Shane is the leader for Mosconi Points followed by Mike Dechaine and then Johnny Archer. I did not look that up but im not sure many people might not know that off the top of their heads.
Thoughts on TAR 21
- Thread starter BasementDweller
- Start date
Shane is the leader for Mosconi Points followed by Mike Dechaine and then Johnny Archer. I did not look that up but im not sure many people might not know that off the top of their heads.
Really? I'll tell everyone the same thing I've been saying all along, the problem with tight pocketed tables is the thought process.
"The tighter the pockets are, the harder it is to win, and therefore the harder it is to lose"
Diamond has it right with the 4 1/2" pockets, the rules the game is being played by are just wrong.
If everyone wants to see more exciting 10 ball, shot making and all. If everyone wants excitement in the race to 100...then why not give extra wins when someone pockets the 10 ball, like spot it back up and keep shooting. Hell, under them rules, Alex or Shane may have been able to win 2, 3 or even 4 times in one game. Take the safeties out of the game as well, ball in hand every-time the player comes to the table if the opponent misses the run out.
I've said before, "10 ball, no holds barred would be the most exciting game to watch, yet...no one really wants to see two world class players just battling it out, do they?
I've promoted, and ran tournaments like this, and from a viewers stand point, it's the most exciting pool there is to watch, because it's sooooo fast paced, there's no time for a break to sit down between shots!!!
Glen
Ok then by this philosophy, TAR should target ONLY top pro players as customers. That should fix the complaining, huh? Only top level players can watch the matches and no "railbirds" to worry about.
Nobody questioned or complained about the quality of production. Nobody complained about the quality of the table. In fact, I don't think anybody has complained at all. There have been opinions of what folks like to see, but absolutely no complaints about the match, table, or production. The match on that table raised a conversation about what folks enjoy when watching pro players compete. Your logic is exactly why pool sucks ass. Everybody (players) says screw the spectators (whom you call railbirds) and only concern themselves with trying to get an edge on the money. Lucky for us, Justin isn't a dumbass and follow this shallow mentality. He does a very good job at juggling what the players want with what the spectators want, to create what we know of as TAR.
Go ahead with the short minded goals & ignore the big picture. Exciting pool means lots of interest. Lots of interest means lots of people enjoying pool. Lots of people enjoying pool means MUCH more money flowing through the industry than what we have now. That translates to MUCH more money in YOUR pockets. You can't get people interested in slow, boring, tedious pool. No people, no money. Simple stuff. Alienate 99.9% of the pool population (railbirds), and you'll have your perfect little world of only pro players who we all know never ever complain. Might I say it will be a very broke, moneyless little world at that. Some folks never see the forest through the trees.
You actually think there's money in playing "Professional" pool? Let me tell you something, there's a LOT more 7ft bar tables sold every year in this country than there is 9ft's, just why do you think that is? Do you really think events like this, is going to get $1.00 from every league player in this country to support pool at this level? You probably still believe a million people paid to watch this event take place, don't you.
What on earth are you talking about? You cannot possibly be this dumb.
I liked your number 5. Especially with such a long match. I would think it would benefit the commentators to keep an eye on what's going on in the chat room. They may even see a question or two that they think would be interesting to the entire audience.
FWIW I thought that the table played great and the players came with plenty of tough outs on the equipment. I honestly did not see the pocket size being a deterrent. It demanded greater focus and greater precision but at the end of the day the players were able to run out on it.
In Shane's first 7 pack (and it was a 7 pack) he had to make several hairy shots and get position and he made them all. Alex played three rail pinpoint shape often and he fired banks in.
Regarding the Race to 100. It's grueling. It's practically impossible for anyone these days to take 24 hours, 8 hours a day out of their lives to watch it all the way through. The time shifting that Justin did by replaying the 7 pack and the last part of the second day was hugely helpful. I missed the 7 pack entirely due to a previous commitment and without the replay would have never seen it as I have no plans to buy the DVDs.
I have often said that TAR should provide online rentals of these matches and/or a time frame for those who bought the ppv to access the replays.
That said there is an element to the three day format that is exciting. Who will win the day and come in as the leader? Where will the momentum go? Will the players cover the spread?
I mean for me it was exciting to see Shane and Alex battling game for game and Alex pulling ahead the whole time on day one looking like he was going to win the day and then Shane lays down a seven pack. Then on day two Alex battles back and the go toe to toe and Alex inches ahead again and again Shane comes through at the end.
And then although a bit anti-climactic Shane opens with a five pack (or four) on Day 3. A real study in contrasting styles between wild and freewheeling Alex and steady "textbook" Shane.
For me it really took three days to see who the better player is. In any given shorter races I see Alex and Shane trading sets. But in a race to 100 the differences in skill and style really show up much more. But maybe we don't need to see who the better player is over three days. Although there was reportedly a lot more than 10k riding on the match I feel that playing 24 hours of pool and up to 199 games between two of the best in the world for 10k is demeaning. Sure it's a lot of money for the actual working time. But when they can play tournament finals races to 13 for more it's not much. I'd like to see the TAR matches happen for a lot more money, 50k a man at least. And yes I know it's all dependent on the backers just like everything else in life is. Still that's my thoughts on it. After all we did have the Color of Money matchup between Strickland and Reyes for $100,000 more than 15 years ago. Playing long races for a 10th of that is quite a few steps back.
BUT overall I am so glad to see it happen. As Shane's backer said on the stream at least now we have these high profile long match races preserved on video for future generations. Previously we often hear stories about when Buddy Hall and Reyes matched up for the cash but no one living can watch it again to see how they really played. Such clashes only live on in the memories of the few who were there.
Now we have them forever.
In Shane's first 7 pack (and it was a 7 pack) he had to make several hairy shots and get position and he made them all. Alex played three rail pinpoint shape often and he fired banks in.
Regarding the Race to 100. It's grueling. It's practically impossible for anyone these days to take 24 hours, 8 hours a day out of their lives to watch it all the way through. The time shifting that Justin did by replaying the 7 pack and the last part of the second day was hugely helpful. I missed the 7 pack entirely due to a previous commitment and without the replay would have never seen it as I have no plans to buy the DVDs.
I have often said that TAR should provide online rentals of these matches and/or a time frame for those who bought the ppv to access the replays.
That said there is an element to the three day format that is exciting. Who will win the day and come in as the leader? Where will the momentum go? Will the players cover the spread?
I mean for me it was exciting to see Shane and Alex battling game for game and Alex pulling ahead the whole time on day one looking like he was going to win the day and then Shane lays down a seven pack. Then on day two Alex battles back and the go toe to toe and Alex inches ahead again and again Shane comes through at the end.
And then although a bit anti-climactic Shane opens with a five pack (or four) on Day 3. A real study in contrasting styles between wild and freewheeling Alex and steady "textbook" Shane.
For me it really took three days to see who the better player is. In any given shorter races I see Alex and Shane trading sets. But in a race to 100 the differences in skill and style really show up much more. But maybe we don't need to see who the better player is over three days. Although there was reportedly a lot more than 10k riding on the match I feel that playing 24 hours of pool and up to 199 games between two of the best in the world for 10k is demeaning. Sure it's a lot of money for the actual working time. But when they can play tournament finals races to 13 for more it's not much. I'd like to see the TAR matches happen for a lot more money, 50k a man at least. And yes I know it's all dependent on the backers just like everything else in life is. Still that's my thoughts on it. After all we did have the Color of Money matchup between Strickland and Reyes for $100,000 more than 15 years ago. Playing long races for a 10th of that is quite a few steps back.
BUT overall I am so glad to see it happen. As Shane's backer said on the stream at least now we have these high profile long match races preserved on video for future generations. Previously we often hear stories about when Buddy Hall and Reyes matched up for the cash but no one living can watch it again to see how they really played. Such clashes only live on in the memories of the few who were there.
Now we have them forever.
I think TAR would appreciate everyone's view on what interests that particular person. There is no right or wrong answer here. Each person, as a individual, has something that they feel they would most be entertained with. Hopefully this thread can stay on track and not become a "Who I would like to see play" thread. There's already one or two of those going on.
If each person indicates what "does it for them", then obviously there might be 50 different productions after it's all said and done. We all know that they can't have 50 different productions, so then in my mind, it would come down to finding the common things that people are interested in. Then a person would have to weigh in whether those are feasible to do.
Justin knows he can't please everyone and there will always be people that are unhappy with what's being presented to them. But the important thing is, I think, that everyone does have something that they like, and one should feel comfortable stating that in this thread without anyone knocking them for what they find enjoyable. If someone likes buckets for pockets because they feel it makes the game more exciting, then there is no need for anyone to rag on them or try and ridicule them for what they find exciting. Watching pool, just like listening to commentators, or buying a particular cue, or which game someone likes the most, or what stroke they use, or whether they bet or not or whatever..... are all personal preferences. To each, their own. I say, let's respect that, in this thread at least
I know Justin stated several times that they are moving away from the long race formats. That in the near future they will be letting everyone know what kind of format they will be moving to. But I can assure you that anyone with any business sense, would welcome people discussing what they find enjoyable and therefore something they may buy. Getting feedback from your potential customers or current customers, is very important to a business owner. Whether those ideas are feasible or not, is another story.
So use this thread to express what you would find ideal to watch or buy. At the same time, maybe indicate what range you would still watch or buy a pool stream. Indicate that you would primarily wish it could be this, but you would still watch this or this, but you would NOT watch this.
I think that would be extremely helpful to TAR. These thoughts I am expressing, are mine, so I'm not speaking for anyone else except myself here.:smile:
Hey Red,good post sir.Let me just say that from a public veiw,I agree with
BasementDweller 100% on everything he said.But I also know that this was set up by the players.I mean If you had ever watched Earl Strickland
In his prime on a easy playin table you would be for sure on the edge of your seat the whole time wating to see how In the heck Is he going to get shape this time.I guarentee you woulnd't nod off at the computer.You just don't see that kind of play anymore.I mean he would jump balls(with a full cue) and draw back all the way down table get shape and maybe run a 5 or 10 pack.Myself,I can't stand to watch 9 or 10 ball anymore.Very boring to say the least,IMO.
Now me as a player,I would rather play on a tight table to at least know for sure that I'm going to get to the table.But as far as watching from a spectator's point of veiw on equipment like that,I don't see how that would go over very good.There Is just nothing exciting to watch like that.
Only for hardcore pool fans.I love what Justin and crew are doing and this Is not to knock them at all.Just trying to be a little helpful that's all.But really,It might be just like they want It too.And that's ok In my book.John B.
Celtic:
I'm not sure that's what the OP is saying. Instead, I think he's saying that it was obvious the players were concentrating on pocketing the balls, instead of really letting loose and giving us a show. One can still run packages with the more conservative "focus on pocketing the ball" technique; it's just done without the flair and the cue ball heroics.
Personally, I feel that if one is a rotation fan, "cue ball heroics" is what they're looking for. But us one pocket and straight pool players look more for consistency, and that's what a match of this nature illustrates. In a way, I think the tight-pocketed table calmed both Alex and Shane down (cue ball heroics-wise), and we got to see more of thought-out simple patterns from them.
Anyway, that's my $0.02 on this,
-Sean
Yeah Sean, but it is not like Shane and Alex spent the match tolling and cinching balls, they shot a ton of shots with spin and power to get multi-rail shape. The reason for so called cueball heroics is the complete lack of respect that pros have for alot of the tables they compete on, potting ability is a non-issue. I really liked the balance between shape play and accuracy this table provided, it was nothing like a gaffy pocket table like Morra and Oscar played on where they cinched and rolled in balls, Alex and Shane were playing real shape, banking alot of balls, and playing proper offensive pool in this match.
That Is very good thinking sir.Your a smart man.. for a pool player.That's exactly how I read his post too.What's that,oh,great minds think a like.hehe.JB
Small Pockets
I think the small pockets made the match boring. Most shots were soft and designed to move the cue ball as little as possible. Almost like watching straight pool instead of 10 ball.
I bet Alex wished the pockets were bigger when he got behind. He had no chance of catching up because we all knew Shane was going to get back to the table plenty of times to finish out the match.
My Reasons I dislike watching pool on 4" pockets
1. No chance for players to put big packages together.
2. No chance for big comebacks.
3. A lot of cinch shots.
4. As little as possible cue ball movement.
5. Playing safes instead of going for the runouts.
6. No bank shots.
I think the small pockets made the match boring. Most shots were soft and designed to move the cue ball as little as possible. Almost like watching straight pool instead of 10 ball.
I bet Alex wished the pockets were bigger when he got behind. He had no chance of catching up because we all knew Shane was going to get back to the table plenty of times to finish out the match.
My Reasons I dislike watching pool on 4" pockets
1. No chance for players to put big packages together.
2. No chance for big comebacks.
3. A lot of cinch shots.
4. As little as possible cue ball movement.
5. Playing safes instead of going for the runouts.
6. No bank shots.
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You all must of watched a different match than I did. I saw some incredible outs from tricky positions. Boring? Well all I can say is that I gamble and I know what those layouts look like on a tight table and so I appreciate every ball and every out that they made.
I thought it was a great match with a lot of great pool. I don't know how anyone could ever watch snooker and think that these pockets were too tight? Seriously, watch a snooker match and you will see them pocket balls with spin and get shape just like playing nine ball. They will pocket balls with speed to break up clusters.
I mean honestly I truly believe that we have some post match mis-remembering what happened. I saw a LOT of great outs where the players, especially Alex, had to come with shots from hell and let the stroke out. Hell Shane OVERDREW his ball like five times more than the length of the table to hook himself.
Honestly I would bet that in 186 games they did not pass up a possible run out to play safe instead more than five times.
Well anyway, I had a great time and I think on review if we really went game for game the truth would be that they played excellent pool with a lot of power and finesse.
Wasn't boring to me AT ALL.
I thought it was a great match with a lot of great pool. I don't know how anyone could ever watch snooker and think that these pockets were too tight? Seriously, watch a snooker match and you will see them pocket balls with spin and get shape just like playing nine ball. They will pocket balls with speed to break up clusters.
I mean honestly I truly believe that we have some post match mis-remembering what happened. I saw a LOT of great outs where the players, especially Alex, had to come with shots from hell and let the stroke out. Hell Shane OVERDREW his ball like five times more than the length of the table to hook himself.
Honestly I would bet that in 186 games they did not pass up a possible run out to play safe instead more than five times.
Well anyway, I had a great time and I think on review if we really went game for game the truth would be that they played excellent pool with a lot of power and finesse.
Wasn't boring to me AT ALL.
I think you meant why I dislike pockets smaller than 4.5''
I too felt the game was over toward the end, before it was over, because the table would not allow it.
Allot of good and realistic points, I'm sure TAR will take some of these and many other points of view into consideration. All these ideas will help open new doors and make the Tar Pit even better.
What I miss tho, in high end rotation pool is when a player gets on the wrong side of the next ball they are shooting, they almost never force follow 4 or five rails (pocket size), those shots are sweet to see and help the shooter catch that second and third gear, too tight it's nearly impossibe to catch a gear for any length of time.
PGA Golf has One size cup hole on the putting surface, I'm sure there's a good reason for it.
Non agressive rotation pool is NOT rotation pool, unless its 15 ball rotation.
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That's pretty much what I was saying.
How about this though - if you played straight pool on a table that was so tight that a 30 or 40 ball run was the best you could hope for would it really be that interesting? I know everyone will say, "Well Shane ran 7 racks." I tend to think that is more a product of his awesome break paired with the magic rack - but that's a whole nother' story.
I agree that the table played well. It didn't appear gaffy at all. In my OP I mentioned something just kept me from really getting into this match and I think part of that was the pocket size. You have to admit that there were several times in this match when both players were having trouble getting into a rhythm and the match really slowed down. I even nodded off at one point. That might have something to do with how late it was but JBKY mentioned, and I think correctly, that you would have never nodded off while watching Strickland play. If nothing else, the pocket size really slowed down the match.
I don't know - every time this subject comes up I start arguing with myself about it and you make some good points. I don't think there is an easy answer. I can tell you this though - I guarantee you that pool halls will never be outfitting their rooms with tables that have 4 1/8 inch pockets. So pros can complain about the loose tables all they want but if they want to play in any regional events than they are going to have to play on looser equipment (which I know they do). If the Diamond tables that have 4 1/2 inch pockets are too big for these guys to compete on, then there is an inherent problem with the game of 10 ball.
Lastly, I did still enjoy this match and I will be back for more with the tight pockets and all. They just leave me a little puzzled when I consider where the game is headed. Maybe Mr. Schofield is right after all
We gotta make this more of a team sport guys
I'd like to see the next TAR match be a scotch doubles match. Ideally SVB and Corey Deuel, if not Corey then Rodney Morris.
Those two against say orcullo and alex in a huge shopping mall in the middle of manila with thousands watching... yehhh
To say the guys weren't getting frustrated with how tight the table was would simply be wrong. I don't know how many of you seen shane throw a piece of chalk, but that sure wasn't because he was happy about having to play so slow and precisely.
1. Pockets are to tight.. like I said in another thread, let the horses freaking run. I want packages man, big f'n ones. I want to see players hitting gears where you can't even looking away because he's in such a God mode.
2. Gorgeous room
3. that's about it really for now. Could say more but just not feeling good.
All IMHO
1. Pockets are to tight.. like I said in another thread, let the horses freaking run. I want packages man, big f'n ones. I want to see players hitting gears where you can't even looking away because he's in such a God mode.
2. Gorgeous room
3. that's about it really for now. Could say more but just not feeling good.
All IMHO