Why are professional players broke?

This story is terrible and yes, in my opinion, all of those guys should have been banned from ever competing in professional pool again. Of course, there is no professional federation if I understand correctly, so there would have been no governing body to enforce such a ban


There was a board in the past.That time it was known as MPBA ( Mens professional Billiards Association).It latter became PBTA (Professional Billiards Tour Association) which then became PBT ( professional Billiards Tour) Then PBT became Camel Tour.They used to take diciplinary actions.They did ban few pro players in the past.I don`t have information on that particular incident with challenge of champions.Some time after the collapse of camel tour, Charlie williarms started a pro players association but the organization got slowly dissolved.Now u don't have no any pro players organization.:cool:
 
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Wise guys in Vegas, Really

This story is terrible and yes, in my opinion, all of those guys should have been banned from ever competing in professional pool again. Of course, there is no professional federation if I understand correctly, so there would have been no governing body to enforce such a ban

When I first learned of this shortly after it happened my reaction was not to blame the players, but to wonder who in Vegas missed the boat on this one. Come on, Really? Your going to bring eight guys in for a tournament, they all know each other, they all have been scuffling to make a quarter for most of their lives, and now your going to set odds on who is going to win the tournament. You have to think that somebody in Vegas HAD to know that that might not be the best thing to do. I always thought the guys in Vegas were smarter than that, obviously not. It took pool players to wise them up.
 
When I first learned of this shortly after it happened my reaction was not to blame the players, but to wonder who in Vegas missed the boat on this one. Come on, Really? Your going to bring eight guys in for a tournament, they all know each other, they all have been scuffling to make a quarter for most of their lives, and now your going to set odds on who is going to win the tournament. You have to think that somebody in Vegas HAD to know that that might not be the best thing to do. I always thought the guys in Vegas were smarter than that, obviously not. It took pool players to wise them up.

Yes, but you have to take responsibility for your actions. Integrity should count for something. I mean, they finally get a big tournament, on TV no less and they go and denigrate the game. Yes, the guys in Vegas should have been smarter than that, but the guys who conspired should have born the brunt of the punishment
 
Pool is not an occupation. It can be used to supplement or deplete your primary income (if you have one) - but pool is not an occupation. No matter how good you are, you need to have a back-up plan. In this day and age, education is vital in succeeding in the world - and even if you want to play pool (for big money) you need to know how to manage your money and your career.

Scuffling won't cut it.

The people that believe that scuffling from here to there will eventually lead them to a pot of gold - they are only fooling themselves.

A long time ago, I had somebody tell me that I had to chart my life out by establishing goals. It was cool to have some goals that were geared towards pool. I was able to achieve some of them, some them I didn't. However I had goals established outside the realm of of my pool life. These goals included education, career, family, etc. These "non-pool" goals were the fuel used to power my pool goals.

You also have to look at things realistically. It's cool to show up and play the pros, but your chance of winning anything of significance is very low percentage. I've seen guys win big events, or cash in big events and still end up in the red. That should tell you something - and your priorities should be based upon those realities.

It comes down to priorities. Learning how prioritize your life and your goals is essential to being successful no matter what you want to do. You won't always impress everybody - but I never really cared about that. My career as a "pro" probably didn't amount to shitt (even in my eyes), but I was able to channel my energy and passion for the game into other areas of my life. I had to learn to shut my mouth and listen to others, establish and foster good relationships, get an education, prioritize, and then work my asss off. That means getting up every day (before 2PM) and having someplace to be where you are expected to be responsible, dependable, and accountable.

In less than 10 years (1983-1993) I went from starving while living in the back seat of my Honda Accord - to purchasing and paying off a 5 bedroom home and acquiring two local pool rooms. In my spare time I earned degrees in business and psychology, and I worked in law enforcement. I continued to play at a high level, but my main gig - the gig that put food on the table and money in the bank was not dependent upon how I was pocketing balls that week.

Unless you play on the same level of Johnny Archer, Shane Van Boening, Thorsten Hohmann, Darren Appleton, Mika, etc... you might want to establish something that will take care of you once the balls start appearing fuzzy. There are some great players that I knew 25 years ago - they were rolling in the dough back then, but today they don't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. That's a bad place to be when you're 25, and an even worse place to be when you're 60.

For those that think that teaching or writing books is enough to sustain you - ROTFLMAO - for the month of May, I sold 2 books, and made a whopping $20. I think altogether, I might have made $100 teaching on the side. These days, I make more money training athletes in other sports than I ever have in pool, and that is where I concentrate 90% of my energy these days. You go with the flow.

:)


You hit the nail on the head. No education or career goals is going to catch up with most of them at some point. Its great they are following their dreams playing pro pool but theres a lot of other people out that could have gone pro path but decided better against it. I feel bad when they do get older and they have nothing - no social security benefits paid into the system and no 401k or retirement fund.
 
I agree, somewhat

Yes, but you have to take responsibility for your actions. Integrity should count for something. I mean, they finally get a big tournament, on TV no less and they go and denigrate the game. Yes, the guys in Vegas should have been smarter than that, but the guys who conspired should have born the brunt of the punishment

Yes, if this had been an episode on Law and Order, at the end of the program we would have seen the players being hauled off to jail. But the point I was making is that if the guys in Vegas had been even a little aware of the sub-culture of the pool world, they would have never set odds on that tournament and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Even if they had not set odds, that $50,000 was going to get wacked up anyway. That happens all the time. You would be hard pressed to find eight players willing to travel to a tournament knowing that their chances were 7 out of 8 that they would make nothing. Players make "savers" all the time, and there's nothing wrong with that. There is so little money in pool that the players do whatever they can to increase their chances of covering their expenses should they not make it into the money.
 
My question is why are professional players always broke? They have so much talent and ability it seems to me that they could be doing something with that talent and ability in addition to playing in professional events.

Well ummm, let me see. Is it because their talent lies in shooting pool?

Pool players love to gamble. You know that. They're degenerate gamblers. And what do gamblers have in common. They like to make the easy buck. They don't want to work hard for their money. They'll play a D player and ask for the 7. All in all, not a characteristic of a hard working, goal oriented person who wants to make something of himself.

Plus they never exercise, and get fat, soft, and pale from lack of sun and fresh air.:grin::grin:
 
Yes, if this had been an episode on Law and Order, at the end of the program we would have seen the players being hauled off to jail.

Even if they had not set odds, that $50,000 was going to get wacked up anyway. That happens all the time. You would be hard pressed to find eight players willing to travel to a tournament knowing that their chances were 7 out of 8 that they would make nothing. There is so little money in pool that the players do whatever they can to increase their chances of covering their expenses should they not make it into the money.

Weren't subsequent Challenge of Champions tournaments still a winner-take-all format? Aren't the outcomes of those tournaments suspect too? What's there to prevent players in the subsequent Challenge of Champions tournaments from making collusive deals to divide up the pot?

For that matter, without a governing disciplinary body here in the U.S., what's to stop pool players in other tournaments from making collusive deals?
 
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That is a fantastic tale by Grady. Very interesting to see him saying that too. I thought he and Buddy were pretty tight.
MULLY
I too would love to see this match

I don't believe that "Professor" is Grady. Last time I talked to Grady about savers, he was in favor of them.
 
Look the fact is that based on the current economic model it can't work for anyone but the Top 10. If your 11~200 tough luck. Nobody cares and I hope you like living in your car or on your friend's sofa.

Check out the money on the PBA list. Nothing special except they have a bunch of NON-BOWLING sponsors and wear shirts that would make a Nascar vehicle blush.

Pepsi, Denny's & Bud. A couple of these could change the whole picture. We need more Viagra and less Predator.

http://www.pba.com/SeasonStats/TotalWinnings/58

Nick

I can see the sponsor ad now. "Your stick needs to be straight and stiff before you can shoot straight. Ask your doctor about Viagra today." Johnnyt
 
IMO the players that dumped/fixed that tounament are a big reason pool is still in the toilet today. If it went over legit casinos would probably be still booking bets today and the mainstream gamblers would be watching it on tv, Internet streams, and in person and betting pool online. The IPT had many things right and one of them was casino/Internet betting on pool was needed. Pool could have been bigtime. Johnnyt
 
Savers aren't that bad

Weren't subsequent Challenge of Champions tournaments still a winner-take-all format? Aren't the outcomes of those tournaments suspect too? What's there to prevent players in the subsequent Challenge of Champions tournaments from making collusive deals to divide up the pot?

For that matter, without a governing disciplinary body here in the U.S., what's to stop pool players in other tournaments from making collusive deals?

That first tournament had a very small field (8) and a large payout ($50,000). By agreeing to an even Chop in advance, some of those players were still getting more than they had ever won in a single tournament. That was probaly just too tempting to pass up. Later tournaments had larger fields and the Chop option would have been less attractive. But still, anyone who watches a Winner-take-all format and thinks the player who got second walked away with nothing is being a bit naive. Savers take place more often than not.

But savers don't make the outcomes of tournaments suspect. Players still play hard and try to win. Making a saver or two is the players way of buying a little insurance to cover his expenses should he not cash in the tournament.

I'll give you an example. A number of years ago I went to a Regional Tour stop with Scotty Townsend. The tournament had drawn several top players, including Wade Crane. At the last minute Jose Parica walks in and that caused a little stir in the room because he had not been expected. I watched Jose size up the other players in the room, then he walked over to where Scotty and I were. He asked Scotty if he wanted to make a saver. Scotty is not one who usually makes savers, but this was Jose, and out of respect for Jose he agreed. Jose then went over to Wade and had a conversation. I couldn't hear what was being said, but I assumed another saver deal was being made.

Turned out that Jose was not only a great player, he was also very good at picking who to take savers with. Jose finished fourth, but he got to put some extra money in his pocket when Scotty beat Wade in the finals.
The fourth place money probaly just covered his expenses, but by making the savers he left with a little profit, and the savers that were made had no affect at all on the outcome of the tournament.
 
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I recently read a book on the gambling exploits of "Cornbread Red." Two times in the book, it mentioned the gambling jackpots that Cornbread had. The first time, he won $90,000 while playing craps in Las Vegas. Within a few days, he had spent or gambled away all of the money he had won.

The second jackpot was when Cornbread won over 50K at a pool gambling match. Once again, Cornbread spent or gambled it all away within days.

It seems like many pool players who gamble have a warped perspective about money and how easy it is to lose it.
 
I don't know how well the trick shot guys are doing but I seem to remember at one time Mike Massey quoted me a price of $1500 a day plus expenses to come in and do an exhibition.

That's pretty standard quote. It's also pretty standard that they will do it for you only for a special price of xxx. I think the $1500 is the price they would like to have but as you said, their ass is currently broke so what the hell they'll slum just this one time.
 
I recently read a book on the gambling exploits of "Cornbread Red." Two times in the book, it mentioned the gambling jackpots that Cornbread had. The first time, he won $90,000 while playing craps in Las Vegas. Within a few days, he had spent or gambled away all of the money he had won.

The second jackpot was when Cornbread won over 50K at a pool gambling match. Once again, Cornbread spent or gambled it all away within days.

It seems like many pool players who gamble have a warped perspective about money and how easy it is to lose it.

Truer words have never been spoken on this forum.

The problem with those pool players who gamble is that they have no sense of value of the almighty dollar. Easy come, easy go. :rolleyes:

Keith won almost $400,000 in Vegas shooting pool, and a month later, he was broke. This was before my watch. :angry:

'Nuff said. ;)
 
Yes, they know in the back of their heads that the boom will drop one day, and they will be in trouble. But, at the same time, they know they have been in trouble many times before, and got through it. They probably will at their end too. If not, hey, they had a great ride!

And when the bottom DOES drop one day on these people, there's always a good 'ol government agency that will step in and bail them out of this sad situation. Guess who the government agency is funded by? Yep, the taxpayers, or in other words, the working stiffs.

Kinda puts them in a class with illegal immigrants and single mothers that refuse to work but keeps pumping out numerous fatherless children.

Their "great ride" is bad for America AFAIC.

Maniac (should know better than to quote a post of Neil's)
 
MAYBE this will help some of you understand the mentality a little bit better. Maybe not.

Pool players do what they do because they are free spirits. They love what they do. They aren't bound by the almighty dollar like the working stiffs are. Money is a tool for them, not their life blood and sense of self worth.

Yes, they know in the back of their heads that the boom will drop one day, and they will be in trouble. But, at the same time, they know they have been in trouble many times before, and got through it. They probably will at their end too. If not, hey, they had a great ride!

Working stiffs have a totally different mentality, or so they think. To them, life is all about how many dollars you have and how many toys you have. They can't begin to fathom how one can get by being broke. Their priorities are totally different. They say they have more freedom because of their $$$, but, do they really?? They can save up for that great vacation. Guess what? Pool players are on a constant vacation! Just different priorities.

Most working stiffs bust their butts for "the future". They can't handle being broke. They can't fathom how a poolplayer can look to the future and not be prepared. Guess what about that? The working class does the same thing as the pool player. They think they are providing for the future. But are they really? They have their 401K's all flushed out, they spent 40 years doing a job they really can't stand but it has that great retirement pay with benefits. What are they going to do when all that becomes worthless? They KNOW it's going to happen. They hear it all the time. The economy can do nothing now but collapse. Inflation will go through the roof. Doom and gloom? Yes, but, yet we all know it is the truth. What have they done to prepare for that time? They don't. They prepare by saying it won't happen in their lifetime. They close their eyes to it, just like the poolplayers do. The two "classes" of people aren't so much different after all.

By 2046, it will take every penny this country makes (that's not taxes, that's everyones income) just to pay the interest on the national debt. That's only 34 years from now. Do you really think that this country will last that long before it collapses? I don't.

Now, all that was said just to point out the actual similarities between the two thought process of the player and the worker. They actually are quite similar when you break it down.

I don't think you have a very clear understanding of us working stiffs.

It's really pretty simple. Most of us working stiffs are just trying to provide for our families. Certainly, there are some that are just chasing after that next dollar so they can purchase their next toy. But most of the guys I know are really just trying to give their kids a better life than they had.

The idea of the pool player just being a free spirit is a bit romantic and the story works until these players add other people (girlfriends, wives, children) into their lives. At that point, it becomes just a completely selfish endeavor. Leaving the wife and kids at home while they are chasing after their next big score. Unfortunately, once they land that next big score the cash mysteriously disappears before any of it makes it home.

Oh well, what do I know? I'm just a working stiff.
 
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