The True Record Hi Run

true record high run

Lou,

Reyes has always played a flashy spectacular style.
I think 14.1 has never been a game he enjoyed, but when he decided to play he was having fun with it.

However,watch Orcollo play 14.1 and tell me what trouble he runs into.
If he was to put in as many hours as Mosconi put into the game, I personally think Mosconi woulda had no chance whatsoever to beat him. And in my opinion, there are a few more players of today that I feel could play as well as Mosconi did.

To me the players of today are just better players, period
 
Lou,

Reyes has always played a flashy spectacular style.
I think 14.1 has never been a game he enjoyed, but when he decided to play he was having fun with it.

However,watch Orcollo play 14.1 and tell me what trouble he runs into.
If he was to put in as many hours as Mosconi put into the game, I personally think Mosconi woulda had no chance whatsoever to beat him. And in my opinion, there are a few more players of today that I feel could play as well as Mosconi did.

To me the players of today are just better players, period


Marc, Efren doesn't know 14.1, that's why he needs to shoot 1pocket banks to keep his runs going. Still, he is probably the greatest all-around pool player ever. And Orcollo is a fine player, no doubt, but once again seems to struggle a bit because he doesn't have a lifetime of experience playing 14.1.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, makes the world go round and all that. But I'm going to take a stab in the dark and guess you never saw Mosconi play because I believe most of folks that saw him play, and have seen the current crop of players, would say Mosconi was still the greatest straight pool player of all time.

Lou Figueroa
 
Marc, Efren doesn't know 14.1, that's why he needs to shoot 1pocket banks to keep his runs going. Still, he is probably the greatest all-around pool player ever. And Orcollo is a fine player, no doubt, but once again seems to struggle a bit because he doesn't have a lifetime of experience playing 14.1.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, makes the world go round and all that. But I'm going to take a stab in the dark and guess you never saw Mosconi play because I believe most of folks that saw him play, and have seen the current crop of players, would say Mosconi was still the greatest straight pool player of all time.

Lou Figueroa

I agree 100% Willy seemed to run 200 or more balls never getting out of line .Always seemed to have the perfect break shot on the left side of the rack.I watched Mike Sigel run 200 or more but always had to make tough shots. Sigel was the best shot maker of all time IMO
 
I agree 100% Willy seemed to run 200 or more balls never getting out of line .Always seemed to have the perfect break shot on the left side of the rack.I watched Mike Sigel run 200 or more but always had to make tough shots. Sigel was the best shot maker of all time IMO

IMHO If Mosconi spent his peek years on todays equipment, the run might be 1000. Also I think Mosconi, Crane, Caras, Lassiter, Balsis would devastate the top 5 of todays players in straight pool. However that is the fun in comparing players of different era's, Unitas vs. Marino vs Manning, Ruth vs Aaron vs name your favorite juicer here...

JV
 
Marc, Efren doesn't know 14.1, that's why he needs to shoot 1pocket banks to keep his runs going. Still, he is probably the greatest all-around pool player ever. And Orcollo is a fine player, no doubt, but once again seems to struggle a bit because he doesn't have a lifetime of experience playing 14.1.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, makes the world go round and all that. But I'm going to take a stab in the dark and guess you never saw Mosconi play because I believe most of folks that saw him play, and have seen the current crop of players, would say Mosconi was still the greatest straight pool player of all time.

Lou Figueroa

"Everyone is entitled to their opinion, makes the world go round and all that. But I'm going to take a stab in the dark and guess you never saw Mosconi play"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You take a stab - I'll bet my house, my car, my cue and lunch he never saw Willie play.

He also seems oblivious to the fact that in Willie's prime, for all
intents and purposes, only Americans played pool. The Canadian Snooker
legend, George Chenier did hold the record for a 150 in the World Championship
Tournament for many years. But virtually all the world except us played
Carom Billiards or Snooker.

He also has apparently been influenced by the legions of Mosconi knockers that
have discredited Willie for years. It is somewhat understandable.

Willie had total disdain for pool hustlers - and was quick to voice his opinion. Personally,
I think he was more than a bit unrealistic in his attitude toward the game and its players.

Dale
 
"Everyone is entitled to their opinion, makes the world go round and all that. But I'm going to take a stab in the dark and guess you never saw Mosconi play"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You take a stab - I'll bet my house, my car, my cue and lunch he never saw Willie play.

He also seems oblivious to the fact that in Willie's prime, for all
intents and purposes, only Americans played pool. The Canadian Snooker
legend, George Chenier did hold the record for a 150 in the World Championship
Tournament for many years. But virtually all the world except us played
Carom Billiards or Snooker.

He also has apparently been influenced by the legions of Mosconi knockers that
have discredited Willie for years. It is somewhat understandable.



Willie had total disdain for pool hustlers - and was quick to voice his opinion. Personally,
I think he was more than a bit unrealistic in his attitude toward the game and its players.

Dale

He had no problem with guys playing for money ,, his problem was how they would hide there game their name and so on to get a bet ,, and oh by the way most people see it his way


1
 
I think that high run is the worst thing that ever happened to Mosconi's legacy. It is all people seem to ever talk about or remember.

The thing that stands out to me about Mosconi is a 15 year run where he was pretty much unbeatable and was the world champion for almost the entire period. There were great players in that era like Crane, Ponzi, Caras, and more and they simply had no chance.

There has been no one like Mosconi since. Take Earl's natural talent, throw in SVB's work ethic, and top it off with the tenacity and focus of a guy like Bustamante or Ralf Souquet, that was Mosconi. He was the entire package. No one since him has dominated the sport like he did. SVB seems to win more then his share these days but he is not even close. Mosconi was a savant at the game of pool and had ALL of the pieces within him to truly dominate the sport.
 
But I'm going to take a stab in the dark and guess you never saw Mosconi play because I believe most of folks that saw him play, and have seen the current crop of players, would say Mosconi was still the greatest straight pool player of all time.

There is a built in bias for going with what you know. People that know the current crop of players, but never saw Mosconi play, will tend to be biased to believe that somebody (or more) from today is better than Mosconi. It is the reason that often times people feel the pro that lives in their area who they have been exposed to the most is the best (Larry Nevel fans as one example, but around Atlanta they tend to think it is Archer, etc, etc). It is the reason why a cue maker's cues are far more popular around where that cue maker lives. Aside from availability, a disproportionate number of local people actually feel that that cue maker makes the best cues available anywhere.

On the flip side though, people are also biased to that which they experienced in their youth. For whatever reason it is human nature to feel that things from their youth (teens and 20's usually but could be any time in the first half or two thirds or so of your life for those that are "older") were better than they are now. You know, the "back in the day" thing. People tend to think everything was better back in the day, the music, the tools, the machinery, the cars, the pool players, etc. People that are in their younger years today will be saying 46 years from now in the year 2060 that Shane Van Boening was the best of all time even if there are several new players in the year 2060 that are twice as good.

The fact is that both sides are equally biased and one side can't use the other side's bias as an argument against them when their side has a bias just as big. What makes sense is to look at everything else where there is objective rather than subjective measurements to see if people are better at it now than they were 60 years ago. Take any other sport or endeavor, and I mean any (even the ones were equipment has no bearing), and people are better at it today than they were 60 years ago 99.9+% of the time (at the top and in depth of field both). Logic tells us that pool players aren't an exception and it holds true here as well, regardless of what our subjective opinion tainted by bias might tell us.

On a side note, another thing I often see that skews people's opinion about someone is how much they dominated in their time. This obviously has zero to do with their skill level (only their skill level as compared to everyone else's at the time), but when someone really dominated an era in something, people's opinions about that person's actual skill level often get irrationally elevated. Using Mosconi as an example, he absolutely dominated during his time which was also for an extended period of time. Nobody today has even come close to that kind of domination. As a result, many people will tend to attribute more skill to Mosconi than he really had. Even if the top 50 players of today all had more skill, some would never be able to see it because none of them are dominating like Mosconi did and that has skewed/biased their opinion of Mosconi's skill. Skill and how much you dominated are completely separate when comparing eras but not everybody can keep them separate on a subconscious level.
 
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How important is Mosconi`s high run today?, so much has changed from back then, cloth, tables, balls, rails, pocket size etc.
There is active players today with records over 400 balls, that seems much more relevant.

If it's so easy, why hasn't the record been broken? It seems like those that would discount the past champions ability are making excuses why their favorite modern players can't break the record. If it's so easy, let them break it on video for the world to see.

No one paid Mosconi a million to set the record. The incentive should be the record itself. It's easy enough to find a 4x8 table with 5 inch pockets and slow cloth. If it's so easy, let them set up a video camera, break the record and have the video verified that nothing has been cut out / edited.

I won't hold my breath waiting.
 
The Best of Apples & Oranges

This is an interesting discussion of Apples & Oranges that will never be settled. Each generation believes "Their" slice of history that began with their birth is the best. Weather it's music ( Elvis, Led Zeppelin or Pantera) or cars ( '57 Chevy, '70 Hemi Cuda or today's imports) all good all different. It's impossible to speculate due to the advances in today's cues, tips etc. to yesterday's equipment. The old cloth was very good under the right conditions, but there wasn't a lot of AC so it soaked up moisture like a sponge & then played like a wet sheep. The demise of 14.1 (The Game of Champions" ) happened due to television. Games could last for hours & didn't fit the time slots so fast games (9 Ball & 8 ball, trick shots) were better suited. They were also very simple to understand & didn't require the commitment to learn all the rules. Not many players today understand all the complexities of the game. Was Mosconi great- you bet! Do today's players have skills- without a doubt. Trying to determine the best is futile, too many variables, but any discussion should include other players that have all ready left their mark in history. Such as Ray Martin. One of only seven players in the last century to win the 14.1 championship 3 times or more. He & Jerome Keogh ( The originator of the game) were the first two inductees into the 14.1 Hall of Fame. There is more to the game than just the raw numbers people look at superficially. I'd be first in line to purchase tickets to see how the "Greats" match up!
 
There is a built in bias for going with what you know. People that know the current crop of players, but never saw Mosconi play, will tend to be biased to believe that somebody (or more) from today is better than Mosconi. It is the reason that often times people feel the pro that lives in their area who they have been exposed to the most is the best (Larry Nevel fans as one example, but around Atlanta they tend to think it is Archer, etc, etc).

That is extremely well said and a very good analogy of why people think the players of today are better then the players of the past.

I am sure the pool fans in Greece thought that Nick E was going to beat SVB in his own pool room on his own pool table in front of his own fans. Then reality hit... Luckily for the players of the modern era they don't have to deal with Mosconi, they would not like it any more then Mosconi's peers did.
 
If it's so easy, why hasn't the record been broken? It seems like those that would discount the past champions ability are making excuses why their favorite modern players can't break the record.
It may not be that they can't, but that it's just not worth the effort to do it. They don't get anything for it, and it isn't even a game that is played competitively (or much at all) very much any more. Let's face it, it is a tough record to beat and would take some time and effort. Not worth it when the reward is minimal.

No one paid Mosconi a million to set the record.
Actually in a sense he was paid to set it because he set it as a result of getting paid for doing what he was doing at the time. Brunswick paid him for years to do exhibitions/challenge matches, and often he would continue his run after he won if he was on a good run. On top of that it was THE game at the time so he also had incentive to hold the record in it because it meant something. On top of that he stood to gain financially. He might pick up more sponsors, and it certainly made it more likely that Brunswick would keep him on the payroll longer and maybe even increase his salary etc.

Today's players have none of those incentives, but even so if you paid Schmidt or Hohmann or any other of several players to travel around for years doing straight pool exhibition matches on the same equipment and they would continue any good high runs after winning then you still might see them break it even without those incentives Mosconi had. You may want to argue this, but what cannot be argued is that Mosconi had way more opportunity and incentive to break the record than any player of today.

I personally think if there was a real incentive to break the record today you would see it broken quickly. And I'm not talking a million dollars either. I'm talking enough to make it worth the effort. Let's say a person or company put up $30,000 for anyone who could break the record (meaning more than one person would win that amount if more than one person could do it) on the same equipment within a year. The players were made aware of the offer and they knew for sure that the person or entity making it was reputable and legitimate and they would actually receive the payment if they did it. The other stipulation is that the entire run must be filmed at all times from at least two camera angles, and if one camera has to be stopped to change the memory card or for any other reason the other camera has to remain filming continuously during that time. Meaning that while balls are being hit, both cameras have to be running. If one camera has to be turned off, no balls can be hit during that time and the other camera still has to continue filming and then when the second camera is back filming the player can resume his run.

Not only do I think the record would be broken, it would be broken by more than one person, and probably by more than one within two months. Why hasn't someone or some company with a lot of cash put up an offer like this? A) because they don't want to lose their money, and B) because a lot of people would be mad at them for enabling the breaking of a record many people wanted Mosconi to hold for all of time, and to be fair, C) because they don't stand a lot to gain from it except for maybe a company like cuetec who could make the offer only to their sponsored players so when the record was broken they could market the fact that they record was broken with a cuetec.
 
There is a built in bias for going with what you know. People that know the current crop of players, but never saw Mosconi play, will tend to be biased to believe that somebody (or more) from today is better than Mosconi. It is the reason that often times people feel the pro that lives in their area who they have been exposed to the most is the best (Larry Nevel fans as one example, but around Atlanta they tend to think it is Archer, etc, etc). It is the reason why a cue maker's cues are far more popular around where that cue maker lives. Aside from availability, a disproportionate number of local people actually feel that that cue maker makes the best cues available anywhere.

On the flip side though, people are also biased to that which they experienced in their youth. For whatever reason it is human nature to feel that things from their youth (teens and 20's usually but could be any time in the first half or two thirds or so of your life for those that are "older") were better than they are now. You know, the "back in the day" thing. People tend to think everything was better back in the day, the music, the tools, the machinery, the cars, the pool players, etc. People that are in their younger years today will be saying 46 years from now in the year 2060 that Shane Van Boening was the best of all time even if there are several new players in the year 2060 that are twice as good.

The fact is that both sides are equally biased and one side can't use the other side's bias as an argument against them when their side has a bias just as big. What makes sense is to look at everything else where there is objective rather than subjective measurements to see if people are better at it now than they were 60 years ago. Take any other sport or endeavor, and I mean any (even the ones were equipment has no bearing), and people are better at it today than they were 60 years ago 99.9+% of the time (at the top and in depth of field both). Logic tells us that pool players aren't an exception and it holds true here as well, regardless of what our subjective opinion tainted by bias might tell us.

On a side note, another thing I often see that skews people's opinion about someone is how much they dominated in their time. This obviously has zero to do with their skill level (only their skill level as compared to everyone else's at the time), but when someone really dominated an era in something, people's opinions about that person's actual skill level often get irrationally elevated. Using Mosconi as an example, he absolutely dominated during his time which was also for an extended period of time. Nobody today has even come close to that kind of domination. As a result, many people will tend to attribute more skill to Mosconi than he really had. Even if the top 50 players of today all had more skill, some would never be able to see it because none of them are dominating like Mosconi did and that has skewed/biased their opinion of Mosconi's skill. Skill and how much you dominated are completely separate when comparing eras but not everybody can keep them separate on a subconscious level.

Well thought out, well stated, AND completely wrong. A friend tried to use this
same argument on me because he felt Mizerack was the best ever.

In short, there are those of us who can be objective - like say Lou, who never saw
Mosconi play 'till he was nearly TWENTY years past his prime. As good a writer as
Lou is, I am somewhat puzzled why no one else ever seems to grasp how Willie's
skill made the game look efortless.

Once upon a time at the PPPA 14:1 Championship in NYC I overheard a comment.
An older gent was asked how the current field, Siegel, Varner, Rempe, Balsis, and
so on, and so on, compared to Mosconi. he said it was like comparing a
Lumberjack to a brain surgeon.

FWIW - another Lou, Butera that is, said on more than one occasion
Willie was the best ever.

Dale
 
That is extremely well said and a very good analogy of why people think the players of today are better then the players of the past.

Apparently you didn't read the rest of the post that explained why the people that were around to see the players of the past and feel they are the best are equally biased. :grin:

Both sides are biased. The only unbiased objective information we have supports the fact that it is probable that there are players today who have more skill than Mosconi.
 
Apparently you didn't read the rest of the post that explained why the people that were around to see the players of the past and feel they are the best are equally biased. :grin:



Both sides are biased. The only unbiased objective information we have supports the fact that it is probable that there are players today who have more skill than Mosconi.


Since they have more skill, then let them break that puny record on video.
 
Well thought out, well stated, AND completely wrong.

In short, there are those of us who can be objective...

The fact of the matter is that it is far more likely for someone to think they are objective and in reality they aren't and don't even realize it because biases seep in subconsciously. So you may not even truly know yourself if you are objective (even though you feel like you are). But even if you are truly objective, there is no way for anybody else to know it.

With so many people on both sides of an issue like this, with reason for bias on both sides, the only thing that makes sense is to look at data that is purely objective and free from any chance for bias. And when we look at that data from across all sports and endeavors, we can see one thing. That there is a 99.9+% chance that we are better now at a particular sport or activity than we were 60 years ago. There is nothing about pool that would make it an exception.

To be clear I am not saying yours or Lou's argument isn't valid. It is. What I'm saying is that there is just as valid an argument on the other side as well. And empirical evidence clearly supports one side over the other. But neither side will ever truly know which side is right until somebody makes it worth the effort to try to break the record IMO.
 
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Since they have more skill, then let them break that puny record on video.

As I already said, there is no reason to do a lot of work for no reward. Offer a reward large enough to make it worth it, and watch several break it on video, and you won't even have to wait very long.
 
Slow is the way go

Hi,
Lots of discussion earlier about the fast cloth of today as an advantage to high runs. HUH? Does anyone out there remember how to play 14.1??? For straight pool you WANT SLOW CLOTH, and slow cushions as well, so that you can KILL THE CUE BALL. That's the apparently forgotten secret of control and precise position. Properly played,14.1 is a half-table game. I would rather play it on a table with sandpaper for cloth, rather than ice for cloth. A touch of stroke can overcome friction, but there's nothing much your stroke can do when there is no friction. You've got an engine, but no brakes. Think about it....
Oh, and dead clay balls are preferable to Aramiths.
Take care,
Nick
 
I go back to the early '60s and grew up playing straight pool as the main game.
I also grew up in New Jersey and got to see most of the great straight pool players.
I have watched many of the modern players play the game. I have seen them run 100s.
But the pattern play of the old timers was much better. They made the game look easy.
Also it has not been mentioned that safety play is a very important part of straight pool and the old timers were masters of this.
I not only saw Mosconi play but I played him an exhibition game in 1964.
I say i played him but mainly I racked the balls. I made a few and we traded safes and then he made a few and finally he ran a perfect 85 and out.
I once sat 10 feet away and watched Irving Crane run 141 balls and his toughest shot was an easy cross side bank.
Could the modern players of today beat the old timers here and there? Of course they could.
Do they play the game as effortlessly? No they don't but the goal is not to look good but to win.
Of all the straight pool players I have seen and I've seen a lot,nobody played the game as smoothly and pretty as Willie.
 
There is a built in bias for going with what you know. People that know the current crop of players, but never saw Mosconi play, will tend to be biased to believe that somebody (or more) from today is better than Mosconi. It is the reason that often times people feel the pro that lives in their area who they have been exposed to the most is the best (Larry Nevel fans as one example, but around Atlanta they tend to think it is Archer, etc, etc). It is the reason why a cue maker's cues are far more popular around where that cue maker lives. Aside from availability, a disproportionate number of local people actually feel that that cue maker makes the best cues available anywhere.

On the flip side though, people are also biased to that which they experienced in their youth. For whatever reason it is human nature to feel that things from their youth (teens and 20's usually but could be any time in the first half or two thirds or so of your life for those that are "older") were better than they are now. You know, the "back in the day" thing. People tend to think everything was better back in the day, the music, the tools, the machinery, the cars, the pool players, etc. People that are in their younger years today will be saying 46 years from now in the year 2060 that Shane Van Boening was the best of all time even if there are several new players in the year 2060 that are twice as good.

The fact is that both sides are equally biased and one side can't use the other side's bias as an argument against them when their side has a bias just as big. What makes sense is to look at everything else where there is objective rather than subjective measurements to see if people are better at it now than they were 60 years ago. Take any other sport or endeavor, and I mean any (even the ones were equipment has no bearing), and people are better at it today than they were 60 years ago 99.9+% of the time (at the top and in depth of field both). Logic tells us that pool players aren't an exception and it holds true here as well, regardless of what our subjective opinion tainted by bias might tell us.

On a side note, another thing I often see that skews people's opinion about someone is how much they dominated in their time. This obviously has zero to do with their skill level (only their skill level as compared to everyone else's at the time), but when someone really dominated an era in something, people's opinions about that person's actual skill level often get irrationally elevated. Using Mosconi as an example, he absolutely dominated during his time which was also for an extended period of time. Nobody today has even come close to that kind of domination. As a result, many people will tend to attribute more skill to Mosconi than he really had. Even if the top 50 players of today all had more skill, some would never be able to see it because none of them are dominating like Mosconi did and that has skewed/biased their opinion of Mosconi's skill. Skill and how much you dominated are completely separate when comparing eras but not everybody can keep them separate on a subconscious level.


All I know is that Mosconi made YOU believe you could run 100. He made it look that simple, that effortless. After watching Mosconi I ran to the pool hall thinking that there was no way I couldn't run 100.

None of the current crop of players, and I have seen most of them, make me feel the same way.

Lou Figueroa
 
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