What happened to pool?

So, let me get this straight: you would not invest in a pool hall that grossed $85,000 a month. Yes I know because they at one time were asking me to do the bookkeeping. I would say these earnings were over at a two year period. Try not to make me laugh with your gimmick analysis.

Depends on the place. Some places make that much, or more. Most don't. Not all pool rooms are the same. I know of a couple that are really hot places. Very busy, very fun. Lot of people spending a lot of money in them. Even in this awful economy. Of course, the owner of one that I know is excellent at what he does, keeps everyone happy. Tough to do, but some guys got the talent for business, others don't. It shows on the bottom line.

Overall though, I would say that $85K gross a month is the exception, not the rule for pool rooms in America. We're not talking big time places like Amsterdam Billiards.
 
So, let me get this straight: you would not invest in a pool hall that grossed $85,000 a month. Yes I know because they at one time were asking me to do the bookkeeping. I would say these earnings were over at a two year period. Try not to make me laugh with your gimmick analysis.
Maybe you are just describing a successful business. Perhaps they should take out the pool tables and put in stripper poles and complete the metamorphoses. The title of this thread is "What happened to pool" and it sounds like you answered it. Pool is dead and without gimmicks and having to shows it's a$$ a pool room can't make any money, at least not with pool as the central draw.

Not that long ago I went into a pool room I had not been in in a long time. When I walked in all the tables were gone and there was a bunch of restaurant tables and booths. The pool room had been taken over by the bar next door and they were going to have the two business augment each other and they did and were very busy. What happened was the restaurant portion on the bar began to grow and they had to phase out the pool tables because they needed the room for seating. It looked like the place was doing very well but the pool is gone.
 
Most things have been mentioned, I guess. I think one big thing is that there is no "instant gratification" in pool, it takes too much time {and now, money} to learn the game to where you can even play at a decent amateur level. When we were back in NYS to visit in March there were no young players in either of the rooms we visited and I understand they are few and far between. One place we visited had 16 guys in it at the time, two had jobs and the rest were retired or, like me, on Disability. One place has twenty-some tables and I don't know how they can afford to stay open.


It's a shame that the biggest force in amateur and entry level pool is the APA. They've done a lot to hurt pool long term. Contrary to what is claimed which is that they've done a lot because they are the largest league ever.

My reasoning for this is simple...without beginner level leagues, newbies to the game have no competitive or fun way to participate without getting crushed for a long time. That's just how it is. Pool has a learning curve that takes years. Makes sense, but there's more to it.


Had the BCAPL or whatever other league other than the APA been dominant, pool would be in a better place. The APA may be the biggest, but they also taint pool with the unfavorable culture of pool the APA promotes. That sleazy, bar style pool that is almost as focused on getting drunk as it is on pool. The idiotic rules. The overly-exploiting format and system. It's just bad all around.


Thousands upon thousands have joined the APA. But do they stay? Aha! The APA's numbers are down, and for a good reason. Over the years I've seen so many players do the APA thing, get sick of it, and then leave in disgust. However, people who started in BCA or a similar type league system tend to stick with it for a long time. There are many reasons for this, which are beyond the scope of this thread.


The BCA has a better "culture" of pool within it. It's more sportsmanlike, it's more civilized, it's just higher class all around. It's a better example of pool for newbies. People can still drink and have a good time. Also, it doesn't punish higher skilled players driving them out. There's better integration between beginners and skilled players, meaning there's more interaction and players develop better and faster. You need mentors and you need to be around good pool to get good. It doesn't exploit and downright cheat so many players and teams by the inherent structure of the league.


The APA isn't the biggest because they're the best for pool. They're the biggest because they're the best at selling what they've got and spreading like a cancer across the land. The best at filling their own pockets with their players err, I mean customers money. Their franchise system is effective, and LO's have many times used bullying tactics to harm competing leagues and try and monopolize an area.

They have huge turn around with so many people joining, but also quitting, and quitting for good. The corruption, the BS, the sleaze all turns off a lot of people from pool. Why aren't those people ever considered? Instead, there is nothing by endless praise for the APA with their "300,000" members. These players aren't skilled enough to enjoy higher level pool and open tournaments, but don't want to stay with the APA. What do they do? They go golfing or something.


Anyway, by being one of the biggest entry points of pool for many beginners, the APA sets tens of thousands of players in the wrong direction, turning them away from perhaps a lifetime of playing pool, toward being players who get sick of the novelty because that league sucks. First impressions make a big difference. The APA is just plain ugly.


That's how it hurts pool long term.
 
Different name, same old song...

Ok, have it your . Have the APA disappear tomorrow. Do you honestly think pool will be better for it? Ok, I know that you will, bolo cheese, but for the rest of the forum....

And so now the thread will turn into how the APA is what is wrong with pool, despite being the single biggest reason pool is even played at all in many places.

I guess I'm surprised it took this long to invoke the APA, but Bolo Ocho never disappoints
 
If not for The APA, Pool would be gasping for air, spitting up blood and staggering down an alley to die in the gutter. That league keeps pool in the common man's grasp. (At least in the US)

Face the facts. Not everyone who plays pool desires to be the best. Some just enjoy being with their friends and getting out on a Wednesday night. Not everyone has 5-6 hours a day after they work 8 to go practice at being a pro. They just want a place to go bang some balls around.

There is not a single reason why pool is what it is, or is not. Its all relative.

Just keep playing and being a good steward of the sport and it will continue to be around. It will never have a Super Bowl or World Cup event but that crap really does not matter anyway. I play for me. I win for me. I will continue to play because it was the first game I ever loved.

I love Pool!
 
It is more than just one thing..... But one of the top reasons is that pool and pool players are selfish, they have a "win at all costs" attitude. Before the bashing begins please let me explain, and preface it by saying not ALL, but the majority applies, and the perception of the majority applies.

Tournament examples: a standard player won't enter if he/she sees more than one Master player entering. An open player won't enter if he/she sees 6 or more Master players or a Grand Master at the event. They feel if they can't cash why enter.

League examples: In order to secure a win, a team lurks in the grey area of the rules and has a stacked team of potential Master players just to secure a first place spot in a weekly league. BCA Nationals.... The way to win is to have a 1 master and 4 players that should be masters.

So point being.... If weaker players don't want to test themselves and play up. And stronger players don't want to test themselves and play up......... What shot do we have to EVER get new players involved. And with all the "cheating", lack of integrity, and sand-bagging why would anyone want to get their kids involved?! And without NEW blood at all levels, there isn't enough players to go around, ie... Lack of a pro tour.

Mike
 
It is a lot more popular now than it was when I was coming up in the 80s
and 90s. Now we have streams and the internet. people are way more
informed now than 20 years ago.
 
It is a lot more popular now than it was when I was coming up in the 80s
and 90s. Now we have streams and the internet. people are way more
informed now than 20 years ago.

Yes, but believe me, there are less, many less people playing now than then.
 
I understand this is a broad question.

But really, what the heck happened? I am 27 years old and I can't seem to get enough of the game, I mean, I love the game... period.

I can not tell you how many videos I've watched of tournaments back before I was born and in my infant years that were happening and there was not a damn seat left in the room, even standing room was scarce in most of these live events.

I talked with an older friend of mine who has been in the bar business for many years. He said it used to be you could run into a snooker table or 9 foot table in the mid-west in almost every single town town you drove through, even the BFE towns with population 19 had a snooker table in there towns dining hall.

What the HELL happened?!?

As has been perhaps mentioned....

1) everybody got a credit card
2) everybody got a playstation
3) everyone joined a league
4) players like ronnie allen and keith mcready stopped playing as much
5) there became a point in the US where there was almost no incentive to play good pool
6) chicks stopped jumping on the guys that could run out, in favor of a much more feminine and groomed breed of "man"
 
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Sorry Grilled Cheese, I mean Bolo Ocho...but you just don't understand, nor ever will comprehend the APA. Your information may be your opinion, but it certainly isn't accurate...and it is misleading (at best) to the uninformed. It's too bad that you had to make your post a bunch of "bash the APA" BS. Considering your posting history, I'm not surprised.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

It's a shame that the biggest force in amateur and entry level pool is the APA. They've done a lot to hurt pool long term. Contrary to what is claimed which is that they've done a lot because they are the largest league ever.

My reasoning for this is simple...without beginner level leagues, newbies to the game have no competitive or fun way to participate without getting crushed for a long time. That's just how it is. Pool has a learning curve that takes years. Makes sense, but there's more to it.


Had the BCAPL or whatever other league other than the APA been dominant, pool would be in a better place. The APA may be the biggest, but they also taint pool with the unfavorable culture of pool the APA promotes. That sleazy, bar style pool that is almost as focused on getting drunk as it is on pool. The idiotic rules. The overly-exploiting format and system. It's just bad all around.


Thousands upon thousands have joined the APA. But do they stay? Aha! The APA's numbers are down, and for a good reason. Over the years I've seen so many players do the APA thing, get sick of it, and then leave in disgust. However, people who started in BCA or a similar type league system tend to stick with it for a long time. There are many reasons for this, which are beyond the scope of this thread.


The BCA has a better "culture" of pool within it. It's more sportsmanlike, it's more civilized, it's just higher class all around. It's a better example of pool for newbies. People can still drink and have a good time. Also, it doesn't punish higher skilled players driving them out. There's better integration between beginners and skilled players, meaning there's more interaction and players develop better and faster. You need mentors and you need to be around good pool to get good. It doesn't exploit and downright cheat so many players and teams by the inherent structure of the league.


The APA isn't the biggest because they're the best for pool. They're the biggest because they're the best at selling what they've got and spreading like a cancer across the land. The best at filling their own pockets with their players err, I mean customers money. Their franchise system is effective, and LO's have many times used bullying tactics to harm competing leagues and try and monopolize an area.

They have huge turn around with so many people joining, but also quitting, and quitting for good. The corruption, the BS, the sleaze all turns off a lot of people from pool. Why aren't those people ever considered? Instead, there is nothing by endless praise for the APA with their "300,000" members. These players aren't skilled enough to enjoy higher level pool and open tournaments, but don't want to stay with the APA. What do they do? They go golfing or something.


Anyway, by being one of the biggest entry points of pool for many beginners, the APA sets tens of thousands of players in the wrong direction, turning them away from perhaps a lifetime of playing pool, toward being players who get sick of the novelty because that league sucks. First impressions make a big difference. The APA is just plain ugly.


That's how it hurts pool long term.
 
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After reading through this thread two things seem to come to mind. Pool is declining for multiple reasons, and pool will continue to decline... I do agree with one point about leagues being a big reason that pool is still around. Without organizations like the APA, BCA, ACS, and all the others I think pool would just about disappear. As many owners have already said there are very few young people interested in pool and attracting them is difficult to say the least. There have been many times when I am out playing pool and I look around and if there are folks under 25 it's unusual.. Guess I should be happy to have anyplace to go and play some pool, have a beer and chat with some nice folks, I'll be sad to see that end......
 
Modest of you not to point out the obvious answer. :D

America doesn't have British (or Charlie Williams' - I couldn't resist, he's Korean, you know) management ability and drive to organize,create, and promote.:D

America claims the game, but major international tournaments aren't run by Americans.

http://www.matchroomsport.com/sports/pool/history.htm


With all due respect, this doesn't explain anything because if it did then Matchroom would have major TV contracts for live coverage of its events in the US.

The game just doesn't sell in the US, even if a Brit is promoting it.
 
Well, my intent wasn't to single out the APA. Only to add it to the list of negative things to have happened to pool.

Is the APA good for some? Sure. But I'm looking at the big picture. Long term, it's not good for pool. The short sighted view is to look at the high membership. Well, if that was the case - with all those members, why isn't pool booming? That large membership isn't translating into support for pool as a whole.


Here's perfect example of why. The vast majority of APA players have no clue whatsoever who SVB is. They don't know who Efren is. Most have no clue there's a Mosconi Cup. The level of ignorance about pro pool, the players, the tournaments and such is extreme in the APA. I know, because I've talked to countless APA league players. I like to reference the pros when discussing something about the game, like for example "I saw Efren kick it in like this...." always a blank stare. They don't know who I'm talking about. Or I bring up some great head to head match, like SVB vs. Pagulayan. Again, no clue who either is, nor what they play or do. This happens the majority of times. Even among higher level players. With SL7's, there's about a 1/3 chance they'll know. Surprising even among them, how few follow pool.


Now, not knowing who is who in pro pool isn't in and of itself bad for pool. But it is indicative of what kind of players the APA has. These are not people who are going to tune in and watch the pros on TV, which many of you keep citing over and over will be the salvation for pool. The day when pool gets good ratings. How about the 500,000 APA members tuning in...that would help ratings? I'm sure it would. But they don't. Why doesn't the APA tell its entire membership to tune in to pool events on TV? Why doesn't the APA sponsor just one major televised pro tournament and promote it to all their members and leagues? They don't. They have the means to do it.


I think the only player some of the APA masses can name is Jeanette Lee because she is printed all over the APA magazine mailed out to each member. And, not even all APA members can name her or know who she is.


It would have been better if an alternative to the APA had been bigger. Particularly an alternative that better educates players, integrates high to low level players etcetera. So they can learn, and expand into pool beyond being a bar-box banger. Make them fans of professional pool. And much more. Expose them to how pool can be and should be.

The environment and culture of the APA is such that it fails to expose the players to something better. In fact, I'm willing to bet the APA likes it that way. They like their formula and will stick to it. I don't think they want their players learning too much, or seeing much else. Because if they did, they'd move on to better things and other areas of the pool world. They might stray. You can even detect a bit of that in their literature. The way they promote and portray themselves is as if they are the pool world, and there's nothing else. The APA is not good for pool. The APA is only good for the APA. That's their right, but please don't tell me they're good for pool as a whole.


Call me an APA basher, I don't care. I tell the truth as I see it. I don't fall in line with the "group think" and pretend somethings to be true when they are not.


Who's vision was it to use amateur leagues to subsidize a pro tour? Was it Griffin of the BCAPL? At first I thought that was utterly absurd. But, compared to the monopolistic and selfish APA that doesn't give a damn about pool, and the rest of the pool world with their hair brained ideas...that idea makes a lot of good sense.


If the belief is that pool needs to have money in the pro ranks and TV time, then it has to happen somehow. At the same time, there's a belief that there needs to be a strong amateur league that brings players into the sport. Well, the APA brings them in, but only for the APA and nothing else. How about a league that brings in players, and instead is enthusiastic and open to the idea of exposing the players to more than just that league itself?

A good amateur league is one that is fully integrated into the pool world, and one that not only brings in players, but brings them in with the intent and hope to make them life long fans of pool as a whole. Not just league bangers. Pool isn't going to grow that way.


So all this talk about growing pool....how about getting the pool players we ALREADY have, to start following, watching and supporting pro pool and pool as a whole? That would be a good start. It's great and all to bring in players, but it doesn't help if you bring in a million or ten million of them if they aren't the kind of pool fans we are here on this board. People who watch pro pool, support it, buy lots of pool related gear etcetera etcetera.
 
I suppose it depends on what you mean by "good for pool". Perhaps leagues don't do much for the pro game but I believe there are quite a few room owners who would tell you that leagues are very good for them, maybe vital even. And if leagues helps support rooms and rooms provide a place to play for other players...then in that aspect they are good for pool. And this doesn't even include the hundreds of thousands of cues and cases that have been purchased by league players.
 
It's simple

Pool "enthusiasts" include broke dick, scum sucking, low life, lying, thieving cheating, misfit bums in ratios disproportionately high to the general public. And everyone knows it, even kids. What the kids don't realize is they are so delusional and lazy that they will never accomplish a real skill even bordering on the one's these folks have on the table. It's just too sad, especially for pool.
 
pool "enthusiasts" include broke dick, scum sucking, low life, lying, thieving cheating, misfit bums in ratios disproportionately high to the general public. And everyone knows it, even kids. What the kids don't realize is they are so delusional and lazy that they will never accomplish a real skill even bordering on the one's these folks have on the table. It's just too sad, especially for pool.

f i r s t !!!!!!!

Welcome to the neighborhood!
 
ironman...You live in TX and you don't even know the story behind Earl's million-dollar run? Earl DID get paid (he just didn't get the full million). The insurance company settled with CJ for $650K. Earl got $300K, CJ got back his $50K (that he paid Earl for the first year's annuity payment), and the lawyers got the other $300K. You should probably amend your comment about promoters to "some promoters". Your comment paints all pool promoters in a bad light.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Well that is not the sorty I got from CJ last month, but whatever. he didn't get what he was supposed to or when he was supposed to.
No! I'll amend nothing! Anyone with the IQ of a carrot could understand the meaning anyhow!
 
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