The only way I will ever play 9 ball again...

Is there luck in Pool...Yes.

The better you get at the game...the less lucky you are.

1 - Becuase you miss less so you have less opportunity to get lucky
2 - When you do miss...you miss deeper in the hole so the ball is less likely to go in antother pocket....more likely to hang in the pocket for an easy shot to your opponent.
3 - If your opponent lucks in a kick shot....you did not play a good enough safe....it is your fault...You allowed them to get lucky
4 - Same goes for the break unless it was via a won coin toss.

When you learn how to win when you are not getting lucky and when you are playing below your best game......That is when you know you are a good player. :wink:
 
I'm the luckiest player I know! I'm Greek, and that helps a LOT. One match that sticks in my mind was a few yrs ago I played one of our top Open level players in a weekely non-handicapped tournament. I'm a C player. During this match, I played good, rode the 9 a few times, stole a bead from his side of the scoreboard, and got super lucky on my position. I ended up beating him, and made sure the whole room knew about it.

I love being lucky, and Greek.
 
SUPERSTAR said:
9ball = JUNK.

Anyone who thinks luck equals out in pool, has no idea what they are talking about.
Rolls do NOT even out.
Some people are lucky, and some people are not, and this is CONSISTENT across the years.

Luck evens out = JOKE.
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I agree 100%, some people are craphouse lucky all their lives and others couldn't get a roll if they lived in a bakery.
 
SUPERSTAR said:
Half and half. Not polarized to one extreme or the other when it comes to me shooting and producing my own rolls. But that's not the luck i am talking about.

What i am talking about is when i am sitting down and approach the table for my shot and am being punished for a miss by my opponent, or when a shot gone wrong for my opponent results in them winning the game instantaneously, or allowing them to continue shooting so that they can execute something properly.
i.e. I AM NOT SHOOTING WHEN THE LUCK HAPPENS.
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When an opponent misses a shot and hooks you, do you think you got screwed out of an opportunity to capitalize on your opponent's mistake or did he get a lucky roll?
 
deebee53 said:
The term luck needs to be defined and agreed upon before any meaningful arguments can be made for either side. Subjective words have been thrown all around this argument with the expectation that they are objective enough to make a point.

Case in point:

A lot of players would like to reduce "luck" by changing the rules. Some want to reduce it the point where the "best" player should always win. Now we have a real problem if the "best" player doesn't win. The "lesser" player must have gotten "lucky." Here comes that creepy, ambiguous luck sneaking back into our fantastic, luck-free game again. Tricky devil.

The losing player things that the other guy got "lucky" or that he got some "unlucky" breaks. The winning player thinks that he was the "best" player because he won the game that the "best" player should always win. Now we have two opposing views of the match, so who is wrong? Both have an opinion of what happened based upon a subjective interpretation of an event that is skewed by their initial desires about the outcome. Neither have posted a valid argument, so neither can be right.


One argument I will make is that 9 Ball's popularity is routed heavily in the variation of the game (or "luck" if you will). It's similar to poker in that regard. It happens all the time in poker where a player has a hand that wins 95% of the time and loses on the river. It adds a certain amount of excitement to the game because even though someone is supposed to win doesn't mean they do. It's one of the things that keeps crappy poker players and average pool players like me interested in the game.

9 Ball seems to be decent at mixing positive shooter variation (like slop) with skill. Do I like when someone slops in the 9 on me? No. But I have never given a game back because a ball dropped on a double bank either.
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Nice post. It's obvious people here have different definitions for luck. Some more valid than others.

Theoretically speaking every event has a propability of happening. We don't know the %'s of everything but they are there.

A single coinflip is 50%/50%. If I flip heads two in a row I'm a bit lucky. If I flip heads a hundred times I'm very lucky (the coin should be inspected).

As far as I'm concerned luck is only dodging some propabilities. Nobody can flip infinate heads in a row except in theory. Nobody can make a shot all the time they are 10 to 1 underdog to make. It's not luck in pool or luck in coinflipping, it's just luck. And nobody is lucky all the time. People are just more inclined to notice their opponents luck and not their own.

Furthermore luck can present itself in very subtle ways and is often hard to spot:

Person A gains 1% of luck 50 times during a period of time or person B gains 50% of luck 1 time during that same period.

I'm pretty sure if we place this example on a pool table Person A feels he got unlucky and didn't even notice his own luck.


The other way of viewing luck is that it's some kind of a superpower that touches upon certain people. A theory presented in this thread suggests (please correct me if I'm wrong) that this superpower touches some people only when they are playing pool. I know people have all kinds of superstitions but for me these things are just too complicated to understand.
 
Nine ball is the perfect game for what it is and nothing should change. It's great for action and lesser players that know they can't win with 100% skill WILL STILL GAMBLE in nine ball only.

I'm sure there are tons of great poker players that HATED the fact that such a lucky game like Texas holdem became THE game when there are much more skillful poker games out there. Little did they know how much more money they won because so many suckers gave them their money in hopes to get lucky.

Leave nine ball alone so what little action that is out there will keep paying off.

This is why you don't CHANGE nine ball you just play a different game if you don't want the easy money.
 
So what your saying is,you will never play 9ball again.

I see the game as a pratice game only.I do play in 9ball tourneys but I am hoping they will all become 10Ball eventualy.If you really twist my arm I will gamble 9Ball but I think 1p is the best for matching up.I still think 9ball is a viable ation game but only in very long sets or ahead sets.
 
JoeyA said:
When an opponent misses a shot and hooks you, do you think you got screwed out of an opportunity to capitalize on your opponent's mistake or did he get a lucky roll?
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Exactly! Superstar is straight up fooling himself. SH!T HAPPENS! If you are the better player, keep playing the lucky player... you will BUST HIM!
 
JoeyA said:
When an opponent misses a shot and hooks you, do you think you got screwed out of an opportunity to capitalize on your opponent's mistake or did he get a lucky roll?
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Actually, i am glad to be at the table, PERIOD.
Good things can happen when you are at the table shooting and they are sitting down.

But if the person misses the shot and really hooks me so that i am kicking, instead of me having a shot, or if not a shot, just being able to see an edge of the ball so that i might play some defense by at least shooting directly at the ball, the opportunity to capitalize on that opportunity is NOT the same as if they missed and left me straight in.
Some misses are sellouts, and some misses are better then if the person had played a jam up safety.

But all misses that leave opponents hooked are considered lucky rolls.
I consider that getting rewarded for an error, and that just shouldn't be a part of the game.

You know as well as i do that there are some situations where people miss where you would LOVE to give the shot back to them because the %s for gaining an advantage from kicking in that position are basically nil.
 
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cleary said:
Exactly! Superstar is straight up fooling himself. SH!T HAPPENS! If you are the better player, keep playing the lucky player... you will BUST HIM!
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I believe you have touched on something that leads me to believe that we are not talking about the same thing.

I am not talking about winning and losing, despite having mentioned situations where i have lost because of luck.

I am not talking about good players outrunning the luck and beating bad players.

I am not talking about opportunities for luck happening based on opportunities at the table, or lack thereof.

I am talking about luck as a PART OF THE GAME.
All that other stuff is not what i am talking about.

There are crappy and mid level players who get lucky all the time.
It still doesn't mean they are going to run out when they finally get back BIH.

And there are strong players who get lucky, where one roll can provide them with the opportunity to define a match.

Skill level vs luck is not at the core of my argument.

Luck being an inherent part of the game of 9ball, IS.
 
SUPERSTAR said:
Luck being an inherent part of the game of 9ball, IS.
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Agreed... but there is luck involved in every pool game, some more than others.

The reason 9ball allows lucky shots is because to give a weaker player a chance. If I'm matching up with a weaker player, they are going to want any advantage they can get.

Also, it can give a much better player an advantage. You can play two way shots and shoot at the money. I played a guy once, who I thought couldn't have been a B player. He kept getting lucky on the 9ball. Turns out, he wasn't getting lucky and he wasn't a B player.
 
cleary said:
Agreed... but there is luck involved in every pool game, some more than others.

The reason 9ball allows lucky shots is because to give a weaker player a chance. If I'm matching up with a weaker player, they are going to want any advantage they can get.

Also, it can give a much better player an advantage. You can play two way shots and shoot at the money. I played a guy once, who I thought couldn't have been a B player. He kept getting lucky on the 9ball. Turns out, he wasn't getting lucky and he wasn't a B player.
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Compensation in 9 ball can be done other ways instead of letting luck being the factor.

I have heard several people discuss the 2-way-shot phenomena saying that by implementing rules to eliminate luck, that you will eliminate the two way shot.
That doesn't have to happen.

In the same way that some tournaments or tours have implemented restrictions on certain shots. (example would be you can only use the jump cue twice per match)
You could also have a specific number of 2-ways allowed as well.
Say 1 or 2 per match. You just have to call them so that they couldn't be given back to you.

That way, it would still be an exercise in skill that people could use to their advantage.
 
SUPERSTAR said:
Compensation in 9 ball can be done other ways instead of letting luck being the factor.

I have heard several people discuss the 2-way-shot phenomena saying that by implementing rules to eliminate luck, that you will eliminate the two way shot.
That doesn't have to happen.

In the same way that some tournaments or tours have implemented restrictions on certain shots. (example would be you can only use the jump cue twice per match)
You could also have a specific number of 2-ways allowed as well.
Say 1 or 2 per match. You just have to call them so that they couldn't be given back to you.

That way, it would still be an exercise in skill that people could use to their advantage.
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It started as a hustlers game dude. It goes both ways, just the way I said it. It favors the better player while making the weaker player think he's got a chance. I don't know what else to tell ya!
 
SUPERSTAR said:
Compensation in 9 ball can be done other ways instead of letting luck being the factor.

I have heard several people discuss the 2-way-shot phenomena saying that by implementing rules to eliminate luck, that you will eliminate the two way shot.
That doesn't have to happen.

In the same way that some tournaments or tours have implemented restrictions on certain shots. (example would be you can only use the jump cue twice per match)
You could also have a specific number of 2-ways allowed as well.
Say 1 or 2 per match. You just have to call them so that they couldn't be given back to you.

That way, it would still be an exercise in skill that people could use to their advantage.
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Man I understand you frustration...but you simply cannot make the game so hard for lesser players to have a chance that they don't wanna play anymore. I mean, who wants to get run over all the time with NO CHANCE at all of winning? If that were the case we would all play 14.1 and One Pocket. Either player may get lucky, true. But only one player is BETTER. And most of the time they (the better player) are gonna win. I hate bar boxes because I can lose to a lesser skilled player some of the time, but I don't let it bother me as much because that's just the game. The better player is not going to win EVERY GAME...I know a guy that is an Open caliber player thinks he should win EVERY GAME because he is a better than all of us. Even though he wins 95% of the games, that other five percent just kills him. But what you guys don't understand is that the other 5% is all some of us even play for...sometimes the little guys deserve to win, we can't all be champions. Gimmie a break....
 
I think with all the improvements in what we play with and how we are now able to approach the game, that it is time to change the game to make it even more challenging. Take golf for example, holes are continuing to get longer as new and better materials are allowing players to hit balls farther. So why not adjust the games of pool to continue to push us as players towards the perfection that we truely seek. Maybe it's time to go to full rack rotaion (not the pinoy rotation).

Kai
 
cleary said:
It started as a hustlers game dude.
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LOL.

9Ball the way it is played today, is NOT the way the game originally started out.

Two completely different worlds.

Before it was 2foul ball in hand.
Under those rules, the better player won a higher % of the time, even in closely contested matches.

When they went to Texas Express, they allowed for anyone to beat anyone on any given day.

You might want to rethink your position before you start dispensing with the history lessons.
 
SUPERSTAR said:
LOL.

9Ball the way it is played today, is NOT the way the game originally started out.

Two completely different worlds.

Before it was 2foul ball in hand.
Under those rules, the better player won a higher % of the time, even in closely contested matches.

When they went to Texas Express, they allowed for anyone to beat anyone on any given day.
You might want to rethink your position before you start dispensing with the history lessons.
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If that's true...why do we see the same players winning the same tournaments over and over? I would be willing to bet, that the same 10 players win the majority of the prize money in Major tournaments.
 
Practice...

SUPERSTAR said:
Tell them to practice more so that they get better
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Man, I agree with you 100% on the practice..(see my Avatar/Signature) And I wish people would practice more...but that isn't going to happen. Instead of practicing they just elect to play on the smaller table to increase their chances...(but thats another discussion:angry:)
 
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