What I believe is the most pure form of pool

Danny Harriman

One of the best in 14.1
Silver Member
This is a subject I have been thinking about much as of late. I believe that full rack bank is # 1 for the following reasons - every ball must go clean and their is not much of any kind of politics with the rack (as in short rack bank). The two other games are the 14.1 challenge and the one pocket challenge, unfortunatley as I have learned if you compete against another opponent in either of these two disciplines the rack mechanics can be and usually are a major factor on the outcome of match play. Take example the 14.1 tournament match play, sometimes it is difficult to get the rack frozen due to conditions, which means at a high level of play the player who wins the lag is a strong favorite to get the first offensive shot. Even if the rack has been tapped after a few matches the rack can be changed with a little help, where as in the 14.1 challenge where the player receives say ten ball in hand break shots the rack does not really matter too much. Of course three cushion is the best game of all in my opinion, the rack mechanics probably do not like three cushion billiards or the 14.1 challenge in my view. Any thoughts?
 

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Gold Member
Silver Member
This is a subject I have been thinking about much as of late. I believe that full rack bank is # 1 for the following reasons - every ball must go clean and their is not much of any kind of politics with the rack (as in short rack bank). The two other games are the 14.1 challenge and the one pocket challenge, unfortunatley as I have learned if you compete against another opponent in either of these two disciplines the rack mechanics can be and usually are a major factor on the outcome of match play. Take example the 14.1 tournament match play, sometimes it is difficult to get the rack frozen due to conditions, which means at a high level of play the player who wins the lag is a strong favorite to get the first offensive shot. Even if the rack has been tapped after a few matches the rack can be changed with a little help, where as in the 14.1 challenge where the player receives say ten ball in hand break shots the rack does not really matter too much. Of course three cushion is the best game of all in my opinion, the rack mechanics probably do not like three cushion billiards or the 14.1 challenge in my view. Any thoughts?

I believe 10 ball is the best rotation game and the best contest. The TAR matches have given us a clear and precise view of who are the best money players too. 10 ball with a Magic Rack gives each player a perfect rack. Their success with it is a skill.

Bank pool is a specialty game. Not everybody plays it. Straight pool is, unfortunately, DOA. I admire players who can play these games well, but they are specialty games in 2012.
 
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Danny Harriman

One of the best in 14.1
Silver Member
I believe 10 ball is the best rotation game and the best contest. The TAR matches have given us a clear and precise view of who are the best money players too. 10 ball with a Magic Rack gives each player a perfect rack. Their success with it is a skill.

Bank pool is a specialty game. Not everybody plays it. Straight pool is, unfortunately, DOA. I admire players who can play these games well, but they are specialty games in 2012.

I agree with most of the assesments here and yes 10 ball with the magic rack is a great game indeed, by pure I mean what if you don't have a magic rack and in bank pool all banks must be clean. You see I call the magic rack a specialty rack, where as in the 14.1 challenge a normal rack will do fine. I have competed with the magic rack and I like it, sometimes it cannot be removed when needed. Snooker is in my view a form of pocket billiards and yes the rack is not a factor to consider in relation to ten ball or the other disciplines of pocket billiards.
 

Danny Harriman

One of the best in 14.1
Silver Member
Tar has helped promote pool

I would like to take this oppurtunity to apolagize to Justin from TAR for some of the comments I have made directed towards him here on this forum, the match between JS and myself was to say the least interesting. I was honored to have been invited to compete even though there was a communication slip between Justin and myself for the 3rd match. That having been said I guess I will believe him in that I would have been offered the same monetary amount to play the 3rd match that Justin said he raised for JS when JS turned down his offer. I would also offer my condolences to the TAR crew, Big Chad had plenty of heart and I know he loved pool as I believe Justin does also. So again thanks to Duff (Side Pockets - Lees Summitt, MO), Scott Edwards,(Lees Summitt,MO) and all of the TAR crew.

Sincerley, Danny Harriman
 
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John Brumback

New member
Silver Member
I agree.It's the one pool game to where you could really just throw the rack away.I don't even check the rack when playing full rack banks.They can just throw em up there however they want when I'm breaking.It's such a relief to not have to worry about getting the balls to rack perfect everytime and all that crap.It's sad when the game comes down to a racking and breaking contest.Think I'll run one at the next county fair.
John B.
 

jalapus logan

be all. and supports it to
Silver Member
I agree.It's the one pool game to where you could really just throw the rack away.I don't even check the rack when playing full rack banks.They can just throw em up there however they want when I'm breaking.It's such a relief to not have to worry about getting the balls to rack perfect everytime and all that crap.It's sad when the game comes down to a racking and breaking contest.Think I'll run one at the next county fair.
John B.

Do not listen to this fella, he is just a banger and knows not what he speaks of...JK- he he he.

I think that ten ball with a bucket instead of a rack would be a good game. You know, just throw the balls in a five gallon bucket and then dump tham out into the center of the table and the try to run'em out. That's what I'm talking about...
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Do not listen to this fella, he is just a banger and knows not what he speaks of...JK- he he he.

I think that ten ball with a bucket instead of a rack would be a good game. You know, just throw the balls in a five gallon bucket and then dump tham out into the center of the table and the try to run'em out. That's what I'm talking about...

As soon as they implemented that there would be guys trying to figure out how to rig the bucket.

One rule I'd like to see them implement is no touching the balls with your hands after the rack is removed. There is one well known player who manipulates the one ball on every rack if the game is rack your own.
 

Lonestar_jim

Two & Out
Silver Member
new thread ?

I would like to take this oppurtunity to apolagize to Justin from TAR for some of the comments I have made directed towards him here on this forum...

Sincerley, Danny Harriman

I hope they will see this (and others too). Cool apology :thumbup::thumbup:
 

8pack

They call me 2 county !
Silver Member
This is a subject I have been thinking about much as of late. I believe that full rack bank is # 1 for the following reasons - every ball must go clean and their is not much of any kind of politics with the rack (as in short rack bank). The two other games are the 14.1 challenge and the one pocket challenge, unfortunatley as I have learned if you compete against another opponent in either of these two disciplines the rack mechanics can be and usually are a major factor on the outcome of match play. Take example the 14.1 tournament match play, sometimes it is difficult to get the rack frozen due to conditions, which means at a high level of play the player who wins the lag is a strong favorite to get the first offensive shot. Even if the rack has been tapped after a few matches the rack can be changed with a little help, where as in the 14.1 challenge where the player receives say ten ball in hand break shots the rack does not really matter too much. Of course three cushion is the best game of all in my opinion, the rack mechanics probably do not like three cushion billiards or the 14.1 challenge in my view. Any thoughts?

What do mean by pure? A game no one can take advantage of?
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
...One rule I'd like to see them implement is no touching the balls with your hands after the rack is removed. There is one well known player who manipulates the one ball on every rack if the game is rack your own.

But most good racks are large enough that "manipulation" of the 1-ball can also be done before the rack is lifted. Just slide the rack forward slightly, finger the 1-ball, then lift the rack.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
To run all 15 balls in order is a major accomplishment

I would say, as a player's opinion of all things considered Rotation is the most "pure" game.

I grew up playing rotation and so did Efren, Bustemante, and ALL Filipinos from what I'm told. I would venture to guess that many of the past and some present champions also grew up playing rotation as well.

To run all 15 balls in order is a major accomplishment and if you can "beat the ghost" playing rotation, that is the highest speed possible. IMHO
 

Quesports

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would say, as a player's opinion of all things considered Rotation is the most "pure" game.

I grew up playing rotation and so did Efren, Bustemante, and ALL Filipinos from what I'm told. I would venture to guess that many of the past and some present champions also grew up playing rotation as well.

To run all 15 balls in order is a major accomplishment and if you can "beat the ghost" playing rotation, that is the highest speed possible. IMHO

Hi CJ, I'm curious when you practice 15 ball rotation with the ghost, do you take ball in hand after the break or just play it as it lies?
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
I would say, as a player's opinion of all things considered Rotation is the most "pure" game.

I grew up playing rotation and so did Efren, Bustemante, and ALL Filipinos from what I'm told. I would venture to guess that many of the past and some present champions also grew up playing rotation as well.

To run all 15 balls in order is a major accomplishment and if you can "beat the ghost" playing rotation, that is the highest speed possible. IMHO

CJ:

I would agree to a small point. I say, "small," because running all 15 balls in rotation is certainly an achievement. It would mean you really have the cue ball on a string.

However, the parts NOT covered by the "small" part of my agreement would be the following:

1. Virtually all forms of Rotation unfortunately have slop bolted to their hip. In fact, *any* rotation game -- including 10-ball (which was specifically resurrected by the WPA to address the slop issue) -- is played with Texas Express / slop rules. (10-ball, in some parts of the country, is actually played T.E. -- and on *bar tables* no less.) There is not one version of Rotation game where it's universally understood to be played with call-shot rules. You'll always find someone, somewhere, playing that very same rotation game with slop rules. Courteous opponents will raise their hand to you in apology if they slop a ball in (or make it in a pocket other than the one intended), but they still maintain control of the table.

2. Non-rotation games, like bank pool, 14.1, and to a mostly-applicable extent, 8-ball ("mostly applicable" to mean the rest of the world, vs. what the APA leagues play 8-ball), are played call-shot.

3. Bank pool has the additional caveat that the shot must go in "clean" -- meaning, the banked ball cannot carom off of a ball into a pocket, or be combo'ed.

4. Rack mechanics. In any form of rotation pool, the obvious underpinning thrust of the game is not to just pocket a ball on the break, but more importantly, to get a shot on the lowest-numbered ball on the table. It behooves the rotation player to be a rack mechanic -- finagling the rack and using break techniques to ensure both of these things happen. You are freed from that crap with true pattern games like 14.1, bank pool, and 8-ball. Short-rack banks to a lesser extent has some rack finagling going on (merely to ensure a ball goes in -- using 9-ball breaking techniques to wire those wing balls to the corner pockets), but nothing like rotation games. Full-rack banks just about removes this completely (except for 8-ball breaking techniques, which noone would have a problem with anyway).

In full-rack banks -- with the congestion of all 15-balls on the table -- that is quite a feat to bank 8 and out with most of the banking lanes blocked. Safeties are a bit easier than short-rack banks, obviously, so a congested / clustered table is rife with safety play in full-rack banks.

While I love to watch the likes of Efren, Bustamante, Alcano, etc. play full-rack rotation, I get even greater joy watching a full-rack bank pool game played by the banks-equivalent caliber of player (e.g. Brumback, Daulton, Gregg, etc.). Here, you have something that rotation play will NEVER have -- patterns dictated by the player, not by the numbers on the balls. This lights-up an additional part of the brain that is dormant in your average rotation player.

-Sean
 
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Paul8ball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree with Danny and John, full rack bank is the most pure from of pool. There is no luck involved and the rack is irrelevant. I think that all forms of challenge pool are better than their ordinary counterparts. Like challenge 14.1, each player gets the same number of opportunities at the table. It is a little like golf or bowling, you are competing against an absolute standard (perfect score). Then you can do a tournament where you have to make the cut , like golf, to get to the money. This is like automatic seeding, insuring that the best players are in the tournament at the end. Corey Deuel had a tournament in Florida a few years ago where you got a point for winning a game plus a point for a break and run. Then he had a cut line to get to the money. These formats keep all of the players trying their hardest all of the time.

FYI, full rack bank is normally played 8 to 7. So, nothing needs to be spotted after the break.
 
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