Where is the center of the CB?

ENGLISH! said:
Thanks.

What I was 'talking' about is since the tip is arcing in a fixed elbow pendulum stroke, if one intends to lets say hit 1.5 tips below center & the arcing tip & a non perfect set up causes them to hit 2 tips below center or 1 tip below center. Then What?
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I think I'm understanding you, and still, the desired result can be compensated for with the players speed of stroke, smoothness of stroke etc. They just adjust without realizing.

Now if we are talking about a beginner with no base line for adjusting, I would think it is more important to impress the physics of the contacting balls i.e. slide, draw, forward roll, and where that happens GENERALLY on the CB rather than where to hit it exactly to make it happen because as I said, no ones stroke is identical to another's for all practical purposes in what I'm trying to explain.





Of course given the exact same everything, a cue ball hit in two different places will take two different paths off an object ball.
 
This is not done in pool, however, it's the right method

3andstop said:
I think I'm understanding you, and still, the desired result can be compensated for with the players speed of stroke, smoothness of stroke etc. They just adjust without realizing.

Now if we are talking about a beginner with no base line for adjusting, I would think it is more important to impress the physics of the contacting balls i.e. slide, draw, forward roll, and where that happens GENERALLY on the CB rather than where to hit it exactly to make it happen because as I said, no ones stroke is identical to another's for all practical purposes in what I'm trying to explain

Of course given the exact same everything, a cue ball hit in two different places will take two different paths off an object ball.
Click to expand...

Most beginner golfers "slice" the golf ball so that it travels on a left to right trajectory. They have to practice quite a bit to lesson the curve so that it's a more manageable "fade," or develop an "inside out" swing that produces a "draw".

In the meantime it's best to have them favor the left side of the golf course and green so their shot has the best chance to hit their intended target.

Pool's the same way, just a miniature version, it's best to have the beginner favor a side of the pocket and learn to lesson the adjustment as their stroke improves.

This is not done in pool, however, it's the right method (in my opinion) to get the quickest results and at the same time teach the player something about Zones.
 
When I was first learning to use english when I was 13, I started using outside english & 'favoring' the full hit side of the pocket so that the spin would throw the OB toward the middle. I would rarely cross over past the middle. It was either just inside the full hit side point to middle of the pocket & rare to the other side.

Then when I started to use inside english I would favor the thin hit side or even a bit of over cut & throw it in with the combination of CIT & SIT.

Once one can use both there is wide array of shot opportunities.

Now with TOI, I'm starting to need a bigger tool box.
 
First, define center.....Center of the ball? Or hitting on the center vertical line?

Sometimes a drawing is better than words.

Enjoy....... there are three impact points above the horizontal center line and three below, each with two possible angle of attacks, one cue level with table, one with cue at a angle.

Three views.....side, top and shooters.
 
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Bob Jewett said:
Take a stripe as the cue ball. Put the stripe horizontal. Then angle it up by the same angle as the cue stick elevation so that the stripe is "parallel" to the stick when the stick hits the ball. The middle of the stripe is the center of the ball. If the number is in an eye in the stripe, it can help to find the center by placing the eye towards the shooter.

Of course as others have mentioned, the cue ball hit perfectly in the center will get follow even on a 2-foot travel to the object ball. A small correction to something that was said above: The cue ball gradually acquires follow the whole time it is moving forward on the cloth until it is rolling smoothly. It does not suddenly go from slide to roll.

Be sure to explain the last paragraph to your student. Make sure they know that center ball will almost never get a stun shot. Instead the cue ball must be hit below center by a distance that is matched to the distance to the object ball, the speed of the shot, and the stickiness of the cloth. Have your student do stun shots at three different distances and with three different distances below center.
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The player mentioned does play and pockets balls fairly well. He had no clue as to what a stun line was. I set up
about a 2' angled cut shot with a chalk cube rail target 4' from the OB. He was hitting it at stop shot (stun) speed.

At this distance with that speed there was negligible roll hitting center ball. I was hitting the target.... he could not.

I used the chalk as a visual guide (although I like your idea of a striped ball). He also has a hard time drawing a CB.
After showing him the CB center line, using a level cue, he can now work on hitting lower without a jacked up angle.
.
 
Exactly!

Tramp Steamer said:
Translation: In the middle of the ball. :smile:
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You can't hit the center of the cue ball. It's way too deep in the middle, more than an inch or so. I just hit out on the edge and have had excellent results. Your results may vary. The game is the teacher!
 
Greg,

Your side view is a bit of a depiction of what I have been talking about when trying to relate hitting the exact same point but with a tip that is traveling on a different path. One with the tip going straight along the cue line through center ball during contact time & the other with the tip making contact at the same point but then moving on the path of a down ward arc that would be below the center during contact. IMO the results would not be the same.

Petros has asked & suggested that even hitting the same point at the same angle at the same speed but with a different length follow through might yield a different result. I tend to agree because a different length of follow through from the same speed at contact would require different deceleration rates or different starting points of the deceleration.

Thanks for the pics & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
Ralph Kramden said:
... At this distance with that speed there was negligible roll hitting center ball. I was hitting the target.... he could not. ....
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One approach to a situation like that is to simply point out that wherever he is hitting the ball now he needs to hit it lower. I think the Wagon Wheel drill might help him understand (or at least get a feel for) the vertical axis of the cue ball.

Hitting where he addresses the cue ball and seeing the center when he addresses the cue ball might be longer-term projects.
 
I like Bob Jewett's description of putting a stripe horizontal, and aiming at the middle of the stripe, or the number. You can also do this. Have the 'student' aim their tip where they "think" center is, on the CB, holding the tip still on the CB. Now set up the horizontal stripe right next to the person's CB. Have them move laterally straight over to the stripe. They will see that they are aiming slightly higher than their 'perceived' center. This is due to a visual misperception, common to almost all players...even pros. Think of it this way...when you are down in your shooting stance, whether your chin is on the cue, or you stand 10" above the cue doesn't matter, your eyes are still a great distance from being level with the table (lay your head sideways on the cloth to get the real perspective). Consequently your vision line is skewed, and where you believe center is, is really lower than that (the higher you stand, the greater the error). Many pros say they break with a 1/2 tip of draw. They are actually aiming at dead center on the outside edge of the vertical center line of the CB, due to the visual error.

The idea with the cube of chalk is good, but here's a better idea...because of different thickness shafts. Do the above exercise with the CB and stripe. When they move onto the middle of the stripe, take a cube of chalk and hold it upright as a diamond. The diameter of the chalk, corner to corner, is 1.125", or exactly half the diameter of the CB or OB. The middle of your ferrule should be exactly on the point of the chalk. Anyone who doesn't understand this can PM me or call me for a 'walk through'. Hope this helps...:thumbup:

Another way to see if you can shoot a stun shot, with tangent line results...set up the OB on the footspot. Place the CB one diamond away, at a very slight cut angle (line through the two balls points toward the pocket corner, rather than into the pocket, requiring a slight cut to make the ball). Aim at center on the CB...stroke through the ball, and pocket the OB. If the CB heads towards or into the side pocket you hit center. If it goes below or above the pocket you hit above or below center. This is a very easy shot, and should be practiced to learn tangent line physics, and how only top or bottom spin affect the tangent line (all other variables being equal...good stroke, correct speed, no sidespin, etc.).

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 
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I think if you are attempting to shoot a shot at a slight angle, and have him hit a secondary object ball with the CB and he is consistently rolling past the hit, I would wipe the slate clean and have him try to make the same shot but this time have the CB go BEHIND the secondary ob.

Somewhere in that mix he will find his stroke.
 
Scott Lee said:
I like Bob Jewett's description of putting a stripe horizontal, and aiming at the middle of the stripe, or the number. You can also do this. Have the 'student' aim their tip where they "think" center is, on the CB, holding the tip still on the CB. Now set up the horizontal stripe right next to the person's CB. Have them move laterally straight over to the stripe. They will see that they are aiming slightly higher than their 'perceived' center. This is due to a visual misperception, common to almost all players...even pros. Think of it this way...when you are down in your shooting stance, whether your chin is on the cue, or you stand 10" above the cue doesn't matter, your eyes are still a great distance from being level with the table (lay your head sideways on the cloth to get the real perspective). Consequently your vision line is skewed, and where you believe center is, is really lower than that (the higher you stand, the greater the error). Many pros say they break with a 1/2 tip of draw. They are actually aiming at dead center on the outside edge of the vertical center line of the CB, due to the visual error.

The idea with the cube of chalk is good, but here's a better idea...because of different thickness shafts. Do the above exercise with the CB and stripe. When they move onto the middle of the stripe, take a cube of chalk and hold it upright as a diamond. The diameter of the chalk, corner to corner, is 1.25", or exactly half the diameter of the CB or OB. The middle of your ferrule should be exactly on the point of the chalk. Anyone who doesn't understand this can PM me or call me for a 'walk through'. Hope this helps...:thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

1.25 x 2= 2.5 the diameter of a oversize CB
1.125 x 2= 2.25 the same as a standard ball
 
duckie said:
First, define center.....Center of the ball? Or hitting on the center vertical line?

Sometimes a drawing is better than words.

Enjoy....... there are three impact points above the horizontal center line and three below, each with two possible angle of attacks, one cue level with table, one with cue at a angle.

Three views.....side, top and shooters.
Click to expand...

I'm not following this logic.

There are an infinite number of impact points between the true center of the CB and whatever the miscue limit is. If you view the CB as having three impact points, you're severely limiting yourself as to how you cue the CB.

For instance, I might want to hit a HAIR below where I perceive center to be in order to get a certain action after hitting the OB a bunch of feet away and at a certain speed. I never go by tips--- it's just not specific and accurate enough. Describing tip offsets in "tips" is good for instruction, but not as a contruct to play within.

Think "very small" when cueing.
 
Has anyone been on the table and tried the 7 striped balls exercise I described to check to see how close they are to hitting center ball. I had 3 people try last night at the pool after I added my post yesterday. Of the 3 times (total 27 balls), 3 of 27 were hit perfectly straight and only 1 of the 3 players did it twice and it took 3 more attempts before he got it the 2nd time. These were not unskilled players and everyone of the players is capable of running a rack.

It's eye opening simple test and afterwards, you pay a lot more attention to your stroke delivery, the equator line on the cue ball and even checking your tip to make sure there isn't any uneven shape. You have to keep in mind that cue tip shape (nickel or dime) needs maintenance otherwise the tip's shape changes, especially if you don't use a break cue and the tip becomes more uneven. If you examine your cue tip under bright light and use a 40x magnifying glass, you see how the leather is really not perfectly smooth and even. So if you don't keep your tips in good condition, it's really hard to deliver a clean center ball stroke.......IMO.

I sometimes practice a rack of 10 ball and on certain type of shots, I substitute the 15 ball for the cue ball. I rotate the stripe before the hit to be perpendicular to the table and closely look at the 15 ball's roll to see how true my center ball stroke is that day. I already play with a measles ball but the striped ball clearly reveals by visual illustration when you add "unintentional" horizontal wobble/wiggle to the cue ball by failing to hit center ball.
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
I'm not following this logic.

There are an infinite number of impact points between the true center of the CB and whatever the miscue limit is. If you view the CB as having three impact points, you're severely limiting yourself as to how you cue the CB.

For instance, I might want to hit a HAIR below where I perceive center to be in order to get a certain action after hitting the OB a bunch of feet away and at a certain speed. I never go by tips--- it's just not specific and accurate enough. Describing tip offsets in "tips" is good for instruction, but not as a contruct to play within.

Think "very small" when cueing.
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Like Dennis Miler so often says, "I could be wrong."

But I think Duckie/Greg was referring to the actual true center of the CB in the middle of the ball, the center of gravity.

Many neglect that when considering where they are hitting the CB & the angle of the cue in relation to the center of gravity of the ball.

They also neglect the center of gravity of the ball in many of their 'arguments' regarding other issues.

Greg's pics indicate the center of gravity & the fact the one can hit the same contact point on the ball but with a different angle of the cue stick.

I have been trying to get some to understand that there would be a difference if the tip contacts the same point & all things being equal except the path of the tip through & during contact with the ball.

For instance the tip moving straight through the center of gravity vs a tip that arcs down below the center of gravity.

I have not been very successful. I'll just leave it at that.

Regards & Best Wishes to You Sir,
Rick

PS Like you suggest, I perceive an 'infinite' # of contact points.
 
ENGLISH! said:
Like Dennis Miler so often says, "I could be wrong."

But I think Duckie/Greg was referring to the actual true center of the CB in the middle of the ball, the center of gravity.

Many neglect that when considering where they are hitting the CB & the angle of the cue in relation to the center of gravity of the ball.

They also neglect the center of gravity of the ball in many of their 'arguments' regarding other issues.

Greg's pics indicate the center of gravity & the fact the one can hit the same contact point on the ball but with a different angle of the cue stick.

I have been trying to get some to understand that there would be a difference if the tip contacts the same point & all things being equal except the path of the tip through & during contact with the ball.

For instance the tip moving straight through the center of gravity vs a tip that arcs down below the center of gravity.

I have not been very successful. I'll just leave it at that.

Regards & Best Wishes to You Sir,
Rick

PS Like you suggest, I perceive an 'infinite' # of contact points.
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I read his post incorrectly - I thought he was saying there was 3 contact points as being the total possible...not just 3 examples.

The pool scientists seem to think that it's tip offset from the x/y axis and speed that determines spin. I disagree just based on practical application. I think the cue's vector through that point definitely affects the rpms. I believe on a given point, the vector closest to the perpendicular of the shot direction nets the most spin (I hope I said that correctly). More energy goes into the rotation versus the movement of the CB (hitting away from the mass versus into it).

Everyone thinks that's nuts, but an angled cue (horizontally) gets me to where I need to go with far less speed and effort. I stroke "around" the core and avoid it for l/r spin - not stroking towards it.

Might be all in my head - who knows.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I read his post incorrectly - I thought he was saying there was 3 contact points as being the total possible...not just 3 examples.

The pool scientists seem to think that it's tip offset from the x/y axis and speed that determines spin. I disagree just based on practical application. I think the cue's vector through that point definitely affects the rpms. I believe on a given point, the vector closest to the perpendicular of the shot direction nets the most spin (I hope I said that correctly). More energy goes into the rotation versus the movement of the CB (hitting away from the mass versus into it).

Everyone thinks that's nuts, but an angled cue (horizontally) gets me to where I need to go with far less speed and effort. I stroke "around" the core and avoid it for l/r spin - not stroking towards it.

Might be all in my head - who knows.
Click to expand...

I don't think that it's nuts. It's about the spin to 'speed'/'momentum' ratio that yields optimum results. While I don't utilize it as much as you seem to, as I prefer my cue as level as possible for most shots. Like you, I understand it from a practical application aspect & will employ it when I need or want to do so.

If one can hit the same amount off from the center line relative to the cue line but then angle that line down into the table the table can absorb some of the speed & momentum so that the resulting speed & momentum parallel to the bed of the table is less than it would have been for a cue that would have been parallel to the table. Yet the spin is very nearly, if not the same, and the net effect is that of increased spin IF the cue had been 'level'. Also the ball be off the cloth for more time & hence meet less friction resistance & retain more spin. Or it may be a combination of all of the parameters put together.

I hope I said that correctly or in a manner that someone might be able to understand it.

Or...As Dennis Miller says, 'I could be wrong.':wink:

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
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When we favor the inside slightly (instead of center) we now change this scenario....

Bavafongoul said:
Has anyone been on the table and tried the 7 striped balls exercise I described to check to see how close they are to hitting center ball. I had 3 people try last night at the pool after I added my post yesterday. Of the 3 times (total 27 balls), 3 of 27 were hit perfectly straight and only 1 of the 3 players did it twice and it took 3 more attempts before he got it the 2nd time. These were not unskilled players and everyone of the players is capable of running a rack.

It's eye opening simple test and afterwards, you pay a lot more attention to your stroke delivery, the equator line on the cue ball and even checking your tip to make sure there isn't any uneven shape. You have to keep in mind that cue tip shape (nickel or dime) needs maintenance otherwise the tip's shape changes, especially if you don't use a break cue and the tip becomes more uneven. If you examine your cue tip under bright light and use a 40x magnifying glass, you see how the leather is really not perfectly smooth and even. So if you don't keep your tips in good condition, it's really hard to deliver a clean center ball stroke.......IMO.

I sometimes practice a rack of 10 ball and on certain type of shots, I substitute the 15 ball for the cue ball. I rotate the stripe before the hit to be perpendicular to the table and closely look at the 15 ball's roll to see how true my center ball stroke is that day. I already play with a measles ball but the striped ball clearly reveals by visual illustration when you add "unintentional" horizontal wobble/wiggle to the cue ball by failing to hit center ball.
Click to expand...

This is why I suggest not using "center ball" as the foundation of how someone plays the game. When we favor the inside slightly (instead of center) we now change this scenario and it's no longer essential to hit the cue ball exactly where we are aiming. With TOI you have a slight margin of error that translates from the cue ball (the inner game because it's what we directly influence so it's connected to our inner thoughts) into the "outer game" of the object ball and the pocket.

Any extra margin of error created by a zone MUST be done at the cue ball.....the cue ball is the ONLY physical target in the game of pool. We don't contact anything else, the object ball, pocket, rails, diamonds, etc. are only influenced by the cue ball which is ONLY influenced by the contact you create with the TIP. This may be oversimplification, but it's vital to understand this to "real eyes" how margin of error can be increased and it will open up a new, mental, dimension to your game immediately.

'The Game Will Be Your Teacher'
 
Great post,
I've always found myself putting a slight spin on to left when I try to hit Centre ball,
and I thought I was the only idiot not hitting straight :p
To compensate, I've been hitting lower on the CB or a touch of right (I'm left handed)
But usually I hit below centre line because I tend to play a lot of draw, for no reason other than feeling comfortable.

So thanks for clarifying and giving me things to think about :)
 
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