What If Fundamentals Aren't That Important After All?

dorabelle said:
It would be interesting if you did take all the top players and fix all their "flaws" and see if that makes them even better. Could you imagine some of these guys. I guess the question would be what do yo think the proper fundamentals are. That would be fun to talk about.
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I have been watching videos lately and noticed a few things. They basically all hold the cue with the same bridge length (regular shaft different than pred shaft). and they all finish close to the same place on the follow.

Regular shaft they hold just ahead of middle shaft and finish the stroke near the middle and predator shaft players seem to have a little longer bridge finishing the stroke around 3/4 down shaft. the regular shaft players have a shorter follow after CB contact than predator players.

I haven't watched enough to say a 100% do this, but all 10 that I compared did.
 
There is really only one fundamental you need to master...."natural" consistency...

IMO....the only thing you can truely control regarding fundamentals is the "static" fundamentals.....Grip, Stance, Posture, Alignment.

Change any of those 4 and it will change the way you "naturally" stroke the ball....If you try and force the way you stroke the ball...it will break down under pressure.....usually at the worst possible time...:wink:

Even the dreaded before impact elbow drop....IMO can be eliminated by adjusting the 4 static fundamentals.
 
No matter what type of motion your cue has, i.e. a windmill stroke, a piston stroke, or a pendulum, you will improve as long as you do it the same way every time. If you keep changing up and going from a pendulum to a windmill for example, it's very hard to improve because you can't build muscle memory.

Even someone with a left or right swipe in their cueing action can learn to pocket balls that way, so long as they do it that way every time. They will eventually learn to line up, and learn the timing to pocket the ball with that swiping motion. Of course having perfect fundamentals shortens the learning curve, but my point is you can improve so long as whatever habits you have are done the exact same way every time.
 
Philthepockets said:
But the list of great players with good fundamentals is much longer. :p
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thats right....Look at Johnny Archer one of the most consistent players of the past 30 years and check out his fundamentals....you don't get any better than Johnny for consistency at the highest level.

You quoted the inner game of tennis about the two diff minds and such.....working fundamentals and incorporating them as a natural part of your game is not the same as talking to yourself and telling yourself "OK KEEP YOUR WRIST STRAIGHT"....they are fundamental, you pratice it, you perfect it, it becomes habit/natural and is now a FUNDAMENTAL ELEMENT OF YOUR GAME!!!

Even Keith had excellent fundamentals to a degree, screw his crooked arm...have you ever seen his acceleration and follow through and cue tip placement with that crooked arm? His stroke was just kicked off normal axis since he started playing so young...but that was natural to him and how he could deliver a STRAIGHT STROKE!

thats all i have to say about that,
-Grey Ghost-
 
If I understand the OP, I think the point is that after a certain level of progress you start refining what style you have rather than always re-molding, correct?

If so I think that may be true a certain degree, if your always changing what you are doing it's tough to make your actions automatic. But I think regardless of what level you are at, it's worth evaluating your mechanics from to time to time to see if any bad habits have creeped in.

But as for what point in the development process you start refining, I wouldn't say it would be any earlier than an A player, perhaps even further along. Players at lower levels than that often have too many mechanical flaws to just "work with" imo. Not the least of them being alignement.
 
JarnoV you are a BRAVE man for going against the "Church of the I can make you an A++ player" and I admire your guts (Let hope they let you keep them on the inside of your body where they belong) but you bring up a Fantastic point. You have obviously turned a page in your pool playing life and found out that IF YOU CAN SEE AND IF YOU CAN SHOOT STRAIGHT then you can play this game REAL GOOD and fundamental be DAMMED. One look at JesseAllred's (1 handed behind the back 9 BALL RUN OUT!!!) videos will answer the question of how important fundamentals are. Find a stance that your are comfortable in, see your Target (there are only a handful of them), choose the stroke that you need to get the best shape on the next ball, shoot straight and hit the target. End of discussion. Thank you for saying what those who already know will not say.
 
JarnoV said:
[...]

Thoughts, disagreements?
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Interesting topic.

This is kind of a way-off-topic analogy. There is a short video I saw recently about research into what really motivates people to perform, (in the workplace, etc). Many people think and assume the answer is money. It turns out that's not true. A focus on money is actually counterproductive. Instead it is things like autonomy, mastery, and purpose.

Maybe fundamentals at pool play the same role as does money for motivating people at work. In particular there has to be enough of it to take the issue of it off the table.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

Also, I see a person learning to play over time as being an evolutionary process in which they are slowly optimizing performance by tweaking several variables.

What instruction on fundamentals does, imo, is like going back to an evolving species millions of years ago and encouraging the development of an opposable thumb. That is, encourage them to get on an optimization landscape that ultimately has a higher maximum
 
You can run rack up on rack standing on your head and stroking the cue with your butt cheeks as long as that cue is headed in a straight line when it hits the ball. The ball doesn't know if you are standing on one foot or shooting behind your back etc... so in a sense, no you don't need the fundamentals. BUT, read that again *BUT* when someone is new to the game they are going to get to goals a lot quicker and show much more improvement if they go by the text book fundamentals. Having those fundamentals will always give you a spot to return to when you are out of stroke etc... It's as simple as that.
MULLY
 
To me the key to a good stroke is finding one that works for you and being able to repeat it on every shot.

Pool and baseball are similar in that regard. If you go to a major league baseball game every batter has his own unique stance in the batters box and they are all trying to do the same thing, hit a pitched ball.
 
Mike Page:
encourage them to get on an optimization landscape that ultimately has a higher maximum
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Well put, Mike (I'm not surprised).

And I think it's in line with JarnoV's proposition, which I interpret as "Classic Fundamentals are an overview sketch, not a detailed blueprint; don't let rigid fundamentalism get in the way of your brain/body's natural ability to learn".

pj
chgo
 
Mechanics and Fundamentals vs. "It Factor"

real bartram said:
good fundamentals help a lot under the heat.
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poolhustler said:
Keith McCready might disagree with you...
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I'm gonna agree with Bartram (Chris) on this point. With good, solid fundamentals, a player is far less likely to get off to a slow start, less likely to "squinch" and miss ... Certainly this helps under the "heat".
To acheive the same (or at least very similar) results without rock-solid mechanics, a player has to be impervious to the mental onslaught.

I'd openly say that tournament play where early mistakes cost so much, either school of thought works well, but good fundamentals pay off on more days than less solid fundamentals.
Now, grinding for the cash could be a different story if the player has deep enough pockets and enough time to unleash the highest gear. McCready was absolutely infamous for back-room play, his "highest" gear unmatched. In tournament play he has often been a slow starter or even a win-from-behind prospect.

Ultimately, end-results justify the means in pool.
A player who can "do more with less" has an advantage.

Has anyone noticed how certain players move the white with so much less effort than others (I'll refer to Corey, Buddy, Jeremy Jones for this...)?
I'm sure that conversely we watch others whose concentration, focus, knowledge and desire to win either enhance their performance or more than make up for minor shortcomings in fundamentals. Using McCready in his prime as a model for this, once he was loose but still focused, no one had to like it (and this was often with weight).

-Ivan
 
Fundamentals are what you use to get in stroke.

I always ask my students one question before we start...

Do you want to be the best in the world, or just have fun playing pool, and not feel like you are lost?

Not one person has ever answered "I want to be a world champion"...so this being said fundamentals are a choice to make. If you would like to someday be the very best player in the world then the place to start is making sure you can deliver the exact same stroke time after time. This takes a good solid stance, grip, bridge, and line of sight, no one is perfect (and no one is the same), but no top player will say just stand straight up, and hip shot everything.
 
I believe no matter what everyone has to have the same fundamentals so it is very important. Everybody has different strokes and different stance but at the end of the day cue has to go out straight no matter what. Mika, Efran, Shane their final stroke through the cue ball is the same straight line even though their strokes are different. The difference between players that improves and players that doesn't improve IMHO is good habbits vs bad habbits which comes down to the fundamentals.
 
Fundamentals:

1: pocket the object ball or execute a perfect safety
2: leave the cue ball positioned where you desire following the shot
3: achieve 1 and 2 in any way you are comfortable with doing
 
Underclocked said:
Fundamentals:

1: pocket the object ball or execute a perfect safety
2: leave the cue ball positioned where you desire following the shot
3: achieve 1 and 2 in any way you are comfortable with doing
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That sounds nice, but fundamentals are for learning. How do you suggest somebody learn to do this?

pj
chgo
 
Programming for Results:

I spent over 25 years attempting to improve my martial arts techniques.
For years at three different schools of martial arts, mostly Japanese, I had a difficult time with the rigid repetitive practice of the techniques. It was through the basic fundamentals that I prepared myself to react instinctively and to move on to the next plateau. Once the fundamentals are mastered, variances in the approach to succeed are possible.

I have spent about 50 years on the pool table. At about 18 years old I was fortunate to be taught by an amazing talent. His billiard techniques were very rigid and basic not unlike the martial arts. Within a year or so my game and especially my stroke improved dramatically. At first I was uncomfortable, but persisted and soon my hand eye coordination was drastically better. It was freaky how natural my game became. I could immediately know where to place my feet in relation to the shot with no adjustment. I felt like my mind was programmed. From this point on the learning process progressed so fast.

My last Sensei knew the day it became clear to me. He understood the years of practicing the proper fundamentals led to this point. He told me that now he could open my head and fill it with information. Most individuals hit the wall and will never understand what it takes to get to the next level. Inconsistency and bad habits in practice lead to a lack of confidence when put to the test.
 
Ok, let's talk a little about biomechanics. Some good players wiggle the tip in their warm-up strokes. My wife does this, too. Now maybe I should "correct" her--or maybe I shouldn't. In golf, players waggle (http://www.golfproductnews.com/golf-swing-waggle/). It helps them loosen up, and refines their accuracy through feedback. Good batters do something similar. Couldn't that be what's happening for my wife and the other wiggling players who can give her the last 5? If so, it could be a new fundamental. I don't know, and no one else does either--because nobody has studied it.

Before the 60's everybody was pretty sure they understood all the fundamentals of the high jump, and then along comes Dick Fosbury with his flop (http://www.coachr.org/rotation.htm) and suddenly people are jumping higher.

The biomechanics of pool is in its infancy, and still has a long way to go.
 
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Which is exactly why we teach our students to develop THEIR perfect stroke process...not trying to copy our own. There are certain elements that are crucial to that development...the first being the training rules...slow motion, stop action, and verbalization. You also have to have something to follow...a list if you will (we call them preshot routines). The student creates that list (usually with the help of the instructor), and then practices it the right way, for a long enough period of time, to achieve a result, where the 'unconscious' mind will be able to trigger the body to complete the perfect process...most especially under pressure.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Bugz said:
Here is the best post I've seen on the subject. I hate teachers that want students to adopt their 'style'. Just give some pointers and explain that these help build talent or will give you something to fall back on when the heat is turned up.
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