What's fair/expected for putting someone in a tournament?

M

MisspentYouth

Banned
I'm thinking of putting a pro into international events. They wanted flight, hotel, and entry fee, which is cool by me. Nothing else was discussed so far.

What should I expect as my end if they place in the money? And should I be paying for anything else? IMO food, etc. is your problem.

Also, what is good form as far as hotel, flight? Meaning, no way I'm paying for first class, 5-star hotel and all that. I think there is some reasonable cutoff point.

Thoughts?
 
MisspentYouth said:
I'm thinking of putting a pro into international events. They wanted flight, hotel, and entry fee, which is cool by me. Nothing else was discussed so far.

What should I expect as my end if they place in the money? And should I be paying for anything else? IMO food, etc. is your problem.

Also, what is good form as far as hotel, flight? Meaning, no way I'm paying for first class, 5-star hotel and all that. I think there is some reasonable cutoff point.

Thoughts?
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Are you getting any kind of sponsor benefit, such as for your pool-related business? If not, I'd ask for at least half of the prize money and it's not unreasonable to ask for half the money after expenses are deducted. I've had one player ask for all expenses and $1000 guaranteed and any prize money would be mine.

As far as the hotel, often there is a hotel associated with the event that a lot of the players will be staying at. If you are going with all expenses coming off the top, the player may want to stay at a cheaper place but that would be his choice. For the flight, I'd say the cheapest possible is reasonable since that is what I usually do myself.

If you're crossing multiple time zones, you may want to budget for a couple of days before the tournament starts to get used to the change.
 
It is all negotiable. It depends a lot on what the player's 'expected value' is.

For example, if you're backing a player into the Derby City Classic and figure all entry fees, flight, and hotel would add up to 2K, maybe you figure on average you'll break even but there is a shot he'll bust out or win big. In that case it might make sense to agree to giving him a percentage of the net winnings, i.e. you get your 2K back first, but then you split the winnings 50/50.

But if you're backing a stone killer like Alex into the event, it might be agreeable to cover all expenses and give a 75/25 split of all winnings from the first penny won, because that is still a very profitable investment.

So it all depends on the pro, the competition, and the payout potential. You should know that pro's past performance, and you should look up payouts from former events.

Also, you have to decide if you're doing this to make money or to support a player. Some people just want to help pool players on their journey. If you're strictly looking at this as a money making investment that changes the frame of the negotiation as well.

In summary, there are no hard and fast rules. Don't be a sucker but don't be a nit. If you're going to back someone, make it fair to both of you. If you can't, then it's a bad bet.
 
Unless you are a sponsor that is getting a lot of exposure for your product, I don't really see an upside for this proposal.

If you are the only sponsor, without a product, and you think you can make money, I think the odds are against you from the start. For an international tournament, you are going to be out thousands in airfare, hotel, and expenses before the tournament even starts.

I don't know what you expect to receive in return if it isn't a profit on your investment. Is it a goodwill gesture because you know/like the player and want to provide monetary support to give them exposure and experience? Unless you have a "Secretariat" hidden in your stable, I don't see this becoming a lucrative deal money wise.

If you decide to do this, I hope you win enough to at least break even.
 
If you are doing this as an investment to make money, then you need to take at least 65%-70% after expenses are paid back. Here's a breakdown of a hypothetical using this past World 9 Ball as an example. Last year it ran from July 25-Aug 4, which included the qualifying rounds. Let's assume you're horse will be playing in those rounds. **Side Note: If your horse isn't invited to play in the World 9 Ball, then I would NOT invest in them to play international events**

So they'll need to be there for at least 10 days. But for the sake of this post, let's just say 11 days. Now I don't know where you live, but right now the average price for plane and hotel from Orlando, FL to Doha, Qatar is about $2,000

If you look at the payouts from the event last year

8th-5th $5,000
4th-3rd $8,000
2nd $20,000
1st $40,000

So if your horse gets 8th place, he gets $5,000. Gives you back the $2,000 for expenses and leaves $3,000 to be split. Now if you were to split it 50/50, you're getting $1,500 back on a $2,000 investment. That's why you need to take a larger cut as the investor (if you're plan is to make money).

Having said all that, I do think an agreeable solution would be to take smaller cuts the higher your horse finishes. As an example, you take 65% if he finishes 5th-8th, but you only take 40% if he finishes 1st or 2nd.
 
If you can be Bert and treat your horse like Eddie then take 75% and the girl.
 
I'd try something a little less costly as a test run, myself, but...

Azb did win the us open, one year.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained...you gotta look at it like throwing you money into the trash, then whatever tangible/ intangible benefits are a pleasant surprise.
 
PRED said:
If you can be Bert and treat your horse like Eddie then take 75% and the girl.
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I kind of agree with this. A group of us traveled to the SBE along with a pro player that mostly hustles. Travel expenses were nil and so was the room as there were 4 of us in a room. One of the others covered the pros share of the room, gas and paid his entry fees into the tournaments. The pro event, ProAm and a few other events.

The guy played really bad in all events. Turned out he had other things going for him. He just needed a way to get there. He didn't want to do good in the tournaments as he was more interested in the side action and spend most of his time doing that at another PH. He didn't ride back with us.

It is a tough situation. Take too much and there is no incentive for the player so they dump to make more elsewhere. So you need to take a percentage of everything to keep them honest.

The guy that sponsored him was really ticked as they were suppose to be friends and he felt that he got the royal shaft.

Kind of sad but that is how pool hustlers are.

🎱
 
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wasn't that the year John Smidt won it....he came on to az looking for a sponsor/backer....found one and the player won it and they split 50/50
 
if the player has been practicing his profession forsome time and still needs a sponsor

i would say he is a loser

so thats a bad bet

if he claims to be winning but just doesn't bet his own

he is a loser

i say let these bums play their own money or get an honest job


now if you havve a young efren and he is a friend and you can win a bunch of cash games and its fun

you get half of everything at the end

if you lose $1000 that comes back to you before you split profit

if you get so far behind that it would take a miracle just to get even

quit,unless you like throwing your money away

or you are a weak kneed groupy who just likes to hand with bums you think of as sports heroes
 
MisspentYouth said:
I'm thinking of putting a pro into international events. They wanted flight, hotel, and entry fee, which is cool by me. Nothing else was discussed so far.

What should I expect as my end if they place in the money? And should I be paying for anything else? IMO food, etc. is your problem.

Also, what is good form as far as hotel, flight? Meaning, no way I'm paying for first class, 5-star hotel and all that. I think there is some reasonable cutoff point.

Thoughts?
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A jellyroll.
 
if he is a friend and you trust him take a piece of his action by putting up an exact share of what % you have.

other wise any one that backs a pool player is a total sucker, as unless he has way the best of everyone there you have the worst of it. and that means you are the sucker. sorry but that is the way it is.

if you want action for your money go there and make side bets when you have the best of it.
 
I have a different outlook on the situation!

1st. You have to evaluate YOUR money 💰 situation???

If you are a millionaire? What is 2k?

If you are a working stiff? Then I would insist on some safety measures.

2nd evaluate the relationship with the player?

Best friend vs acquaintance?

After all this is answered then members can help and lend a opinion!

I think it is noble to help a friend and let him pursue a DREAM! Life is short, chances are few! Just remember it is HIS dream you are helping not yours!

No one dreams of sponsoring a pool player! No one!

3rd consideration is opportunity loss and would this prevent you from doing and following your own dream???

Regarding terms!

Expenses get covered first regardless of anything!

He wins then I would double the money I put up and player could keep the rest!

So , put up 2k should win 2k! 1st is 8k then player gets 4k! 2k expense money! 2k profit!

Just how I would do it!

Player is happy for the opportunity and experience!

Kd




Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
 
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Additionally, if he played well and exhibited a lot of fight for the money! I would throw the player some cash! Wins 2800 hundred 10th place. I am not going to chop the 800 profit. I would be in this TOTALLY out of friendship. The 400 means more to the friend then it should the backer. I would make the player buy me dinner with the winnings and nothing cheap! Lol 😄

Kd



Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
 
I understand the chorus of voices saying that backing a pool player into a tournament is a bad bet. I would agree with that in most cases.

There are exceptions, however.

For example, at the Derby City Classic or the US Open Bar Table Championships there is a lot of dead money, and there are three events that get played for just one airfare/hotel combo. If you can put a top player into all of the divisions at either event for 2K or so I think you have a hell of a sweat and a chance to win some cash.

Again, the majority are bad bets. If they weren't then players wouldn't need backers. And I understand where this advice is coming from. We've all seen charismatic players talk pool fans into becoming stake horses without really having the disposable income or gambling experience to know what they're getting into simply because they admire a player and want a way to be part of the crowd. If this is you, beware.

As for me, I've been backed into several pro tournaments and have shown a positive return for each of my backers. I was backed into the US Open for $1,200 with an agreement to split any positive win, I cashed for 2K and we happily made $400 each while I had an opportunity to play and shoot for even more. Another time I was backed into the DCC for $800 and covered expenses with tournament cashes then netted about $600 from a cash game he put me in on the side. Again, these are very small wins, but I got to play, they got something for nothing, and we both had a shot at something bigger. I have NEVER allowed a backer to get their money in bad, I had an offer to be put in to a $1,200 cost Seminole event back in 2011 and turned it down as it would've required me to finish top 3-4 to break even and I respect my backer's money too much for that.

Bottom line, if you have the money to lose, know what you are doing and why you are doing it, and use fair judgment, you aren't a sucker.
 
MisspentYouth said:
I'm thinking of putting a pro into international events. They wanted flight, hotel, and entry fee, which is cool by me. Nothing else was discussed so far.

What should I expect as my end if they place in the money? And should I be paying for anything else? IMO food, etc. is your problem.

Also, what is good form as far as hotel, flight? Meaning, no way I'm paying for first class, 5-star hotel and all that. I think there is some reasonable cutoff point.

Thoughts?
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Since putting anyone in besides possibly 3 players is a losing proposition, it just depends on how much you are willing to spend, I would say 50 /50 is fair, but it will still cost you a lot of money.
 
I've never heard of a pro that didn't share a room, even 4 to a room. Yet, everytime a pro has come on here looking for sponsorship, they always ask for the full room price for sigle occupancy.
 
us820 said:
What is expected???? Backer loses all his money and player is sorry.
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I think you meant, "player says he is sorry." Or, maybe the player really is sorry that the backer doesn't have any more money.

“No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up.” – Lily Tomlin​
 
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