USBTC Professional or not?
- Thread starter 2l82bgr8
- Start date
Considering what Shane had to witness and experience, the event was not well run. If you force a tournament competitor to experience what Shane had to go through it is unfair. The tour operator should have been swift, but his neglect resulted in the issue we are debating on the forum.
It is unfair because tournament staff were not ready and able to resolve the situation. Other players can focus on competing and Shane has to deal with a player's crisis with the tournament operator who was not present. Shane is there to compete not to explain how to behave at tournament.
The issue being how to deal with feedback from players during an event. I'd say just give them questionnaires and let them survey the "heck" out of it.
It is unfair because tournament staff were not ready and able to resolve the situation. Other players can focus on competing and Shane has to deal with a player's crisis with the tournament operator who was not present. Shane is there to compete not to explain how to behave at tournament.
The issue being how to deal with feedback from players during an event. I'd say just give them questionnaires and let them survey the "heck" out of it.
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How ironic is it that someone supposedly running a company called "Bad Boy" billiard productions is raising hell because someone had a disagreement on the live stream and may have gotten a tad bit out of line? lol.
You should change the name to "Good Boy" Billiard Productions.
You should change the name to "Good Boy" Billiard Productions.
The stream table should be opened up. Just the way I feel about it. Whoever is doing the streaming is selling advertising and or PPV against the broadcast so at least don't make the players pay to play on that one table.
So I think Stevie is right. Should he have thrown a fit over it? No. Should it be something that should be addressed for future events? Yes.
Should Stevie have just gone ahead with the match and played it out without worrying about the $10, absolutely.
Should Justin have flipped a table on camera??? Of course.
So I think Stevie is right. Should he have thrown a fit over it? No. Should it be something that should be addressed for future events? Yes.
Should Stevie have just gone ahead with the match and played it out without worrying about the $10, absolutely.
Should Justin have flipped a table on camera??? Of course.
From an economy of motion standpoint it's better to have the table open. I also think it's just courteous. I never see any of the darters jacking coins into the electronic dartboards to play their matches on ESPN.
I also think the games should be loser pays. I don't know what a token costs but I bet it's a dollar. So a hill/hill match costs $13 to play it out. Winning 7:0 costs the winner $3 or $4 depending on who broke first.
I understand that this is the way it is but it's still annoying. I prefer the way it is over here for tournament matches. The clock starts when the match begins and the loser pays time.
A better way would be simply to make it loser pays the time on the barbox as well.
In these barbox tournaments you could easily do it by the score - very simple math here - the maximum amount any single player would have to pay is $26 which represents losing twice on the hill each time.
So when the score sheet is turned in the loser of the match pays for all the games played.
And the easy way to do this is to charge each player $26 up front and then deduct the amount they owe and give them the difference back.
This also stops the practice of finishing racks using the extra balls when the money ball is made early. Every game gets paid for.
The way the tournaments are currently set up people who go deep pay more, i.e. it penalizes people for winning.
The people who bring the tables in want to get paid for every game. So my way gets that done without charging the winners. Every game gets paid for and the people who win their matches don't end up paying more. Every single player in the event pays because with the possible exception of one they will all lose twice at some point. The MAXIMUM amount that any player has to be is known up front and that way everyone can just get on with playing without being pissed and dealing with coins/tokens.
Regarding special privileges for being a pro, if you are in an open event where everyone is paying table time then you pay it. I don't agree with the table being open sometimes and not open others. But I still maintain that the streaming table should be open as a courtesy to the players on it. Regardless of who does more for pool the facts are that the players on the stream table ARE the entertainment that people are choosing to watch. No players, no stream. So at the very least, no matter WHO they are, the table time should be comped.
IMO you can look at it both ways but ultimately I look at it like this. As part of playing in the tournament and having a chance to win the added money you have to play on the stream table, the chance to win added money is your compensation simple as that. The stream brings exposures to the players, promoters, sponsors and is good for the game in general. Some players get it and others don't, some do not see the benefits of streaming and the internet yet but there is many opportunities out there for these guys if they took the time.
I told Scott Frost that he should sell real estate on his shirts when he is playing in an event like the DCC. Charge $100 a patch or something as he is going to be on Accu-stats a couple times and the mileage those sponsors get live and on future video is huge, who cares if he looks like a race car driver with 20 sponsors on there. I just do not think the players are all that wise or hip to it all yet but perhaps they will smarten up to it and realize its here to stay and the future for pool. I think tournaments with added money who have streams should just make the players sign releases when they pay their entrees.
As for the token stuff on the stream, I think the stream table should have been free, how much money did that table take in for matches that were live streamed? I am guessing around $500 or so, I can understand Bad Boys wanting that money to help with cost but it does look funny watching them on the stream put in tokens, imagine that happening on ESPN.
Perhaps next time a green fee like $5 a player for the stream table or maybe offer someone to be a sponsor and have the table open for the players. I am sure a sponsor would not mind paying $500 for a week of being the sponsor of having the table open for the pros and maybe having a banner on the table. Just some ideas but I can see all points of view on this.
I told Scott Frost that he should sell real estate on his shirts when he is playing in an event like the DCC. Charge $100 a patch or something as he is going to be on Accu-stats a couple times and the mileage those sponsors get live and on future video is huge, who cares if he looks like a race car driver with 20 sponsors on there. I just do not think the players are all that wise or hip to it all yet but perhaps they will smarten up to it and realize its here to stay and the future for pool. I think tournaments with added money who have streams should just make the players sign releases when they pay their entrees.
As for the token stuff on the stream, I think the stream table should have been free, how much money did that table take in for matches that were live streamed? I am guessing around $500 or so, I can understand Bad Boys wanting that money to help with cost but it does look funny watching them on the stream put in tokens, imagine that happening on ESPN.
Perhaps next time a green fee like $5 a player for the stream table or maybe offer someone to be a sponsor and have the table open for the players. I am sure a sponsor would not mind paying $500 for a week of being the sponsor of having the table open for the pros and maybe having a banner on the table. Just some ideas but I can see all points of view on this.
I don't care if God is playing in the tournament, If I have to pay per game so does GOD. I like Stevie, but he is no better then I am. Weather you can barley hold a cue or never miss a ball, you should be treated the same if you are in the same even. Period.
The only players that get to play in the steaming table are the better players for obvious reasons. Why should they not have to pay if I have to 2 tables down the line?
The only players that get to play in the steaming table are the better players for obvious reasons. Why should they not have to pay if I have to 2 tables down the line?
Can you please name one other?
I like the idea of having a sponsor to cover the table. Adds another thing to sell. Table Fee Sponsored by SuperPro....
I just did the math on a 128 player bracket (well I did the google) and it's 255 matches. At a race to 7 that's a maximum of $13 per match or $3315 in table time for the event. That's only if every race goes hill/hill and players don't use the extra balls to play games when the money ball was made early in the previous game.
Frankly that's not a lot of money for the people hauling in the tables. I don't know how many tables were set up but with a ten table tournament that's only $300 per table. They have to be there days before and at least a day after the event and fade expenses for the whole crew that whole time.
I understand that there were three events happening and if all three were 128 man full fields then the math is still the same. 10k-ish as the table time for an event where you bring in a crew days before and after plus road time plus gas plus other expenses is not much.
I can see where anyone whining about paying for the table would set me off if I were the person doing all the tables. However I still think that the streaming table should be free to the players. Someone should pay for it though.
Stevie may have handled it wrong but he had a very valid point, paying by the game is just an insult. It's something I'd expect in a local barbox banger tournament. Make a green fee and open em up. By the way very professional of you to bash Stevie on the internet.
Here is what happened from my point of view. Far as I know I was the only guy who was actually there for everything from beginning to end as far as the whole Dollar-Gate issue is concerned. (Henceforth what this drama fest will be referred as....least by me)
Before the tournament started I went to Mark Griffin and asked that the streaming table be opened up. I did this for two reasons:
A. I think it is simply a nice gesture for the guys who are good enough to play on that table.
2. IMO its looks bad having guys stick tokens in a table on a stream.
I didn't go over these reasons with Mark I just ask it be opened up and he said "OK." First streaming match of the event was Stevie Moore vs I Don't Remember (not the players real name...I dont actually remember his name. Sorry) They come down and start happily banging away on the open table frolicking like children in a candy store with the owner away.
Maybe twenty minutes into the stream Mark came up and said he had discussed the issue with staff and they decided to close the table. The main reason being to treat everyone equally. One pays they all pay. Thats a tough point to argue against and I see things both ways but more on that later we got drama to get to.
Flash forward to the hot seat match....Stevie comes down and figures out the tables locked and goes into full on diva mode. I tried to talk to him off to the side and explain what had happened but he already had a full head of indignant steam. You see here was a another case of the Man (I assume this is CSI, TAR and everyone who cant beat him at pool) keeping him (the honest, hard working, and forthright pro pool player) down.
I tried to explain to Stevie that I understood where he was coming from. I hate the Man too you see. I tried to tell him why the table had been closed but he would have none of it he was too busy telling me about all the money I was making off of him by keeping him down. It seems Stevie thinks I am part of the Man. Which while offensive is still so ludicrously hilarious that I wasn't even pissed at him yet for acting like a girl who got felt up at the drive in over the situation. (Points for knowing the reference) Honestly I was waiting for him to start chanting "ATTICA....ATTICA....ATTICA" at any minute. It was all very dramatic.
So Stevie storms out talking boycott....only to return after deciding having the courage of his convictions would mean losing some money. Who would actually ever do that ? Instead of doing what he so dramatically threatened to do..which is basically quit...he goes over to Shane and tries to talk him into boycotting as well. Like the UAW in the bad old days and the Russian revolution and the Civil Rights movement it was time for the down trodden to stand up to the man....except Shane told him "These guys have to make money too" and Stevie replied "You are as fvcking dumb as they are."
As I hope you can tell I tried to be funny up to this point. The reason for that is that I was so pissed off for a couple days after this event I was about ready to start kicking one of the thousands of dogs being walked around the hotel. I'm over it all now.
There is a discussion to be had about streaming and greens fees or putting dollars in tables. There is also a time and manner to have that discussion. Stevie's first instinct was not to talk about the situation...it was to boycott. That a French word that means "I quit instead of wanting to work out the issue at hand" It seems to be the go to strategy for a certain segment of pro pool players.
If Stevie would of had the courage of his convictions and actually went through with it I would still respect him. But he didnt. He went and tried to get someone else to take the heat for his decision with him and when that didnt work out he insulted the guy who seconds before he was approaching as a brother in arms who could understand his plight. Thats when I lost all respect for him. I'm sure that matters as much to him as what he is probably saying about TAR concerns me. I have officially given my last shit for people who would rather stomp their feet and threaten to take their ball and go home than act like an adult and resolve a problem.
I'm done trying to please people who do not understand the basic way the world works. Someone who pays you for doing a job has to receive equal or more value from having that job performed or they will no longer have a motivation or opportunity to pay you to do anything. And just for anyone who isnt following along at home.....people who hold events and add money to them pay professional pool players salaries. If you dont believe it just wait after a few more years of the current BS going on and see what it looks like when no one even wants to fool with the nonsense.
My ending thought is this: If you want to be treated like a professional you have to act like one.
Before the tournament started I went to Mark Griffin and asked that the streaming table be opened up. I did this for two reasons:
A. I think it is simply a nice gesture for the guys who are good enough to play on that table.
2. IMO its looks bad having guys stick tokens in a table on a stream.
I didn't go over these reasons with Mark I just ask it be opened up and he said "OK." First streaming match of the event was Stevie Moore vs I Don't Remember (not the players real name...I dont actually remember his name. Sorry) They come down and start happily banging away on the open table frolicking like children in a candy store with the owner away.
Maybe twenty minutes into the stream Mark came up and said he had discussed the issue with staff and they decided to close the table. The main reason being to treat everyone equally. One pays they all pay. Thats a tough point to argue against and I see things both ways but more on that later we got drama to get to.
Flash forward to the hot seat match....Stevie comes down and figures out the tables locked and goes into full on diva mode. I tried to talk to him off to the side and explain what had happened but he already had a full head of indignant steam. You see here was a another case of the Man (I assume this is CSI, TAR and everyone who cant beat him at pool) keeping him (the honest, hard working, and forthright pro pool player) down.
I tried to explain to Stevie that I understood where he was coming from. I hate the Man too you see. I tried to tell him why the table had been closed but he would have none of it he was too busy telling me about all the money I was making off of him by keeping him down. It seems Stevie thinks I am part of the Man. Which while offensive is still so ludicrously hilarious that I wasn't even pissed at him yet for acting like a girl who got felt up at the drive in over the situation. (Points for knowing the reference) Honestly I was waiting for him to start chanting "ATTICA....ATTICA....ATTICA" at any minute. It was all very dramatic.
So Stevie storms out talking boycott....only to return after deciding having the courage of his convictions would mean losing some money. Who would actually ever do that ? Instead of doing what he so dramatically threatened to do..which is basically quit...he goes over to Shane and tries to talk him into boycotting as well. Like the UAW in the bad old days and the Russian revolution and the Civil Rights movement it was time for the down trodden to stand up to the man....except Shane told him "These guys have to make money too" and Stevie replied "You are as fvcking dumb as they are."
As I hope you can tell I tried to be funny up to this point. The reason for that is that I was so pissed off for a couple days after this event I was about ready to start kicking one of the thousands of dogs being walked around the hotel. I'm over it all now.
There is a discussion to be had about streaming and greens fees or putting dollars in tables. There is also a time and manner to have that discussion. Stevie's first instinct was not to talk about the situation...it was to boycott. That a French word that means "I quit instead of wanting to work out the issue at hand" It seems to be the go to strategy for a certain segment of pro pool players.
If Stevie would of had the courage of his convictions and actually went through with it I would still respect him. But he didnt. He went and tried to get someone else to take the heat for his decision with him and when that didnt work out he insulted the guy who seconds before he was approaching as a brother in arms who could understand his plight. Thats when I lost all respect for him. I'm sure that matters as much to him as what he is probably saying about TAR concerns me. I have officially given my last shit for people who would rather stomp their feet and threaten to take their ball and go home than act like an adult and resolve a problem.
I'm done trying to please people who do not understand the basic way the world works. Someone who pays you for doing a job has to receive equal or more value from having that job performed or they will no longer have a motivation or opportunity to pay you to do anything. And just for anyone who isnt following along at home.....people who hold events and add money to them pay professional pool players salaries. If you dont believe it just wait after a few more years of the current BS going on and see what it looks like when no one even wants to fool with the nonsense.
My ending thought is this: If you want to be treated like a professional you have to act like one.
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The stream table should be opened up. Just the way I feel about it. Whoever is doing the streaming is selling advertising and or PPV against the broadcast so at least don't make the players pay to play on that one table.
So I think Stevie is right. Should he have thrown a fit over it? No. Should it be something that should be addressed for future events? Yes.
Should Stevie have just gone ahead with the match and played it out without worrying about the $10, absolutely.
Should Justin have flipped a table on camera??? Of course.
Towards the end I was pissed off enough I could of started juggling them.
This was a different situation. All the money from the stream goes back into the same CSI pot as the rest of the tournament revenue. I'm not gonna get into specifics but TAR wasnt there charging PPV on a table with players paying and then taking the millions in revenue and spending it on strippers and blow. Some people will never believe that though but they can go piss up a rope.
In this case the PPV is a revenue stream that helps the event pay for the nut and hopefully make a profit.
It was a bump in the road. Overall the event was awesome. The mood was up beat at the tournament, the venue was great and the vast majority of people I talked to about it enjoyed the experience and said they would come back.
Next time I'M in town i will be sure to bring a bottle of Makers Mark by the studio for a cover charge.
Love this Post!
(I had been waiting for your input on it)
As always Justin you bring some humor (to lighten up the drama) and a voice of reason to put the situation in to perspective. Most of the post on this situation had gotten away from what the real complaint was..Stevie's poor behavior and handling of the situation.
So many people do appreciate what you, Mark and all the others do for the pool world so please Carry on Soldiers!
Another great job by TAR and CSI and Bad Boys. How people can defend Stevie I'll never know. I'm truly dumbfounded by some of the posts in this thread.
stevie was upset because he and shane were on a live ppv stream and he had to pay table fee's...would you buy a ppv knowing you would be watching some guys you never herd of and maybe plays a little better than you? You buy the ppv hoping to see guys like stevie and shane match up. Now if the ppv fee's go back into the tourney, should all players be treated equal...is that fair?
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