The REAL problem with pool

It's a catch 22. A pool room has a very high % fixed cost. The variable cost is negligible by comparison. Very similar to a golf course. Volume is everything. You make money off of " monied" people. Problem is, the per square foot cost of floor space in and around higher tier demographics is substantially higher. The more well to do Customers you want to attract aren't going to the seedier areas to play pool. The pool halls can't get a high enough pool fee to justify locating in the nicer areas. Bottom line, I think it will become increasingly more difficult for a pool only/primarily business to survive.

Out of that 21 million pool playing number, what % are primarily league players? I'll bet it is 75% or higher. Assuming that is true, the answer is rather obvious, I.e., you have to figure out how to attract and profit from the leagues. Unfortunately, that still leaves the challenge of how to create revenue from 10 am to 7 pm.

I think one thing that needs to happen is for the facility to be vertical to decrease the per sq foot cost. Perhaps the 2nd story is primarily the more hard core pool where the first story may have a smaller number of bar boxes. That facility needs to be located in a reasonably nice, safe location near enough to the higher end demographic so the money will find it easy to go there. With that said, it must offer alcohol, good quality "bar food" and excellent service. The owner has to be creative. How about afternoon retiree leagues? How about a Monday afternoon Women's league?

My experience in business is if you offer a good product with great service in a decent, accessible, safe location, you will prosper. To be absolutely blunt, most pool rooms I've seen don't come across as being very friendly to your casual pool player. They're generally located in areas I wouldn't be in for any other reason. The service generally sucks, it would be better if it could be self serve. Here's another way to view it. If that pool hall were a restaurant, in the same location, with the same quality level of food and service, it would be out of business inside of a month. So why should it expect to survive as a pool hall?

I think you bring up some great points. The only pool halls I've been in that pack a crowd, focus on food, liquor and other forms of ENTERTAINMENT. They realize they're competing with Entertainment choices/time that potencial customers have.

Unfortunately the entertainment houses that also have a quantity of pool tables can be loud and distracting to serious players. But I don't think the serious players attract more clientele. Not saying they repel them either. The distraction doesn't have to be the case.

One joint I remember that had to close because of rent was Shakesperes in Denver. A wonderful clean upscale place with tons of pool tables, a snooker table and 4 3cushion. They also had a full bar and restaurant with a full time real chef, plus a Piano Bar. Jerry Karsh really did it right and in the right location. He took a stab at doing it again but in the end decided he really didn't want to start all over again at his age.

Those that were never there can imagine the expense of this place. 25 -30 European tables, rent, supplies......... He was successful while it lasted and found the means to fund it in the beginning. I believe his vision was to compete with the Denver Athletic Club.
 
Just go to Q-Masters in Va. Beach to see how a poolroom should be.

Man you don't gotta sell me on Q masters, I was in love when my buddy showed me a photo
of a sign in the place, it was like bright yellow and 3 feet tall and said NO SITTING ON TABLES.
I love it when a place isn't shy about protecting the tables.

There's a new room in Decatur, Al called Six Pockets...This is the nicest room I have been to in a long time, and two days a week, all the pool you want to play for 5.00.

I'd be all over that joint. Maybe I'll have some excuse to go to Alabama someday.

Eddie's trick? *Ask* your patrons what they like, listen, and implement it. Customers love it when they have input into a business, the proprietor listens to them, and the business becomes "localized" to what they like.

This is extremely rare. It seems to me most business owners just have a set idea in their head of what's
best and what's not and then mold the room to fit that. Sometimes they nail it and other times
they're off the mark. I can count on one finger the number of pool rooms that have ever asked me
for input as far as tables, music, etc.
 
Well said Neil...

"Leagues have taught people that it is bad to gamble. They have put a false notion in all their heads. They have also taught people to not practice. If they do, their handicap will go up, and then they have to find a new team. They have zero reward for improvement, actually get penalized for improvement.

To top it off, pool is a singular game, always has been. That is the real beauty of the game. It's just you and what you can do. It forces a mindset of improvement upon you that correlates to all aspects of life."

Reminds me of another quote...
"Pool excellence is not about excellent pool....it's about becomin' somethin' "...
- E.F. (1986)
 
I agree with what Neil said in that pool rooms need to see themselves as businesses first. Otherwise, they'll just up and fold and 'pool' will be to blame for them. The days of the pool room library atmosphere is all but gone.. time to move forward towards the Phillipine-style game. Action, noise and excitement.

Around here, the places that cater to leagues are pretty busy. Sure, there are some people that don't tip or don't tip well, but there are still quite a few people buying food and drinks. Then you take the people that do tip and some that do tip well and overall it's a good thing for people, the business and the employees.

If pool were dying, diamond barboxes wouldn't be growing in popularity around here. There have been a couple of rooms that have gone under, but you could just as easily point to the clientelle that they catered to.

It isn't that leagues encourage not gambling, because gamblers will find a way. I think it's that there looks to be more people and their mouths start getting big when playing, so to outsiders it looks like they're game, but in reality they're just caught up in the league and talking trash.

As for stuff like, "They have zero reward for improvement, actually get penalized for improvement." The same could be said for certain jobs I've had.
 
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Karaoke and Pool

I play at Fast Eddie's, Springfield Va right off the Capitol Beltway. For the last at ten years, they have had $5 pool for all night after 5 PM and half price pizza on Sunday. A steady loyal pool following developed and the 13 tables would usually be in use most of the night. The bar would sometimes be busy and at times slow.

Well, the management came up with a brilliant idea to attract more business Sunday night - Karaoke. Yes, I said it karaoke and the mentally challenging game of pocket billiards togehter. Do you know what it's like to be down on a serious shot and hear a drunk miss the note by a zip code. Well, that loyal Sunday pool crowd has slowly dwindled away.

However, management has the solution. When Sunday night NFL starts there will be the NFL, karaoke and $5 pool. I can't wait for this.
 
I just want to thank everyone who has and who still are participating in this forum. Your ideas will be collected, organized and distributed.
 
I play at Fast Eddie's, Springfield Va right off the Capitol Beltway. For the last at ten years, they have had $5 pool for all night after 5 PM and half price pizza on Sunday. A steady loyal pool following developed and the 13 tables would usually be in use most of the night. The bar would sometimes be busy and at times slow.

Well, the management came up with a brilliant idea to attract more business Sunday night - Karaoke. Yes, I said it karaoke and the mentally challenging game of pocket billiards togehter. Do you know what it's like to be down on a serious shot and hear a drunk miss the note by a zip code. Well, that loyal Sunday pool crowd has slowly dwindled away.

However, management has the solution. When Sunday night NFL starts there will be the NFL, karaoke and $5 pool. I can't wait for this.

I saw a very good room in Florida put themselves out of business by adding a dance floor, karaoke and having loud rock bands to entertain their patrons. Once that started I believe they only lasted 1 or 2 more years before they closed for good.
 
I saw a very good room in Florida put themselves out of business by adding a dance floor, karaoke and having loud rock bands to entertain their patrons. Once that started I believe they only lasted 1 or 2 more years before they closed for good.

That usually happens as a last ditch effort when they realize their sinking
It's a tough business it takes many things to be right to keep the doors open pool tables alone just does not get it done very often those days are long gone


1
 
They have zero reward for improvement, actually get penalized for improvement.

"Leagues have taught people that it is bad to gamble. They have put a false notion in all their heads. They have also taught people to not practice. If they do, their handicap will go up, and then they have to find a new team. They have zero reward for improvement, actually get penalized for improvement.

To top it off, pool is a singular game, always has been. That is the real beauty of the game. It's just you and what you can do. It forces a mindset of improvement upon you that correlates to all aspects of life."

Reminds me of another quote...
"Pool excellence is not about excellent pool....it's about becomin' somethin' "...
- E.F. (1986)

Yes, this bothers me too. How can the scenario be set up that discourages people from getting better? There's a league player in Dallas that recently told me there's those that strongly discourages my DVD's because they don't want "their" players to get any better. wtf? :confused:
 
Very good post.

Yes, this bothers me too. How can the scenario be set up that discourages people from getting better? There's a league player in Dallas that recently told me there's those that strongly discourages my DVD's because they don't want "their" players to get any better. wtf? :confused:


promoting poor play is just plane stupid. granted some people work hard and never play good, while others seem to get good with some effort. Its just plane dumb to discourage people from practicing. I want to be good at what ever I do, pool, guns, backgammon, tiddly winks or Yahtzee-if i'm going to pursue it, i want to do it well.
 
I think the key to making pool up there again is to make pool cool again.
Here in China the average age of pool players in pool halls are 18 - 40 so it's significantly younger than that of U.S. So the key i'd say is finding what's cool and essential for this group of people.

Pool halls here in China are generally well renovated have decently nice environment. Infact most of the newer and profitable pool halls are all very very well decorated and i think that's why younger people visit these halls cos it's cool and ofcourse comfortable.

Many of the pool halls i've seen in the states are pretty dated and ermm...not very inviting to younger people to hang out. With that there's just no way to generate enough interest amongst the young and new generation so the existing patrons are still the same group that play pool 20years ago.

I've been to Amsterdam Billiards in NYC and it's one of my favourite pool halls, it's also one of the coolest pool halls around where it feels loungey and somewhat like a semi-club. The average age of players there is also significantly younger than other pool halls i've seen around the states and it's also one of the most expensive but why are they still so profitable? It's the cool factor.

I think if you have a pool room that young hot chicks wouldn't mind going to play some with their girlfriends than your room has the cool factor. Let's face it, they're the picky one when it comes to environment and if they're there the sausages just pile up too.
 
I think the key to making pool up there again is to make pool cool again.
Here in China the average age of pool players in pool halls are 18 - 40 so it's significantly younger than that of U.S. So the key i'd say is finding what's cool and essential for this group of people.
.



and that's what the big announcement is going to be all about....so goes the rumor
 
A pool hall is primarily a buisness, so success of it and success of the sport have always been two different things. A combination of the two is optimal but not necessary.
A lot of good ideas were presented here about pool hall operation, nothing needs to be added on top of those.
Pool is played around the globe, having enormous potential.
The real problem is the lack of a professional league, something the young players will be motivated to get into.
If this is "fixed", young people will be motivated again more, in the right way..
 
When I was a Room Owner it was obvious that you could not just open the door and people would beat a path to come through it. With stacks of pre opening publicity we had 600 paid up members at $40 a shot.and we had to hold three Opening Nights to satisfy demand.

Around 180 of these were females, most of whom had joined on their own initiative. As stated elsewhere, they were the key to success.

It is hard to attract ladies to a male orientated environment but establish a core of pretty women and it becomes a No Brainer to bring the guys in.

I designed the whole place - a fully stocked bar that could hold 150 peoople and often did. There was a 16 seater restaurant serving everything from T Bone to Toast. It was intentionally small to encourage reservations and six night a week most of the diners were out to mark a special occasion. We had two temperamental chefs working a shift pattern but that made life exciting.

There were 14 full size tables maintained to a professional standard. Two of these were in a Private Room which could be hired by companies and groups, complete with catering.
Table 14 was in a Private Suite in which 90 seated people could watch the action.

We had carpet on the floor which was monogrammed at a time when most of the bars that surrounded us were of the spit and sawdust genre.

We were in a pretty rough location but the locals responded well. The few exceptions were treated to a home visit from me and had their card marked. The Room was so popular that nobody wanted to get a LIFETIME ban (the only level we used).
On the competitive side, we employed a House Pro, earning a good salary plus a prestige car and all tournament expenses.

This was a superb investment and helped us develop junior and ladies coaching sessions.

We also had singles leagues on Tuesday and Thursday, Business Leagues on Mondays and KO events on Wednesday
evenings. Once a month we had Open Tournaments. Ladies participated in all these events.

Go one floor down and we had a fast food cafe and an a la carte restaurant sharing a kitchen. These extensively showed what was happening upstairs.

Our next door neighbor was a bookmakers shop and we had the newly launched Text TV service which allowed punters to get an 'illegal' bet on their chosen 'donkey'.

With in bar sports championship such as darts, dominoes, cribbage, chess, shut the box, spoof, woodlice racing (true - they all had a little dot of paint on their backs) life was never dull.


So the moral of the story is - It's an easy life but you have got to work at it.
 
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Management has to be hands-on. They can't just open their doors and then come back later to pick up the cash. They have to put themselves in the mix with their customers and find out what works and what isn't working.

Decent fast food helps as well. I think a full blown restaurant and all the headaches that go with it isn't necessary.

You got it! A business must be WATCHED. Otherwise it all goes out the back door.
 
OK, so let's go through some stats. According to the annual Sporting Goods Association Player Participation poll the number of pool players in America is decreasing by an annual rate of about 10%. Their survey says that in 2005 about 39 million Americans classed themselves as pool players. In 2012 that number dropped all the way down to 21 million.

Are there any corollaries? Oh, yes. That 10% drop is about what we lose in poolrooms each year. People who do not have a place to play pool cannot be pool players.

Many pool players are middle aged or above. Some of us remember paying 10 cents a rack to play pool and 25 cents for each beer. So $6 per stick per hour and $4 per beer seems a bit steep. But it is in line with inflation and the fact is that those 10 cent poolrooms were profitable and the ones today are struggling. (At the same time a golf green fee back then was $2 and nobody complains today when they pay $80 or more.)

So the basic problem is keeping poolrooms alive. If they all die the game dies with them.

Room owners I talk to say they need to generate a little bit of profit from many different areas to stay open. A bit from the pool tables, a bit from the jukebox, a bit from the kitchen, a bit from the video games, a bit from the bar and a bit from the leagues.

But some rooms have hit on ways to do much better than the average. Reed Pierce set his room apart with a great lunch menu. It is so good that he had to hire folks to do delivery of all the take-out orders he began getting.

Phil Wyndham (I think I butchered that spelling) of the Chattanooga Billiard Club opened a cigar and brandy section.

So those who think creatively are doing pretty well with their rooms.

If you know of other formulas that work for rooms, tell us about them. We really do need to breathe some life into the foundation of pool, the poolroom.

(Another problem is that action no longer brings spectators to poolrooms in large numbers. Now that the average American lives 2 hours or less away from a casino the casinos have captured the action that was once the property of the corner poolroom.)



The problem with pool is simply "Technology" & "Casino's" and everything along those lines.

There is to much for the younger generation to do with their time these days besides playing pool, playing video games or texting on the phone seems to be the thing for them now, and the older generation spend alot of their spare time in casino's , so the poolroom's suffer.

I know when the casino's came in at Shreveport, LA. the pool action, bars, nightclubs in Texarkana,AR. just 70 miles away droped by 50% overnight!

Pool will never be like it was back in the day, say just as far back as the 40's 50's 60's & 70's pool halls were the gathering place for all the local gossip and maybe pick up a few bucks on the tables.

I wonder what the per capita would have been for people playing pool back then was? real high I would guess.

Back in the hay days of pool, hundreds if not thousands of people would gather to watch a high profile match between two champions.

Just as far back as the mid 70's in my locale home town a $5.00 a game of 9-Ball would get 20 to 30 sweaters real quick, not that way anymore, I doubt a hundred a rack would get 10-15 sweaters now., thats a crying shame, just no interest from the younger generation anymore.

Like you say, you have to have a setup like Reed Pierce now days to have a go at it and make any money in the pool world.

Oh well , pool will never completly die, it will just never thrive as it once did.


David Harcrow
 
I feel a big problem is not getting the youth participating enough. If room owners just took a Saturday or Sunday during the slow day hours and have free pool for kids under 16 we could see some new money. All other sports encourage youth to play them and we know few will become professional athletes but they usually become life long fans and spend thousands of dollars in their lifetime on merchandise and other things.

Now this is a good idea. The parents can either drop the kids off and know they will be in a safe enviornment or stay and play themselves. Plus the kids will soon want thier own sticks and whatnot so youre creating a little more demand, hell the place can even sell some cheap cues themselves and make up a little themselves.

Maybe word starts to spread and more and more parents drop kids off there and its during the slow time as you said, what do the rooms got to lose ? They will definetly make some on soda sales and chips and whatever snacks they got to push, so its not a total loss.

I am going to mention this to the owner where i play and see what they think.
 
Post

It's all about the marketing behind it...look at the APA' they have people playing pool that would never of played pool in a league, now playing 2-3 nights a week,15 years ago these apa players would not of existed! Period!
So where did they come from? It's was all well marketed and works darn well..

There is profit from it... So if a profit holder waters the grass it will grow.

If it a win-win situation you can't go wrong' ( case and point ) the AZ gold member number is climbing because of the good chance of getting more value in return for the buck.
need marketing to get sponsorship, and vice versa, as well as needing foundation to have a pro tour but with no players there is no tour or foundation..

Here's one for you- think about how the gas saver cards work that are now available at to save so much a gallon on gas when selected items are purchased at grocery stores.
Again the consumer can physically see the reward/ win-win scenario but you can bet the store owner made out better than the consumer but what does the customer care? He got what he paid for and got a kick back'

Only my opinions
Just my two cents, I'll throw in a nickel and you can keep the change.

Rob.M
 
I'm not sure about now, but I know a bit about then. When pool was a nickel a game the money that kept the doors open came from the poker game in the basement.

Dave Nelson
 
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