I admire your bravery for giving such an answer to Mr. Hightower - who incidentally has written a book, made videos and makes machinery for building cues
Why is it newer cue makers always
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I admire your bravery for giving such an answer to Mr. Hightower - who incidentally has written a book, made videos and makes machinery for building cues
As a newer cue maker I'll give some food for thought.
#1 - If you haven't put out a lot of cues, you have no idea if your cue will hit well, it may be firewood material when your done. You might mess something up, or it just may plain be a dud. So you put all the work into building a "fancy" cue, nice rings, ect. and then you end up chopping it in half because it was crap. That's a lot of extra work for nothing.
#2 - specialized tools. Nobody can tell you how much run out your router has, so you can't just buy a bit that should be the right size to cut the billet slot with. You have to buy multiple sizes and see which works. Then buy more sizes depending on what width your inlayed material. Those bits aren't cheap, and you need more than one of each because they break. And what if that bit has some runout? Another factor into things.
#3 - Once the billet is built, then you need to part your rings off. More equipment, and then you have to have the knowledge/skills to cut them off perfectly square.
#4 - You can put all the fancy rings and inlays you want in a cue, but if you're not well known you have no idea if it'll sell for what you need to get out of the cue. Nobody wants to take a loss on a cue. But, more people are willing to give a cue a chance if it's $300 instead of $1000.
I could go on and on.
#1 - If you haven't put out a lot of cues, you have no idea if your cue will hit well, it may be firewood material when your done. You might mess something up, or it just may plain be a dud. So you put all the work into building a "fancy" cue, nice rings, ect. and then you end up chopping it in half because it was crap. That's a lot of extra work for nothing.
#2 - specialized tools. Nobody can tell you how much run out your router has, so you can't just buy a bit that should be the right size to cut the billet slot with. You have to buy multiple sizes and see which works. Then buy more sizes depending on what width your inlayed material. Those bits aren't cheap, and you need more than one of each because they break. And what if that bit has some runout? Another factor into things.
#3 - Once the billet is built, then you need to part your rings off. More equipment, and then you have to have the knowledge/skills to cut them off perfectly square.
#4 - You can put all the fancy rings and inlays you want in a cue, but if you're not well known you have no idea if it'll sell for what you need to get out of the cue. Nobody wants to take a loss on a cue. But, more people are willing to give a cue a chance if it's $300 instead of $1000.
I could go on and on.
another possibility for plain rings...
I was very fortunate a few years ago after buying a beautiful olivewood Richard Chudy (RC3) cue with fancy rings. I wanted 2 new shafts made and after emailing Mr. Chudy photos, he said I was in luck because he had some of this same ring material saved but that this was unusual for him to have reserve.
He told me that for the most part he was going with simple silver rings from then on for simplification reasons. He said that he gets a lot of requests for extra shafts to be made and it isn't practical to keep material (extra rings) on hand to match all of the customs he does.
I am sure, however, that he will still make fancy ringed cues on custom orders but trying to have more matching shafts made after-the-fact may be difficult, if not impossible.
FWIW, if I ever get another RC3 cue it will also have to have fancy rings everywhere. Otherwise, it would be like having Michelangelo just paint your bathroom ceiling. :grin-square:
Best,
Brian kc
I was very fortunate a few years ago after buying a beautiful olivewood Richard Chudy (RC3) cue with fancy rings. I wanted 2 new shafts made and after emailing Mr. Chudy photos, he said I was in luck because he had some of this same ring material saved but that this was unusual for him to have reserve.
He told me that for the most part he was going with simple silver rings from then on for simplification reasons. He said that he gets a lot of requests for extra shafts to be made and it isn't practical to keep material (extra rings) on hand to match all of the customs he does.
I am sure, however, that he will still make fancy ringed cues on custom orders but trying to have more matching shafts made after-the-fact may be difficult, if not impossible.
FWIW, if I ever get another RC3 cue it will also have to have fancy rings everywhere. Otherwise, it would be like having Michelangelo just paint your bathroom ceiling. :grin-square:
Best,
Brian kc
GoTulane
Shizzle-rific
Hey Joey - Those look great!!!!! Subtle but very nice!!!!
Now I know all are wondering when we can see the rest of the cue:thumbup:
Or are you just making shafts nowadays?
Michael
my ring screwup
the way it's supposed to be
set behind the handle
the way it ISNT supposed to look
set at the buttcap
making some more
i could take the time to explain how i screwed that up or i could be out there fixing it
i think i'll do that :thumbup:
gonna go bore this billet & cut my wafers now
the way it's supposed to be
set behind the handle
the way it ISNT supposed to look
set at the buttcap
making some more
i could take the time to explain how i screwed that up or i could be out there fixing it
i think i'll do that :thumbup:
gonna go bore this billet & cut my wafers now
GoTulane
Shizzle-rific
Nice!!!
I just want to see the rest of the cue:thumbup:
Looks very nice from what we can see in the rings - love the color choice!!
Michael
the way it's supposed to be
set behind the handle
the way it ISNT supposed to look
set at the buttcap
making some more
i could take the time to explain how i screwed that up or i could be out there fixing it
i think i'll do that :thumbup:
gonna go bore this billet & cut my wafers now
I just want to see the rest of the cue:thumbup:
Looks very nice from what we can see in the rings - love the color choice!!
Michael
gimme a couple hours and i'll show more of it :thumbup:
It does seem simple enough, but no it's not that simple. Personally, on the P/J cues I build, the majority of hands-on labor time is spent making rings. Here's a pic of a cue where I showed different ring components:
Notice the billet. It's kingwood with ivory slots. The kingwood cost $25/blank for me to buy. The ring billets for a cue require an entire blank, so in this case I paid $25 for the wood that I was going to use as the ring base. I have to cut that 1.5"x18" square down to 1.35" round & the cut it into 4"-6" sections. I then center drill each section & cut to appropriate size for the billet, which each cue requires 2-3 billets of differing size. Once each section is to size, I have to measure & mark the depth i'm gonna have to make my slots, so I don't go too far & make the rings weak or go too shallow & then the rings fade away while tapering the cue. It's an exacting mathematical science. Now I cut the slots in all the sections & need to cut strips of vory to glue into the slots. I have to cut that ivory exactly perfect & true to fit exactly, and leave excess tallness so I can shave flush to the billet. Ivory isn't cheap, and a mistake in setting up my machinery will be uber expensive. As such, I have dedicated machinery for this process so I get consistent results. By dedicated I mean these machines do only one thing & nothing else. Another huge expense.
Now we have slotted billets made. I'm going to need to accent them with something. In this case, I need more kingwood at $25, a piece of ebony at $35, and some ivory cut round to appropriate size. Ivory costs $300/lb by the way. I now have all my billets & materials ready for making rings. From here I have to cut tenons on the cue & then bore holes in all the billets to fit exactly. Every billet has to have the exact same size bore, or else you get something like what you see in BHQ's picture. Once the holes are bored, I have to then begin parting off rings from the billets. I'm going to have to have my cutter set perfectly and have it super sharp or else my rings won't come out square or clean or the thickness I measured for. Measuring accurately is another task in itself & that requires a jig set up on the ring cutting lathe to measure exact thicknesses for consistent results. More dedicated machines = more money. By the time i'm done with making rings for one cue, I have roughly $100+ in materials and several labor hours in work. I have about $1500 in my dedicated machinery for making & cutting consistent ringwork that carries my signature look. I have failed numerous times while trying to get it all figured out & getting all the kinks worked out. That is aquired skill, not basic skills generally known by all cuemakers.
Sorry for the lengthy post but I wanted to point out that this seemingly simple task is not so simple once you actually do it. To do it correctly & consistently, you have to be enginuitive and willing to spend some money. It's simply not something a newb is capable of. It is advanced cuemaking. While I completely agree anybody can cut some slots, glue in some strips & have slotted ringwork, nobody gets it right the first time...or the second....and only those who put their focus into it are doing it consistently and cleanly. I guess you could always set up a jig for parting rings and buy billets from sources like Prather. But it's still expensive. The expense, time & expertise are why it's not seen on newb cues very often. Hopefully this gives you a less foggy perception of the task of making slotted rings.
I'm not taking any credit from newb builders. I'm simply saying that this kind of work comes from experience, time in the craft.
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3 point bfly
3 up
3 down
hence, the slot rings of 3 veneers x 3 rotations
you'll see on the buttsleeve, a line, that's where i stopped cutting , when i saw the last set of rings was poopoo
It does seem simple enough, but no it's not that simple. Personally, on the P/J cues I build, the majority of hands-on labor time is spent making rings. Here's a pic of a cue where I showed different ring components:
Notice the billet. It's kingwood with ivory slots. The kingwood cost $25/blank for me to buy. The ring billets for a cue require an entire blank, so in this case I paid $25 for the wood that I was going to use as the ring base. I have to cut that 1.5"x18" square down to 1.35" round & the cut it into 4"-6" sections. I then center drill each section & cut to appropriate size for the billet, which each cue requires 2-3 billets of differing size. Once each section is to size, I have to measure & mark the depth i'm gonna have to make my slots, so I don't go too far & make the rings weak or go too shallow & then the rings fade away while tapering the cue. It's an exacting mathematical science. Now I cut the slots in all the sections & need to cut strips of vory to glue into the slots. I have to cut that ivory exactly perfect & true to fit exactly, and leave excess tallness so I can shave flush to the billet. Ivory isn't cheap, and a mistake in setting up my machinery will be uber expensive. As such, I have dedicated machinery for this process so I get consistent results. By dedicated I mean these machines do only one thing & nothing else. Another huge expense.
Now we have slotted billets made. I'm going to need to accent them with something. In this case, I need more kingwood at $25, a piece of ebony at $35, and some ivory cut round to appropriate size. Ivory costs $300/lb by the way. I now have all my billets & materials ready for making rings. From here I have to cut tenons on the cue & then bore holes in all the billets to fit exactly. Every billet has to have the exact same size bore, or else you get something like what you see in BHQ's picture. Once the holes are bored, I have to then begin parting off rings from the billets. I'm going to have to have my cutter set perfectly and have it super sharp or else my rings won't come out square or clean or the thickness I measured for. Measuring accurately is another task in itself & that requires a jig set up on the ring cutting lathe to measure exact thicknesses for consistent results. More dedicated machines = more money. By the time i'm done with making rings for one cue, I have roughly $100+ in materials and several labor hours in work. I have about $1500 in my dedicated machinery for making & cutting consistent ringwork that carries my signature look. I have failed numerous times while trying to get it all figured out & getting all the kinks worked out. That is aquired skill, not basic skills generally known by all cuemakers.
Sorry for the lengthy post but I wanted to point out that this seemingly simple task is not so simple once you actually do it. To do it correctly & consistently, you have to be enginuitive and willing to spend some money. It's simply not something a newb is capable of. It is advanced cuemaking. While I completely agree anybody can cut some slots, glue in some strips & have slotted ringwork, nobody gets it right the first time...or the second....and only those who put their focus into it are doing it consistently and cleanly. I guess you could always set up a jig for parting rings and buy billets from sources like Prather. But it's still expensive. The expense, time & expertise are why it's not seen on newb cues very often. Hopefully this gives you a less foggy perception of the task of making slotted rings.
I'm not taking any credit from newb builders. I'm simply saying that this kind of work comes from experience, time in the craft.
you can call me brent
ok, now that i got some time here, i'll tell you all where i screwed up
i had the buttcap and all the rings glued together on a delrin fixture i made
put that in the chuck and bored to .875"
as i was about to put that onto the end of the cue,
i dropped it, and chipped out the last ring
the rings cut off billet were .750" originally
when i tried to recenter another .750 id ring onto the .875 bored stuff,
that's where i got into trouble
Don't work yourself into a lather, KC. I was merely posing a question. I also said making rings should be a cuemaker's basic skill. Do you agree with that or not? And to my other point, after the dowel is made, the pics of which are so generously posted by BHQ, what is done is to slice off wafers. It's not as if you are going through the whole process for each and every ring. Do you agree with that or not?
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How many cues is BHQ going to use those same rings?
So, if the next cue he makes has different colors of butterflys, it's a new ring billet.
And if the next cue is different from the first 2, another ring billet.
If he builds his cues in batches (a lot of makers do) he may be building 5 different ring billets for a single batch of cues. Look at Eric's post. Do that 5 times for 5 cues. It's not just cutting a ring off and slapping it on a cue, even when he has dedicated machinery just for that task. It takes knowledge, time, and money.
Do we have another that wants to try the Ragu cue challange?
Doubtless because they also don't put the subject in the subject li...
1. They may not be able to make their own rings yet and are too poor
to buy them.
2. They understand the concept of 'understated elegence' - there
are designs where a plain ring is a much better choice than a 'fancy' one.
Dale<certified ringer>
Basic...Sounds like this is the issue.
As was well described by qbilder. There is nothing basic or simple about making slotted rings or getting them to line up perfectly. It involves more repeatable precision to create the billets then the word basic really implies and on top of that it takes an artful eye to put them together to make the composite rings look the way you would want them to. It probably should be referred to more as a staple in cue making and a required but not so easily acquired skill as a lot of people seeking custom cues tend to want fancy rings.
As was well described by qbilder. There is nothing basic or simple about making slotted rings or getting them to line up perfectly. It involves more repeatable precision to create the billets then the word basic really implies and on top of that it takes an artful eye to put them together to make the composite rings look the way you would want them to. It probably should be referred to more as a staple in cue making and a required but not so easily acquired skill as a lot of people seeking custom cues tend to want fancy rings.
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Another point in this discussion is how many people order a custom cue from the new makers as opposed to just looking at what is built on spec. When I was starting out I did not go crazy on ringwork unless someone ordered it. It can be tough enough selling cues when you have no reputation to go on. Every extra decoration adds cost. Most people do not want to risk alot of money on an unknown maker right off the bat.
I would bet most people who are capable of making a cue that hits good, looks good and has a nice and neat overall appearence/fit and finish are capable of making rings too if so inclined. If someone has invested the time to learn that much I am sure they have learned to do rings also.
I would bet most people who are capable of making a cue that hits good, looks good and has a nice and neat overall appearence/fit and finish are capable of making rings too if so inclined. If someone has invested the time to learn that much I am sure they have learned to do rings also.
hey, gimme a buzz sometime.
lost your number in phone into toilet incident
OOPS, got you mixed up with somebody else
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im not dogging you,
please dont misunderstand me
but as with everything, there's always just a little bit more to it than the outsider thinks
my opinion, slots are a pain in the ass that , especially in this kind of economy, the average cue buyer doesnt want to pay enough to justify the time & effort it takes for slot ringwork, especially when you have more than one slot ring, and they're rotated to make a pattern.