The APA can kiss my.......

[$TAKE HOR$E]

$take Hor$e,

The Diamond tables are so good, they make playing on Valley's torture. Wow, I hit that shot real good and it still hung. Translation, the shot hit short and it jarred. Back home that shot falls. Yep, on a Valley the shot does fall. You really missed it though!

At this years BCAPL Nationals, I played my first set absolutely flawless. didn't miss a shot. Never out of position. Just perfect! Later that day, I showed up for my second match. Got an earful from a BCAPL person about the level of my play. He got complaints.

Lyn

Diamond tables are the best and its a shame they do not have them at all events. Do you think who ever bltched about your play would have went to one of the BCAPL people and told them they just played a real good match and wanted someone to come watch their next one if they wouldl have won, yeah right. What it all boils down to is, over 90% of the people who play are sore losers and when they get a taste of their own medicine its not so good. Even though you see this way more in the APA than any other league you still get those people who are stuck as an A, B, or C player and will never get any better so they cry foul when they lose. I think its funny when I tell people " yeah I cheated or sandbagged for several years keeping my handicap down because that is the only way you are going to win on a higher level ".

 

[cardiac kid]

Nie post. As for the low turnout at the master's final's you can thank the casino for most of that.

It was posted a while back that the Riviera had filed for bankruptcy and that this was the last year the tournament would be there, can anyone verify this. Imo it may not be the best hotel/casino but is is best for the players because it is cheap. If you take the price of rooms from other casinos out there you can bet that if it moves then turnout will be far less. I talked to the Wynn a few months ago about rooms and the cheapest one was well over $200 a night during the week and that is the next hotel from the Riviera. A few years ago there was a pool event going on down in the newer part of the strip at the same time as the APA nationals but it had no where near the room to accommodate the APA and the thousands of players that are involved.

You're correct, the Riv may be gone next year. The CSI (BCAPL) held an event at the Golden Nugget Downtown. The Hotel has room for all the National events. Whether or not anyone would want to hold an event on Fremont Street is another question. Room prices in Vegas have crashed in the past year. Rooms at the Wynn were under $100 per night for a while. Encore was brand new and no where near full. Under $200 rooms there instead of $400 and up. You just gotta look and ask.

Rooms at the Riv were way high regardless of the event. People were staying a block away for $40 to $60 per night instead of the "bargain" $89. My best guess is people want to stay at the event site whether or not the price is fair. Convenience rules! The Hilton Hotel behind the Riv is an alternative. They sure have room for the tournament. Whether they have sufficient capacity for a great percentage of the players to stay is another story.

Lyn

 

[cardiac kid]

Diamond tables are the best and its a shame they do not have them at all events. Do you think who ever bltched about your play would have went to one of the BCAPL people and told them they just played a real good match and wanted someone to come watch their next one if they wouldl have won, yeah right. What it all boils down to is, over 90% of the people who play are sore losers and when they get a taste of their own medicine its not so good. Even though you see this way more in the APA than any other league you still get those people who are stuck as an A, B, or C player and will never get any better so they cry foul when they lose. I think its funny when I tell people " yeah I cheated or sandbagged for several years keeping my handicap down because that is the only way you are going to win on a higher level ".

Tap, tap, tap!

Lyn

 

[$TAKE HOR$E]

Room prices in Vegas have crashed in the past year. Rooms at the Wynn were under $100 per night for a while. Encore was brand new and no where near full. Under $200 rooms there instead of $400 and up. You just gotta look and ask.

Rooms at the Riv were way high regardless of the event. People were staying a block away for $40 to $60 per night instead of the "bargain" $89. My best guess is people want to stay at the event site whether or not the price is fair. Convenience rules!
Lyn

I really wished I would have followed up on the Wynn before I went since I wasnt playing pool.

I stayed with some friends at the Riv and the room was $400 for 7 nights.

 

[Mark Griffin]

Riviera

OK - here are the facts.

First of all, thanks for all of the nice comments on our event and our use of the Diamond Tables.

Now onto the Riv. The Riv has not declared bankruptcy, but they might. They have gone through and survived TWO previous bankruptcy proceedings. They will still be open even if they do file.

We di have an event at the Golden Nugget. They now have 2400 rooms but only 16,000 square feet for pool tables. We us over 110,000 feet at the Riv. There is NO WAY we can move to the Golden Nugget.

The Hilton might have enough room but they have no interest in having pool players (last time they were talked to) Beats me but that is how it is. They have around 2000 rooms or so.

I think the Riv room swere a little high too. But they have a lot of costs to put on our event. It is almost criminal for the Circus to 'steal' the players with cheap rooms (some are really bad if you believe the forums) and not contribute anything to offset the expenses. If everyone did this, the events will go away.

If we ever have to move, you can bet the rroom cost w2ill go way up and the events will shrink. So we need to support the Riv. We have had meetings with them recently and are brainstorming to come up with incentives for the players to stay at the Riv. We are open to suggestions.

Maybe a bonus for players that win who are staying at the Riv? Maybe drawings for pool sticks, cash, or ????

Riv is concerned. They cannot control the market of rooms in Vegas. Times are strange and we need to come up with good answers.

Mark Griffin
markg@playbca.com
702-719-7665

 

[1on1pooltournys]

OK - here are the facts.

First of all, thanks for all of the nice comments on our event and our use of the Diamond Tables.

Now onto the Riv. The Riv has not declared bankruptcy, but they might. They have gone through and survived TWO previous bankruptcy proceedings. They will still be open even if they do file.

We di have an event at the Golden Nugget. They now have 2400 rooms but only 16,000 square feet for pool tables. We us over 110,000 feet at the Riv. There is NO WAY we can move to the Golden Nugget.

The Hilton might have enough room but they have no interest in having pool players (last time they were talked to) Beats me but that is how it is. They have around 2000 rooms or so.

I think the Riv room swere a little high too. But they have a lot of costs to put on our event. It is almost criminal for the Circus to 'steal' the players with cheap rooms (some are really bad if you believe the forums) and not contribute anything to offset the expenses. If everyone did this, the events will go away.

If we ever have to move, you can bet the rroom cost w2ill go way up and the events will shrink. So we need to support the Riv. We have had meetings with them recently and are brainstorming to come up with incentives for the players to stay at the Riv. We are open to suggestions.

Maybe a bonus for players that win who are staying at the Riv? Maybe drawings for pool sticks, cash, or ????

Riv is concerned. They cannot control the market of rooms in Vegas. Times are strange and we need to come up with good answers.

Mark Griffin
markg@playbca.com
702-719-7665

Maybe they hand everybody who stays in the room 100 dollars.

 

[$TAKE HOR$E]

I think the Riv room swere a little high too. But they have a lot of costs to put on our event. It is almost criminal for the Circus to 'steal' the players with cheap rooms (some are really bad if you believe the forums) and not contribute anything to offset the expenses. If everyone did this, the events will go away.

If we ever have to move, you can bet the rroom cost w2ill go way up and the events will shrink. So we need to support the Riv. We have had meetings with them recently and are brainstorming to come up with incentives for the players to stay at the Riv. We are open to suggestions.

Maybe a bonus for players that win who are staying at the Riv? Maybe drawings for pool sticks, cash, or ????

Riv is concerned. They cannot control the market of rooms in Vegas. Times are strange and we need to come up with good answers.

Mark Griffin
markg@playbca.com
702-719-7665

I stayed at the Circus last year and the room was nicer than at the Riv and was actually a few $ more. Just out of curiosity what big costs do they have for the event. They make more money in the roughly 10 day period than they would if the pool players were not there, especially when their buffet is $20 and there is a line 50 people deep most of the time. Dont the vendors also pay to set up booths for the entire time. They are a casino and make tons of money off people. In the APA 8 ball event there were 712 teams and if each of them had just 5 players that is over 3500 extra people in their casino just for that one event.

Do you mean a bonus for winning in the casino or the tournament.

 

[DelaWho???]

I stayed at the Circus last year and the room was nicer than at the Riv and was actually a few $ more. Just out of curiosity what big costs do they have for the event. They make more money in the roughly 10 day period than they would if the pool players were not there, especially when their buffet is $20 and there is a line 50 people deep most of the time. Dont the vendors also pay to set up booths for the entire time. They are a casino and make tons of money off people. In the APA 8 ball event there were 712 teams and if each of them had just 5 players that is over 3500 extra people in their casino just for that one event.

Do you mean a bonus for winning in the casino or the tournament.

The out buildings A,B,C,D,E rooms sucked. I was in the A building for my first night, and it was a dive. Half of the outlets didn't work, the matresses on both beds worn down to the springs, stains on the chairs so big and disgusting you didn't want to sit down, and don't get me started on the condition of the bathroom or carpet. I complained and was promptly moved into the West Tower, where the room was really nice. If I make it next yr, I don't know where I'll stay. I sure don't want to pay premium prices to stay in a dive.

 

[btoneill]

We have had meetings with them recently and are brainstorming to come up with incentives for the players to stay at the Riv. We are open to suggestions.

I'm one of the people who can be bought for cheap...

Make a players package for X number of nights at Y cost. In that cost it includes little "freebies" like t-shirt, luggage (ie cue case) tags, and a microfiber logo towel. Also include in the package buffet coupons and a couple of drink coupons. The package "freebies" should also not be available for sale at the event, which means you'd produce the exact amount based on reserving by Z date.

Brian

 

[Mark Griffin]

BCAPL and Riv

We appreciate the ideas. Keep em coming.

I feel it is important for players to support places that support them. But it is also the responsibility of those venues to be reasonable competitive.

That is all we are trying to do.

Let's come up with some ideas that the Riv can accomplish which gets the players to stay at the Riv. That makes it a win-win for everyone. And that makes it a WIN for billiards.

Mark Griffin
markg@playbca.com

 

[tigerseye]

tigerseye...Many APA Masters leagues are played on 9' tables...some of the regular APA leagues play exclusively on 9' tables. The APA Amateur Nationals are all played on 9' tables. The APA, by definition, though, is a BAR league, where MOST tables are BAR tables. Do you not consider the winner of the Sands tournaments in Reno, champions...simply because they play the tournament on 7' tables? Now...what was it you were asking?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

If it is not on 9' tables then they are merely kiddie pool champions...
Champions but not the best caliber players...
If you think that they are then you must on the recieving end of the cash flow the APA puts out....
No one with any pool experience would agree that bar tables are the true test of pool at it's best...
NO ONE...
Now what was that YOU were saying??

 

[tigerseye]

I have been to Vegas 4 times(once for singles). I have never seen a 3 shoot like a 6. As far as table preference what does it matter if it is a Diamond or a valley as long they roll straight and the rails arent dead

Had a 2 run 3 racks of 8-ball in the same match this year...Our league operator wrote them up but what do you do about the ass whippin that person layed on the player they played??

I bet if they change the place where they hold this event and it goes busted in less than 5-years....BET?

 

[Neil]

.................

 

[pooltchr]

If it is not on 9' tables then they are merely kiddie pool champions...
Champions but not the best caliber players...
If you think that they are then you must on the recieving end of the cash flow the APA puts out....
No one with any pool experience would agree that bar tables are the true test of pool at it's best...
NO ONE...
Now what was that YOU were saying??

Just for fun, why not go over to the Smokey Mountain Shoot-out and try to sell that line to the players over there. Or better yet, take a few of them to school on those bar boxes and show them what kiddie players they are.

Bar boxes and 9 footers are two different animals, and each requires some very specific skills to excel.

Steve

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

...I think the Riv room swere a little high too. But they have a lot of costs to put on our event. It is almost criminal for the Circus to 'steal' the players with cheap rooms (some are really bad if you believe the forums) and not contribute anything to offset the expenses. If everyone did this, the events will go away.

If we ever have to move, you can bet the room cost w2ill go way up and the events will shrink. So we need to support the Riv. We have had meetings with them recently and are brainstorming to come up with incentives for the players to stay at the Riv. We are open to suggestions.

Riv is concerned. They cannot control the market of rooms in Vegas. Times are strange and we need to come up with good answers...

Mark Griffin
markg@playbca.com
702-719-7665

I see no reason why the host hotel shouldn't get a reasonable premium for the convenience of staying on-site. But there are limits to what is reasonable. For instance, it seems some of the outlying wings aren't much more convenient than staying across the street, and it also sounded like the quality of the rooms outside the main towers were sub-par.

I would suggest that the Riviera offer guaranteed room locations for those who reserve early enough to get a premium room / premium location. For those staying in the lower quality rooms or farther away locations they should satisfactorily reduce the cost on those rooms to be competitive with the other properties around them. Same goes for if one well located tower has newly redecorated rooms and another tower does not. Charging the same for both only ends up with 50% of the hotel guests being disappointed.

I wasn't playing in the BCA event but came in for the week to watch the pros. I stayed at the Luxor because I had a guaranteed Tower room for $65 rather than who knows what for $89. I tend to be a traveler that likes a nice room and am willing to pay for it rather than settle for less. I booked the Luxor because I knew what I was getting.

But there are all types of travelers. Some like me that are willing to pay for a decent room would stay at the Rivi for the convenience as long as they have a quality room in a good location available. When they run out of those rooms they will lose that type of traveler to another hotel. Some are more price conscious. The Riv should not expect much of a premium from this traveler just to be at the venue. So if their cheaper rooms are not price competitive, they will lose this traveler to another property as well.

Being price competitive cannot be over estimated at the BCA Nationals because unlike the average visitor to Las Vegas, people coming into town for this tournament are staying for 8-10 days, not the usual 2-3 night guest these hotels live on. The hotel needs to realize that any cost differential can be substantial for the players.

Also, the only thing the Riv didn't get from me was the room tab. I spent all my time there and ate, drank, and gambled there.

Having all the food alternatives up and running next year ought to resolve some of the limited pricing and cuisine options from this year.

 

[cardiac kid]

I feel it is important for players to support places that support them. But it is also the responsibility of those venues to be reasonable competitive......lets come up with some ideas that the Riv can accomplish which gets the players to stay at the Riv. That makes it a win-win for everyone. And that makes it a WIN for billiards.Mark Griffinmarkg@playbca.com

Mark,

In a perfect world, the Riv might receive the loyalty of the players. Every player I've spoken with here in Rochester was struck by the incredible lack of service. Whether it was at the bar, restaurant, buffet, check in, dealers, whatever and whenever, the Riv staff failed their patrons. Us, the pool players. Closing some of the food court during the prime tournament week for renovations? Who's in charge there? What's the alternative, go to Kady's? Wait and wait for service at all hours. Go to the snack shop in the sports book? Oh wait, it was closed as well! I won't even get into the buffet. Telling me to buy a twelve oz bottle of water for $2.50 at a bar inside the arena when I can walk a very short distance to the ABC store and get twice the amount for a buck? Then threatening me with expulsion if I bring that water into the arena? The Riv is creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. They are the ones who need to change to win back the support of the players. Asking us to forgive and forget isn't going to work. Especially with players pinching pennies.

I'm not picking on the BCAPL. The May event was the best I've attended, perhaps the best ever! You also know I hold you and what you've accomplished in my highest regard. But reading the threads on the VNEA and APA events, along with my attendence at the ACS, gives me the feeling the Riv just doesn't care. They have, what they thought, was a captive audience. Why try harder? Only the pain from their loss of bottom line profits will force them to re-think how they treat their patrons. Pool players or not. If I lost half of my profit base, I would work twice as hard to make the other half as happy as possible. Damn the cost. We're talking survival here.

Lyn

 

[Scott Lee]

Exactly, Steve!...and the best pro players can run out (at will) on either! :grin: Now I love a good 9' table (and prefer to play, teach, and do exhibitions on them...given the choice), as much as the next guy...but to say that bar table champions are "kiddie champions" (meaning, I guess, that they cannot play), is...well, just silly!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Bar boxes and 9 footers are two different animals, and each requires some very specific skills to excel.

Steve

 

[Banks]

Exactly, Steve!...and the best pro players can run out (at will) on either! :grin: Now I love a good 9' table (and prefer to play, teach, and do exhibitions on them...given the choice), as much as the next guy...but to say that bar table champions are "kiddie champions" (meaning, I guess, that they cannot play), is...well, just silly!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I'm starting to catch on to 9'ers, but I can be pretty dangerous to an A/Master on a barbox. I think that pretty much speaks for whether or not a barbox is "easy". Pros can run out maybe a few more racks on a barbox, so it isn't like they're just breaking and running from the time they walk in until the time they walk out and for anyone down the food chain it makes even less of a difference. I'm no Pro, but even I know that barbox games are a bit different. People will always make excuses for losing, from the tables to the lighting to the noise to the handicaps. And I enjoy APA, it's the whiners I can't stand. And BCA is fun and all with the better competition, but it's nice to have to push yourself harder against a lower rated player that's ready for the next rating or going 5-3 against a 5 that's playing lights out. I like both leagues for different reasons.

 

[sfleinen]

Be careful with the notion that bar-box play is "easier" than a 9-footer

I'm starting to catch on to 9'ers, but I can be pretty dangerous to an A/Master on a barbox. I think that pretty much speaks for whether or not a barbox is "easy". Pros can run out maybe a few more racks on a barbox, so it isn't like they're just breaking and running from the time they walk in until the time they walk out and for anyone down the food chain it makes even less of a difference. I'm no Pro, but even I know that barbox games are a bit different. People will always make excuses for losing, from the tables to the lighting to the noise to the handicaps. And I enjoy APA, it's the whiners I can't stand. And BCA is fun and all with the better competition, but it's nice to have to push yourself harder against a lower rated player that's ready for the next rating or going 5-3 against a 5 that's playing lights out. I like both leagues for different reasons.

Folks:

Be very, VERY careful with the notion that playing on a bar-box is somehow "easier." Yes, because of the smaller real estate on a bar-box, shots themselves are closer to a pocket, thus leading one to think "closer to a pocket = less distance than a 9-footer = 'easier'" or something like that. However, that same smaller real estate is also an "albatross around the neck" for anyone that likes to let go of their cue ball. This is especially so if coupled with the "non-standard" -- as compared to the object balls themselves -- cue ball inherent on a bar-box. ("Non-standard" = larger, heavier, or magnetic/different-material-consistency than the object balls.) This cue ball reacts very differently than, oh, say, an Aramith Red Circle or Centennial Blue Circle cue ball as found on a 9-footer. This topic is described in great detail in Randi Givens' great work, The 8-Ball Bible, A Guide to Bar-Table Play.

While 9-ball on a bar-box might be considered "easier" than on a 9-footer to some, 8-ball on a bar-box has the distinction of giving a good 9-footer player "fits" when it comes to controlling whitey. While the shots themselves might be "easier" on a bar-box than on a 9-footer, the bar-box more than makes up for that with the "less real estate = more clustering" (having a greater impact on an 8-ball runout with all/most of the 15 balls still on the table in that small space), as well as the unique cue ball that requires special care in controlling. What would normally be an easy run-out on a 9-footer, ends up being "one ball hell" on a bar-box for those not initiated/practiced on a bar-box, with that bar-box cue ball. And a good bar-box player salivates at the prospect of playing a set with someone accustomed to playing on a 9-footer who thinks a bar-box is "easier" -- he/she knows that 9-footer player has a rude awakening coming!

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean

 

[pooltchr]

Exactly! While a 9 footer has about 39 sq ft to work with, the bar box only has about 25 sq ft. Yet the balls take up the same space. Clusters are far more likely, and position play needs to be more precise since there are smaller lanes to move the cue ball through.

Steve