it will be assumed that the legal target was struck first.

​

Note that this doesn't require the hit to be simultaneous, it just requires it to be impossible for the referee to say which was struck first. As others have pointed out, a referee who is familiar with how the balls work can usually tell which ball was struck first, but not always.

For those who think they know the rules, here is a video quiz to test your knowledge: http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-61.htm The quiz includes several shots in the undecidable category.

 

[Masayoshi]

I would also advise refs put in this situation to only rule "good hit" or "bad hit". Saying "It was too close to call, so by the rules it was a good hit," will just create animosity and doubt in your abilities as a ref even more so than making a bad call.

 

[Str8PoolPlayer]

We run into the age-old dilemna EVERY week in Bar League 8-Ball.

Most often, the Shooter will drill the balls (in question) so as to
make it nearly impossible to make the correct call.

Just more of the normal bulls**t with League players.

At the bigger Tournaments, says Hard Times, we have the TD handy to make
a (hopefully) unbiased call.

 

[renard]

Is a split hit a good hit or a bad hit? This happened a few times in league play the other night and of course it started an argument. Before I played in leagues I always thought it was a bad hit, but it seems like in leagues most of the players say it is a good hit. Is it in the BCA rule book anywhere?

We often look at the object balls on a split hit to determine the outcome but that's wrong....Whitey never lies. Its either a foul or its not. The cue ball will tell you by what it does during the hit.

 

[Mr. Wiggles]

Goog hits

I is a VNEA ref. You are correct Mr. Wiggles. I like your post and your analogy of the question. The BCA split hit rule is the same in VNEA.
I also like the quote, If you can't call it bad, then its good.
There are times that a shot is so close that you can't call it. I was taught that there is nothing to be ashamed of if under those circumstances, you have to say," I'm sorry, that shot was too close to call". Benefit then goes to the shooter.

And the true definition of a split hit is exactly that, its split and therefore too close to call. Thats why under the foul rules, a split is not considered a foul.

Rather than the shooter that will intentionally split the balls, there are those that will wind up and shoot the shot at 40mph on purpose to screw you up. There are ways around that as well but it does make the call considerably tougher.

Thanks, Blue Hog, always feels good to be right. In most league situations a REAL referee is not available. Our teams usually call on the most skilled and respected players in the room to watch hits. Most players respect their calls. If that type is unavailable we call on the best player or most respected player on the OTHER team. Now you really have nothing to gripe about. Most teams reciprocate this courtesy on later calls. I can't speak for APA but in BCA it's called integrity!

 

[jay helfert]

You guys pretty well cover it here. One thing that an experienced ref learns is where to stand to see the hit. To often I see the ref standing behind the player. WRONG! I want to see the cue ball coming toward me whenever possible. Yes, the player can see me, I am in his line of sight. But if you stand perfectly still, it should not be a problem for the player. 99 times out of 100 it is not hard to call the hit. The one time that it is, you have to rely on the movement of the balls after contact. It's so rare that there truly is a split hit. In that case I never call a foul.

To direct a major tournament and do a good job, I want to have a perfect record on calls. 100%! And I will make anywhere from 75 to a 100 calls during an event. That's about the average. I can do this most tournaments. About half the time, I feel like I might miss one call all week. So maybe four or five missed calls all year. No one is perfect! But the players all remember your one missed call. They quickly forget all the ones you got right. :smile:

 

[Lexicologist71]

The problem with the 'split hit' is that it really isn't possible for a human being to cause a ball to roll into two other balls at exactly the same instant. There's going to be some hair splitting and there are rules to enforce depending on which side wins. At that point, you use forensics. How the balls react to one another will show you (usually) what actually happened if the action is too close to decide using your human eye.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Heres an example of something you guys can set up next time you are doing some drills.

1. Freeze two object balls and try to hit them straight in the middle.
Observe what the cue ball does. Now, purposely hit the object ball on the
right ever so slightly and again, watch the cue ball. Then do the same with the object ball on the left and observe.

Now, try and hit the exact center with both a soft stop shot, top and then a little bottom. Watch what happens.

2. Separate both object balls. You can try a few with the object balls, say 1/4, 1/2 and 1 inch apart and do the same steps as described in number 1.

If you are interested enuff to study this drill, it will make you much more aware and better qualified the next time someone asks you to ref a shot like these two.

Give it a whirl, its actually fun and you will learn something new. After you are confident that you know where the cue ball and object balls are going, ask a buddy to make these shots for you, while you are standing over the balls and see if you are confident
to make accurate calls on these shots.

If you do them correctly, you will see a pattern with the cue ball that will happen 99.9% of the time.

Then, with the balls separated, ask yourself what happens if the shooter uses either right or left english to throw either ball.
Now we're getting into some fun stuff,right?

And by all means, please visit Dr. Daves site and take the ref quiz. See how you do on the calls, watch the video again and make the calls once more and see if you can improve your watching skills. It definitely was a benefit for me. Dave also has a couple of little eye openers on there as well.

 

[delarge]

in all my years of sweating pool, i can count on one hand how many times I have seen a hit that "Was too close to call", how the balls react after the hit will more often than not tell you if the hit was good.

A few years back Busta had a hit in a big tournment where he lucked in the 9 ball on a hit that was hard to tell, thats the only one I know on video. I cant recall any others.

The real problem is there are lots of Ref's that just dont have the experience to call hits. I'm not knocking anyone just saying that in most cases of confusion can be chalked up to lack of experience. I have seen guys asked to watch a hit by 2 guys gambling, they are so eager to be part of the action the sat "Sure I'll watch it" then after the hit "I dont know It was too close"-when the reality was the hit was clear, the ref wasnt. While I appericate people willing to help you gotta make sure the guy you ask to watch the hit is capable. Jay Helfert Is rock solid, I never see him say "I dunno, it was too close". Its all about experience.

when the cueball is hit extremely hard, many times it is too close to call when the balls are in the right positions (this is why looking to see how the balls react is really the only way to call a hit like this imo). in fact, if there is a ref, this can even be used as a type of "strategy" to get a good hit called, and there is really nothing wrong with this either i dont think. another thing, i think it would be prudent for refs to ponder certain hits for a moment after it takes place-- i think in general, even experienced refs call too quick! why!? this is pool, we are not in a hurry.... we (the refs) should use that to our advantage.

the real problem here is, as i think we all know, bad players say "split" all the time, and after just assume it was all good cus they called it. where did this faux pas come from anyway?

 

[Scott Lee]

Jay...The truth is that an experienced ref doesn't even need to see the shot. All they have to see is the ball placements before the shot, and after the shot. As you mentioned, the direction the CB travels is almost always the determining factor on whether it was a good hit or not.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

You guys pretty well cover it here. One thing that an experienced ref learns is where to stand to see the hit. To often I see the ref standing behind the player. WRONG! I want to see the cue ball coming toward me whenever possible. Yes, the player can see me, I am in his line of sight. But if you stand perfectly still, it should not be a problem for the player. 99 times out of 100 it is not hard to call the hit. The one time that it is, you have to rely on the movement of the balls after contact. It's so rare that there truly is a split hit. In that case I never call a foul.

To direct a major tournament and do a good job, I want to have a perfect record on calls. 100%! And I will make anywhere from 75 to a 100 calls during an event. That's about the average. I can do this most tournaments. About half the time, I feel like I might miss one call all week. So maybe four or five missed calls all year. No one is perfect! But the players all remember your one missed call. They quickly forget all the ones you got right. :smile:

 

[Big Perm]

Is a split hit a good hit or a bad hit? This happened a few times in league play the other night and of course it started an argument. Before I played in leagues I always thought it was a bad hit, but it seems like in leagues most of the players say it is a good hit. Is it in the BCA rule book anywhere?

Typically, you can tell by the angles and speed of the balls hit.....IMHO, if it's that close, tie goes to the shooter and keep going....good sportsmanship is free...

 

[Scott Lee]

Blue Hog ridr...Even easier, set the shot up with a third OB frozen on the backside of the other two, about 5-6 inches directly in front of the side pocket. Try to pocket the back OB, by shooting a "split hit". You may make it 1/1000, but mostly it will not go into the side unless you strike one of the two front balls first. Jerry Briesath taught us this shot 30 years ago, to show that true split hits are, as mentioned, rare, if not impossible.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Heres an example of something you guys can set up next time you are doing some drills.

1. Freeze two object balls and try to hit them straight in the middle.
Observe what the cue ball does. Now, purposely hit the object ball on the
right ever so slightly and again, watch the cue ball. Then do the same with the object ball on the left and observe.

Now, try and hit the exact center with both a soft stop shot, top and then a little bottom. Watch what happens.