USBTC Professional or not?

[RobertR]

You should not be putting coins in the "T.V." table. It is a bit insulting. Not a huge deal, But I agree.

I disagree with you here Jayman. What would be insulting to me as a player would be if they didn't have to put coins in the table, while I have to in the same round, just because my name isn't recognized and I don't have any sponsors to placate.

People seem to confuse what TAR does with real TV. If this were real TV, we wouldn't be having a coin discussion at all. What it is is internet live stream, where a bunch of pool players want to watch other pool players play. I would lay 6-5 that over 95% of the people watching the stream when this happened have put a coin in a coin slot on a borbox many times before.

 

[RADAR]

No professional or anybody that matter should have to pay to be on air!!! Golfers,basketball, football players don't on a individual basis. Greed or perhaps more money needed to take pool to the next level. Crazy idea for sure! Govt and politicians have ruined money issues with people. Never enough!! To many regulations,taxes and expecting private sector to pay there benefits. Becoming a end of a nation!

 

[Melissa Herndon]

I think this could have been handled better by all involved. If Stevie had a problem, it should have been taken up with tournament direction after the match and not in view of any spectators.

But this public "outing" of his behavior is unprofessional as well. Your post lacks diplomacy in any form...and it also lacks any respect for Stevie as a professional...or a human being for that matter. Gentlemen works business matters out privately. And if you say that it was him who wasn't being a gentleman so why should you?....then I say lead by example instead of treating someone poorly simply because they did it first.

This isn't a playground. And bullying isn't nice.

Melissa

 

[joey900rr]

I was not attempting to be smug, I apologize. What I meant was if that goes to you guys, perhaps there is a better way to collect that, perhaps raising entry fees to cover it. What I was getting at was that it seems to be bad form, imo, to charge players per game. I'm sure many players, if not most, had a problem with this.

Totally agree. I thought it was tacky seeing these pros put coins in the table while being in a tournament. Raise the entry fee to cover expenses.

 

[thekid0627]

Where does the money go? Seriously! What do you think it cost to bring in 40 tables in one truck, 10 9' tables and all the other equipment in another. Insurance, fuel, maintenance of the tables, all the work of pulling off an event.
Oh hell you do the math

. Anyone who thinks it is right that for all these pro players to pay to play is CRAZY!!! Most of these players dont have sponsors there for they are paying there entry fees plus all there own expenses. As far as cost in bringing in tables, insurence, etc etc etc o well obviously if you dont wanna indure these cost dont have the event. It aint fair to these players that they are paying every game to play.

 

[easy-e]

. Anyone who thinks it is right that for all these pro players to pay to play is CRAZY!!! Most of these players dont have sponsors there for they are paying there entry fees plus all there own expenses. As far as cost in bringing in tables, insurence, etc etc etc o well obviously if you dont wanna indure these cost dont have the event. It aint fair to these players that they are paying every game to play.

I think it is perfectly fair. Every event you go to they take out "green fees". In those events, every player pays the same amount. In this specific event, the more you pay, the more you are making. The lesser players lose earlier, so they pay less in "green fees".

I think putting the coins in the table really adds a fun element to the tournament, and makes it feel more like playing in a bar table event. As far as Stevie's actions (which I watched in amazement on PPV), he should have handled it with more tact. Weather he was right or wrong could/will be debated all night long, but he lost the respect of a few people with his actions. In the long run, that might cost him far more than the $5 in coins that he was fighting over.

 

[jayman]

I disagree with you here Jayman. What would be insulting to me as a player would be if they didn't have to put coins in the table, while I have to in the same round, just because my name isn't recognized and I don't have any sponsors to placate.

People seem to confuse what TAR does with real TV. If this were real TV, we wouldn't be having a coin discussion at all. What it is is internet live stream, where a bunch of pool players want to watch other pool players play. I would lay 6-5 that over 95% of the people watching the stream when this happened have put a coin in a coin slot on a borbox many times before.

Well said. I am on the fence here now. Leaning in the direction of your stated opinion. I really don't like being treated like a second class citizen either! Hmmm?

 

[Williebetmore]

and it also lacks any respect for Stevie as a professional...or a human being for that matter. Melissa

Melissa,
I hear you....

On the other hand, I was there also; observed the entire episode. After watching, there is no observer that could ever call Stevie a professional - childish, petulant, not in control of his emotions.

It was explained to him that all tourney matches were requiring coins, including the stream table, and it was explained that TAR was not making money on this stream. He just continued to ramble on about how unfair everything is (very childish); and try to egg his opponent into joining the complaining. I give large props to Justin for not just knocking the snot out of him (he basically was calling Justin a liar to his face...Justin walked away...THAT is professional..).

While Stevie may be a human being, a professional he is NOT (if the definition of professional includes adult behavior). Just my opinion. I found the whole thing comical - I've never seen an adult in such a trivial situation look like he was going to cry - too funny - all over 5 dollars.

 

[Murdoch7627]

Ric Jones,

Let's look at some questions to help us all understand what happened.

1. What was your purpose for this post? That is, what positive results did you think would happen?

2. In prior years did players have to pay on the streaming table or was it open?

3. If this was a change from prior years did you make that clear in the players meeting?

4. Did Stevie play on the streaming table before the hot seat match in question and did he have to pay then?

Thank you in advance for helping us all get a clearer picture of why Stevie acted as he did.

Regards,

Frank Reid (Fly Man)

 

[justnum]

Instead of reaching out to the problem player, the OP is publicly stating he could've ejected the player but didn't. Aside from painting yourself as the most caring an amazing director, try to reach out to Stevie. I think his user name is Blade on AZ.

It is unfortunate when professionals have issues at the worst moments. The best approach is to be direct and discrete. A public discussion is better for when people get scammed and are alerting other scammers.

Instead of asking the board talk to Stevie, it could be as simple as him having a bad day or more complicated. But since you didn't ask him it makes you look like you don't know what you are doing.

 

[champ2107]

So Stevie gets pissed off in a tourney and voices his opinion, in what a 10 minute dispute and you guys come on here and trash him i have disputes every second day at my work! wtf no wonder i @#$%en rumble with 90% of this $%^&ing board.

 

[itsfroze]

really is it necessary ?

let's start this by being perfectly clear. I am Ric Jones of Bad Boys Billiard Productions. I was hired by Mark Griffin of CSI to be the tournament director for the USBT. This whole deal is on me and no one else.
Apparently Stevie Moore took issue with having to put tokens in the live stream table. He threw a fit, got in Kenny Shuman's face and Justin's before putting his problem on Shane Van Boening, (his opponent). He went as far as calling Shane stupid for not having a problem paying for his games, Stevie even implied that TAR should being paying him and Shane be cause they were on the pay per view.
Unfortunately I was not made aware of this until after the fact. I would have put an immediate stop to this, even if it meant forfieting Stevie in the hot-seat match on live stream. I feel it was very unprofessional, possibly snarling his opponent, and it was also just an idiotic argument.
First- this is a pay to play event, why should Stevie not have to pay but everyone else does. Unfortunately only the premiere matches make it to streaming. That's an added luxury most players don't get. Hummm so the little guy doesn't get to have that little touch of fame and his has to pay to play, but Stevie gets to be broadcast on the Internet across the world AND he should get it for free! NO, not the way I see it. As far as TAR paying the players that are on the live stream, yeah right! How about each player that has a sponsor, pay TAR a percentage for showcasing the player and his or hers sponsor for the world to see.
I personally think Stevie was totally wrong!! Maybe I just see it differently. But if anyone was gonna get free games, it should be the weakest players in the event. They are the ones that raise the prize funds with their entries and help the promoters to make the expenses.
I guess I could solve all of Stevies complaints with this issue by keeping him off the TV table, but I don't think his sponsors would like that.
What do you all think

Is it really necessary for the streaming table to be pay per game ?

There were (according to Holly from CSI) 1,107 matches played in all tournaments, that's matches not games. So you can estimate how many games were payed for. Was what Stevie did right? Well I think we all know the answer to that. Was coming on here and flaming Stevie in public right? Well I think this is the same answer. Wouldn't it be as easy to figure out how many games were played in the semi's and finals on average in the last few years and divide that by the number of entries and just raise the entry fees by that much.

 

[justnum]

So Stevie gets pissed off in a tourney and voices his opinion, in what a 10 minute dispute and you guys come on here and trash him i have disputes every second day at my work! wtf no wonder i @#$%en rumble with 90% of this $%^&ing board.

But does a player have a right to be public with his lack of preference for the tournament operations concerning paying for tables? A player is technically in the tournament as a gambler, and all casinos have rules to follow concerning gambler conduct. Billiards is also a sport which makes traditional analogies inapplicable.

In either case giving feedback to an operator can only make an event better.

 

[Celtic]

I am certainly not going to say Stevie was in the right if things went off as you said they did. He is clearly in the wrong.

But.

Tournaments like the USBTC should go to a green fee and open the tables. The events in Vegas have moved towards doing that and it is better. Instead of charging $1 a game charge a $25 green fee and open the tables. There are many reasons this is better, not the least of which when pool gets TV exposure as the USBTC did it does not look like a cheap nickle and dime sport where professional players are plugging the tables like the regular Joes at the pub. Putting that type of image out there and into the public eye makes this sport look cheap, it hurts it's image and the image of a "professional" pool player, and that hurts the growth of this sport. It simply looks terrible for this sport when Shane Van Boeing is kneeling down in between games to plug a token into a table to get the balls out, it looks cheap and tacky and that is the last thing pool needs to put out there as its image.

Given the way the tournament was set up though Stevie had no cause to suddenly make it an issue on the TV table, nothing need change at that instant and Stevie SHOULD look out for the fact that his sponsers WOULD benefit from the stream exposure if he carried himself as a true professional. His arguement should not have been about "I am Stevie Moore, you guys are making money streaming this and I should not have to pay", it should have been "are you serious, you are going to make me and SVB plug the table in a streamed semi final? That looks tacky, here is $20 cash, now do this sport a favor and open up the table so you don't make the pros in this sport look like chumps."

 

[itsfroze]

Why must it be optional? I'm not disagreeing, just wondering. All of the players entered the event knowing that the tournament would be live-streamed.

Think CrownCityCorey ment it's optional whether you play on the TV table you don't have to.

I don't really know if this is the rule though,this line added with edit

 

[easy-e]

Think CrownCityCorey ment it's optional whether you play on the TV table you don't have to.

Why is playing on the stream table optional? I missed that part. I thought you had to play on the table you were assigned and that was final. If he did have a choice, than I think he would have selected another table.

 

[itsfroze]

I am certainly not going to say Stevie was in the right if things went off as you said they did. He is clearly in the wrong.

But.

Tournaments like the USBTC should go to a green fee and open the tables. The events in Vegas have moved towards doing that and it is better. Instead of charging $1 a game charge a $25 green fee and open the tables. There are many reasons this is better, not the least of which when pool gets TV exposure as the USBTC did it does not look like a cheap nickle and dime sport where professional players are plugging the tables like the regular Joes at the pub. Putting that type of image out there and into the public eye makes this sport look cheap, it hurts it's image and the image of a "professional" pool player, and that hurts the growth of this sport. It simply looks terrible for this sport when Shane Van Boeing is kneeling down in between games to plug a token into a table to get the balls out, it looks cheap and tacky and that is the last thing pool needs to put out there as its image.

Given the way the tournament was set up though Stevie had no cause to suddenly make it an issue on the TV table, nothing need change at that instant and Stevie SHOULD look out for the fact that his sponsers WOULD benefit from the stream exposure if he carried himself as a true professional. His arguement should not have been about "I am Stevie Moore, you guys are making money streaming this and I should not have to pay", it should have been "are you serious, you are going to make me and SVB plug the table in a streamed semi final? That looks tacky, here is $20 cash, now do this sport a favor and open up the table so you don't make the pros in this sport look like chumps."

Tap Tap Tap Well said.

 

[2l82bgr8]

Yes let's raise the entry fee to cover the cost!!! That way the recreation players (roughly 70%) can't afford to come to this event, just to have fun and play against one of the pro players.

That will kill the prize fund for the winning players.

No one is charging players to be on the streaming table. It's a pay per game event.

As far as me not being professional, I never demanded to be treated as a professional, nor did I act a fool in front of the camera. Sure let's keep it private, bull crap- Stevie didn't keep it private and I am sick of players acting out in front of the world and then it's pushed under the carpet.

BadBoys has never opened the table for semi or finals, once the coin mech got stuck and we had the players pay with score sheet.

Why would I want to let the players making the most money, play for free. Go to CTS on Demand and look at the brackets with payouts. This is a great event, the most bang for buck.

Sure pro players don't make as much as they should, but no excuse for this.
Also Stevie was told that the table being open earlier was a mistake, but he still acted a fool.

The players that are streamed get way more out of being on that table than the streamers. I can give you a list but I think you should think about it

 

[justnum]

Apparently Stevie Moore took issue with having to put tokens in the live stream table. He threw a fit, got in Kenny Shuman's face and Justin's before putting his problem on Shane Van Boening, (his opponent). He went as far as calling Shane stupid for not having a problem paying for his games, Stevie even implied that TAR should being paying him and Shane be cause they were on the pay per view.

Unfortunately I was not made aware of this until after the fact. I would have put an immediate stop to this, even if it meant forfieting Stevie in the hot-seat match on live stream. I feel it was very unprofessional, possibly sharking his opponent, and it was also just an idiotic argument.

The obvious problem is the OP did not have situational awareness. Sure if your are managing a large event, people have to delegate roles. But at the end of the day the top worker has to demonstrate their skills for all levels and roles of the job.

Since the player went through several people before the big guy was called in, its obvious his staff was not trained to handle the situation. Unproperly trained staff is the fault of one person, the person that hired them.

Sure customers get rowdy all the time, who is getting paid to manage them? Instead of looking out for a player's best interest, the tournaments best interest you went the route of assigning blame. What is that going to change? Make you feel better.

 

[champ2107]

Yes let's raise the entry fee to cover the cost!!! That way the recreation players (roughly 70%) can't afford to come to this event, just to have fun and play against one of the pro players.

That will kill the prize fund for the winning players.

No one is charging players to be on the streaming table. It's a pay per game event.

As far as me not being professional, I never demanded to be treated as a professional, nor did I act a fool in front of the camera. Sure let's keep it private, bull crap- Stevie didn't keep it private and I am sick of players acting out in front of the world and then it's pushed under the carpet.

BadBoys has never opened the table for semi or finals, once the coin mech got stuck and we had the players pay with score sheet.

Why would I want to let the players making the most money, play for free. Go to CTS on Demand and look at the brackets with payouts. This is a great event, the most bang for buck.

Sure pro players don't make as much as they should, but no excuse for this.
Also Stevie was told that the table being open earlier was a mistake, but he still acted a fool.

The players that are streamed get way more out of being on that table than the streamers. I can give you a list but I think you should think about it

i dont who you and dont really care either but why are you still trashing Stevie again? Maybe he had a brain cramp at that point in time and regrets what he did now. I dont think anyone other than the handful of guys that were there would even know about this until you started this thread against Stevie. You made this issue public not Stevie. i bet you have never tried to discuss this with stevie before posting this thread.