What expectations should a buyer have when they purchase a Custom Cue

[manwon]

Hello Az Billiards, there have been a number of problems encountered by members who purchase Custom Cues on the forum lately. I think that many of these buyers have legitiment complains concerning their treatment during some of these transactions.

#NOTE# First let me say that it is not the forum owners responsibility to Police the transactions and it is also in no way their responsibility when a transaction is not completed to the satisfaction of those concerned parties.

I for one am totally sick of the behavior that is common place by some of our membership. I have been a member since 2005 and I found no better Billiards forum on the Internet. I post and support many forums, however, I have personally learned more here than on any other forum to date. My purpose for being here is to share the little that I know, and to learn as much as possible above what I love Billiards History, Cue making History, and Custom Cue making. Having said this I feel a bond with many people here on this forum, the wealth of knowledge in all the areas I have listed above is tremendous.

In my opinion the forum membership as a whole must protect each other and treat each other like an extended family. When a forum member is out of line we should contact them through Pm and explain what we see, and how we feel. There is no need for being disrespectful, because at times we all certainly show our collective back sides. But when we are wrong sometimes we do not see it without the help of others pointing out our mistakes.

When a single forum member has problems with transactions in the for sale / trade section of the forum THAT ARE LEGITIMET the forum as a whole must ban together to not only help correct the problems, but also to stop others and especially our new membership from falling into the same trap.

To all forum members, when you enter into a transaction with others here, you are doing so at your own risk. You must read between the lines, and by this I am saying do not go completely by what others say (because it may be Hype and babble that has been bought). Do not go completely by a persons Green Squares used for reputation (because they can be bought). Do not go competely by a members I-trader recommendations ( because they can also be bought). Please take the time to reseach the individual you are dealing with, by reading their posts / threads and then by contacting privately other long standing members for a recommendation on the individuals creditbility, Honesty, and integrity.

What I ask for is the input of all forum members on this subject, everyones opinion is needed, our strength is in numbers and unity.

Thanks for listening / reading and please think about what is being said here, if some one knows that something is wrong and does nothing about it they are also part of the problem.

 

[Kid Dynomite]

Thank you 4 a sincere post

I must thank you for a very sincere post.

I do not buy much and am really picky as to what I buy. Lately, it is getting more and more difficult. Some take pay-pal. Some take only money orders, some will escrow and some will not. The whole pay pal thing really sucks if you ask me. It was the easiest and safest way to buy online. it is ashame that even that is no longer a viable way to do business.

I have recommended an AZB Most Wanted section for stolen cues and transaction reports and got no response or very little support.

You really have to ready their post and search each thread for any negative comments and it sucks and takes forever!

I want to know if anyone has ever used western union to send money and if western union has the same problems as PAYPAL????? I was looking online to buy a money order via the internet and was wondering if it is safe??? Slightly more expensive I believe but that can be worked out between buyer and seller.

Sincerely,
Kid Dynomite

 

[JimS]

I voted there is never an excuse but I suppose there MIGHT be in some very rare cases. For example: I can see someone who lives alone being in an accident and in the hospital for a while being a reason for no communication.

If difficult situations arise and these situations are explainable they MUST be explained. Lack of communication indicates, imo, lack of desire to do the right thing.

 

[qbilder]

Communication is key. I don't stress over deadlines or people waiting, but i'm always there to answer questions & when they get tired of waiting I don't mind if they move on, and when they get rude or pushy then I don't mind telling them to move on. But i'm always in communication. The exception is if i'm on vacation, which I take roughly 5 times per year, don't even think for a minute i'm going to be near a computer or answering my phone. Otherwise, i'm always game for talking or just plain BS. And if anybody has paid, refunds are always an option as I keep plenty around to refund ANY money that has been paid to me. I don't spend a dime until the player has cue in hand & is happy. I'm a unique guy, build unique cues, and if somebody wants one then expect a unique experience getting it.

 

[manwon]

Communication is key. I don't stress over deadlines or people waiting, but i'm always there to answer questions & when they get tired of waiting I don't mind if they move on, and when they get rude or pushy then I don't mind telling them to move on. But i'm always in communication. The exception is if i'm on vacation, which I take roughly 5 times per year, don't even think for a minute i'm going to be near a computer or answering my phone. Otherwise, i'm always game for talking or just plain BS. And if anybody has paid, refunds are always an option as I keep plenty around to refund ANY money that has been paid to me. I don't spend a dime until the player has cue in hand & is happy. I'm a unique guy, build unique cues, and if somebody wants one then expect a unique experience getting it.

I'm a unique guy, build unique cues, and if somebody wants one then expect a unique experience getting it.[/QUOTE]

It is unfortunate that more people do not follow your value system today. Your business ethics and the professional manner in which you have chosen to do business will only further enhance your business.

Thanks for your post

 

[manwon]

I voted there is never an excuse but I suppose there MIGHT be in some very rare cases. For example: I can see someone who lives alone being in an accident and in the hospital for a while being a reason for no communication.

If difficult situations arise and these situations are explainable they MUST be explained. Lack of communication indicates, imo, lack of desire to do the right thing.

I totally agree Jim!!

Thanks for your post!!!

 

[manwon]

I must thank you for a very sincere post.

I do not buy much and am really picky as to what I buy. Lately, it is getting more and more difficult. Some take pay-pal. Some take only money orders, some will escrow and some will not. The whole pay pal thing really sucks if you ask me. It was the easiest and safest way to buy online. it is ashame that even that is no longer a viable way to do business.

I have recommended an AZB Most Wanted section for stolen cues and transaction reports and got no response or very little support.

You really have to ready their post and search each thread for any negative comments and it sucks and takes forever!

I want to know if anyone has ever used western union to send money and if western union has the same problems as PAYPAL????? I was looking online to buy a money order via the internet and was wondering if it is safe??? Slightly more expensive I believe but that can be worked out between buyer and seller.

Sincerely,
Kid Dynomite

Thanks very much for your insight, and I think you have brought up some very good points.

Thanks

 

[masonh]

I want to know if anyone has ever used western union to send money and if western union has the same problems as PAYPAL????? I was looking online to buy a money order via the internet and was wondering if it is safe??? Slightly more expensive I believe but that can be worked out between buyer and seller.

it is the least safe method to send money.i like to get a USPS money order and send it registered mail if i was leary of the seller.you have recourse with the USPS Postal Inspector,and most people do not want to mess with him.

 

[hoosier_cues]

it is the least safe method to send money.i like to get a USPS money order and send it registered mail if i was leary of the seller.you have recourse with the USPS Postal Inspector,and most people do not want to mess with him.

Only thing worst IMO is the IRS.

 

[HollyWood]

this cue maker Stands way up -

I went to an advertised Cue Salesperson home last night and today. Some people have heard of( Mr. Paul Rubino)? He sent a friend a High end Cue, the salesperson hasn't but spoken a couple words with Paul. As player I hope this cue can be replicated(-George Balabuska- technics,) has a big smile on his face today. Because it was assembled with some of georges methods. Its an oak titlist conversion -with aqua ,white,green purple and pink. That is un believable,troy handed it to me from the box. I tried telling troy you look first,you touch it. he insisted I get the first look, and we passed right over a ts conversion-go figure. The reason that I'm bringing it up is( the cue maker wants to have a cue on troys website! For this act I am personally thanking Mr.Paul Rubino- for this amazing, honesty displayed by this cue maker, If half were like this we would definetly never have a dissatisfied customer.And I thank openly TS and MC for working with Troy as well. Troy well be posting the pictures, put this cue intoo a players hand- because it's totaslly harmonic vibrations , resonate about 20 seconds min. I should deelite this post because I just may call troy and never let someone touch it again, this cue come with more promensce possible. Somebody intested better call troy or get it photographed, It is a masterpiece and the price is no nowhere out of line. mark

 

[ShootingArts]

Reasonable communication is a must

Reasonable communication is a must. However, I have had customers that if I only spent the time that single customer desired talking to them I would have lost 20-25% of my work time every day! Four or five customers like that and keeping them happy on the phone would have insured I never made a chip.

Any one man or small shop has to budget time wisely. That means that time has to be set aside for dealing with customers and suppliers and time has to be set aside to turn out work or you have to be brief when dealing with phone calls during the work day. Let the phone or the work get out of balance and your business will suffer.

On the same subject, when someone drops in to visit and I keep working while I talk, I'm not being rude. There is a saying in the machine shop business, "if the chips aren't flying you're dying!" The same is true in any small shop. Sitting around visiting is pleasant but it doesn't pay the nut or put beans on the table. I can't stop and visit an hour or two any more than I can go to most people's job and them stop work for the same amount of time to visit with me.

Hu

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Hello Az Billiards, there have been a number of problems encountered by members who purchase Custom Cues on the forum lately. I think that many of these buyers have legitiment complains concerning their treatment during some of these transactions.

#NOTE# First let me say that it is not the forum owners responsibility to Police the transactions and it is also in no way their responsibility when a transaction is not completed to the satisfaction of those concerned parties.

I for one am totally sick of the behavior that is common place by some of our membership. I have been a member since 2005 and I found no better Billiards forum on the Internet. I post and support many forums, however, I have personally learned more here than on any other forum to date. My purpose for being here is to share the little that I know, and to learn as much as possible above what I love Billiards History, Cue making History, and Custom Cue making. Having said this I feel a bond with many people here on this forum, the wealth of knowledge in all the areas I have listed above is tremendous.

In my opinion the forum membership as a whole must protect each other and treat each other like an extended family. When a forum member is out of line we should contact them through Pm and explain what we see, and how we feel. There is no need for being disrespectful, because at times we all certainly show our collective back sides. But when we are wrong sometimes we do not see it without the help of others pointing out our mistakes.

When a single forum member has problems with transactions in the for sale / trade section of the forum THAT ARE LEGITIMET the forum as a whole must ban together to not only help correct the problems, but also to stop others and especially our new membership from falling into the same trap.

To all forum members, when you enter into a transaction with others here, you are doing so at your own risk. You must read between the lines, and by this I am saying do not go completely by what others say (because it may be Hype and babble that has been bought). Do not go completely by a persons Green Squares used for reputation (because they can be bought). Do not go competely by a members I-trader recommendations ( because they can also be bought). Please take the time to reseach the individual you are dealing with, by reading their posts / threads and then by contacting privately other long standing members for a recommendation on the individuals creditbility, Honesty, and integrity.

What I ask for is the input of all forum members on this subject, everyones opinion is needed, our strength is in numbers and unity.

Thanks for listening / reading and please think about what is being said here, if some one knows that something is wrong and does nothing about it they are also part of the problem.

Interesting question.

 

[pooltableproCP]

I voted for "other"

People should understand that things happen, but should expect a reasonable amount of honest communication.

 

[manwon]

Reasonable communication is a must. However, I have had customers that if I only spent the time that single customer desired talking to them I would have lost 20-25% of my work time every day! Four or five customers like that and keeping them happy on the phone would have insured I never made a chip.

Any one man or small shop has to budget time wisely. That means that time has to be set aside for dealing with customers and suppliers and time has to be set aside to turn out work or you have to be brief when dealing with phone calls during the work day. Let the phone or the work get out of balance and your business will suffer.

On the same subject, when someone drops in to visit and I keep working while I talk, I'm not being rude. There is a saying in the machine shop business, "if the chips aren't flying you're dying!" The same is true in any small shop. Sitting around visiting is pleasant but it doesn't pay the nut or put beans on the table. I can't stop and visit an hour or two any more than I can go to most people's job and them stop work for the same amount of time to visit with me.

Hu

Thanks Hu, that is a very logical approach to Business. However, recently around 10 members of the forum are having trouble contacting a cue maker. The gentleman took deposits and full payments and to date the customers have not received their cues, of which some are a year late. He refuses to contact the customers and they have no way to contact him.

Hu in my opinion, there is no excuse for this behavior, and I hope things work out.

have a good night!!!!!

 

[ShootingArts]

not quite reasonable

Craig,

Needless to say, that is less than reasonable. A word of warning to all, seemingly 99% of the time it is a mistake to pay everything up front for anything. Most people collecting all up front for some projects find themselves with the choice of working for money they have already spent or working for money that they will receive when work is complete. Human nature being what it is, most people will be more inclined to do the work that still has some reward involved for doing it pushing back getting the work out that has no further cash reward for completing.

50% up front, 25% at some completion point and 25% when ready to ship is a reasonable option. So is three thirds or fifty percent up front and fifty percent at completion. The numbers can be juggled endlessly but bottom line is that it is best to keep a carrot in front of all but the most established business people and not bad business to deal with them the same way.

I have missed or forgotten anything I have seen about the cue maker in question and although the post and poll seemed a bit pointed I didn't realize it was pointed at one particular situation.

Sometimes life deals a bad hand beyond our control and that is when communication is vital. Regardless of the situation, if someone is physically able to use the phone or type e-mail they need to get in contact with customers they owe refunds or finished products to. If it is physically impossible to right things at the moment make some arrangements or at least let people know that you intend to work out a way to deal with your obligations as soon as possible. It is as simple as that.

Hu

Thanks Hu, that is a very logical approach to Business. However, recently around 10 members of the forum are having trouble contacting a cue maker. The gentleman took deposits and full payments and to date the customers have not received their cues, of which some are a year late. He refuses to contact the customers and they have no way to contact him.

Hu in my opinion, there is no excuse for this behavior, and I hope things work out.

have a good night!!!!!

 

[manwon]

Craig,

Needless to say, that is less than reasonable. A word of warning to all, seemingly 99% of the time it is a mistake to pay everything up front for anything. Most people collecting all up front for some projects find themselves with the choice of working for money they have already spent or working for money that they will receive when work is complete. Human nature being what it is, most people will be more inclined to do the work that still has some reward involved for doing it pushing back getting the work out that has no further cash reward for completing.

50% up front, 25% at some completion point and 25% when ready to ship is a reasonable option. So is three thirds or fifty percent up front and fifty percent at completion. The numbers can be juggled endlessly but bottom line is that it is best to keep a carrot in front of all but the most established business people and not bad business to deal with them the same way.

I have missed or forgotten anything I have seen about the cue maker in question and although the post and poll seemed a bit pointed I didn't realize it was pointed at one particular situation.

Sometimes life deals a bad hand beyond our control and that is when communication is vital. Regardless of the situation, if someone is physically able to use the phone or type e-mail they need to get in contact with customers they owe refunds or finished products to. If it is physically impossible to right things at the moment make some arrangements or at least let people know that you intend to work out a way to deal with your obligations as soon as possible. It is as simple as that.

Hu

Thanks Hu, and have a great night!!

 

[ShootingArts]

Yikes!

Thanks Hu, and have a great night!!

OK, I did a little back trailing. Being the ol' hound that I am I found that there appears to have been some claims leading to additional payments and then a failure to deliver on these claims then the silence. If this is an accurate assessment of the situation, the lack of communication is only the final straw. The DA's office might indeed have an interest here.

If the cue maker has any real friends reading these forums they need to tell him to contact the people he is obligated to and try to make peace with them as I have suggested above. None of his present problems will be made better by adding civil and criminal legal issues to the equation which at least appears to be quite possible.

Have a great night yourself. Time for me to snooze awhile, think I might go hit a ball tomorrow just to see if I remember how!

Hu

 

[islandtime]

This is a pretty timely thread based on several recent issues... the results of your poll clearly show that most folks share pretty reasonable expectations when doing business with a cuemaker.

It's obvious that there are many talented and dedicated craftsmen building cues... it's a shame that there are those who seem to believe that their talents excuse them from exercising ethical business practices.

In one of the recent threads noting this very issue I was amazed to see several posters excusing the cuemaker and instead taking aim at the clients seeking answers. Seems they were saying: "chill out, it'll be worth the wait"... I'm happy to see that this poll clearly shows those folks to be in a small minority. We can only hope that cuemakers thinking that their talents permit a lack of integrity are an even smaller minority.

thanks for the post...
bob

 

[manwon]

This is a pretty timely thread based on several recent issues... the results of your poll clearly show that most folks share pretty reasonable expectations when doing business with a cuemaker.

It's obvious that there are many talented and dedicated craftsmen building cues... it's a shame that there are those who seem to believe that their talents excuse them from exercising ethical business practices.

In one of the recent threads noting this very issue I was amazed to see several posters excusing the cuemaker and instead taking aim at the clients seeking answers. Seems they were saying: "chill out, it'll be worth the wait"... I'm happy to see that this poll clearly shows those folks to be in a small minority. We can only hope that cuemakers thinking that their talents permit a lack of integrity are an even smaller minority.

thanks for the post...
bob

Bob, thanks very much for your post, I truly hope that others take the time to read. I also hope it makes a difference and helps some one else from falling into this trap.

Have a good night Bob!!!!!

 

[branpureza]

It's obvious that there are many talented and dedicated craftsmen building cues... it's a shame that there are those who seem to believe that their talents excuse them from exercising ethical business practices.

I concur... but I do think it's funny and kind of ironic that Ernie Gutierrez of Ginacue, who many think is the best cue maker in the world, is always exactly on time with my orders, responds to all my emails the same day, answers the phone every time I call him and actually sounds happy to hear my voice. I also have no reservations about paying him in full even though he only requires a 30% deposit and this is mostly due to the great communication he keeps with me. He could sell cues just as easily if he tripled his wait time and only contacted customers once a year just because he is who he is, but he's not like that... and its things like that that make him head and shoulders above the rest in my opinion.

p.s. I could never wait over a year for a sneaky pete or a jump-break from a cuemaker who wasn't a living legend.