Will Chinese Cue production effect the Custom Cue Market in the near future or not?

[skins]

Hey Mason, I have to kinda disagree with you here. While you can get sharp points using CnC equipment to cut points with a small bit, they can still be identified as such. This is mostly possible because they will be perfectly flush in most cases. However, their are currently some high end cue makers who cut their points using CNC controlled machinery, and then finish them by hand and with other methods to make their points appear not to be made using CNC controlled equipment. In fact, I have seen it done, and even with a loop you would be hard pressed to identify the method of construction used.

Please understand, I do not agree with this type of deceptive behavior but I know it is occurring.

deceptive behavior??? who are the makers being deceptive?? no well known makers i know hide any of their major construction techniques.....as well, anything that can be done without the use of CNC controlled machines, notice how i said "machines" because that's all they are, can be done with them period. all makers use the same basic tools for cutting, milling, slicing, threading, drilling, etc..... the only difference is whether the machines that hold those tools are fitted with computer code driven motors for precision and repeatability. as far as other comments in this thread about not being able to cut sharp inlays, points etc.... that's just someones ignorance to the subject. look at the link below. it's just one example for the less knowledgeable......

http://dzcues.com/images/videos/V-cut%206point.wmv

skins -------- thinking here we go again......

 

[Newton]

deceptive behavior??? who are the makers being deceptive?? no well known makers i know hide any of their major construction techniques.....as well, anything that can be done without the use of CNC controlled machines, notice how i said "machines" because that's all they are, can be done with them period. all makers use the same basic tools for cutting, milling, slicing, threading, drilling, etc..... the only difference is whether the machines that hold those tools are fitted with computer code driven motors for precision and repeatability. as far as other comments in this thread about not being able to cut sharp inlays, points etc.... that's just someones ignorance to the subject. look at the link below. it's just one example for the less knowledgeable......

http://dzcues.com/images/videos/V-cut%206point.wmv

skins -------- thinking here we go again......

There has been a discussion about CNC and custom work here; http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=91991&page=5

As Bob mention on his video, the V groves is usually cut in a Lathe with a router attached and possibly using power feed on the lathe. This is to make a short spliced forarm. The process involves turning on the power on the router and hitting the switch on the power feed.

Then you could do the exact same thing the way Bob do it on the video which for me still is a custom cue and custom way of producing the cue. Compared to the other method, I guess the CNC method most likely involved a longer preparation time than on a traditional lathe/router setup, since there need to be some kind of control of the CNC machine which is not a turn key solution. You don't just buy a big machine, turn it on and hit GO. It need to be programmed and learned before it's applied.
Bob makes some marvelous cues which I for sure would be proud to own.

I think what some one refers to as possible "not as sharp" is when you do inlayed points in the forarm. These would normally be rounded in the ends, but as mentioned else where on the forum, these could be "hand sharpened" afterwards to be razor sharp as well.

This applies also to inlays, where cumakers could make a pocket with a pantomill or a CNC machine and then sharpen these up to fit a sharp inlay.

N

 

[BlowFish]

just a thought rusty. let's say I have 2 cars (a brand new Toyota and a brand new Royce) which either one I am giving away for Christmas. If I would let you choose just one car, which car will you take and why?

I'll take the Roller, sell it and buy a Japanese Toyota Car and some American Custom Cues.

You need my address?

 

[JB Cases]

exactly my point. I'm still looking forward to see a Chinese master cue craftsman, who would dedicate most of his time and effort in creating a cue masterpiece (not just the design, but overall construction and craftsmanship). and I highly doubt if that chinese guy would sell his craft for a bargain. you can't bargain pure dedication, hardwork and rarity of such creation.

it would be wonderful to see if a chinese man would be interested to learn and create a cue, just for the love of it or simply "FOR ART's SAKE". and for those art seekers, it's been a pleasure doing business with you.

I agree. Already in Taiwan there are several such craftsmen. As well there are production cue makers who have dedicated a part of their factory to trying to create custom level cues. In these shops the craftsmen are not motivated by quantity and are free to pursue quality in their work. As a result the quality of the cues is much higher and the price reflects it.

The only reason that such cue makers look to the west is for affirmation. For the past 50 years or so most of the world's best cues have come from the USA into Asia. So it's only natural that to be recognized as a master cue maker requires that one's cues be able to stand shoulder to shoulder with American custom cues.

In China there are craftsmen and artists of the highest degree imaginable. There are shops that sell sculptures made from burl that took 5-10 years to complete. The intricacy is simply astounding. So there is no reason to believe that one day there will be individual Chinese cue makers. And I guarantee that even though their cues will be as good as anything made anywhere else they will be very busy serving the Chinese market and won't be looking to get a lot of western customers.

 

[ShootingArts]

I didn't see a sharp corner made

When you get through with the rotating tool you still have to sharpen the corner at the bottom of the "V" by hand or round the point going in slightly. Either one is a hand operation. The generally accepted minimum diameter for a flat bottom hole or point with NC is .030 too. There are ways to get it smaller but then there is much more hand fitting to the inlays and the OD of the cue has to be spot on.

NC equipment is great for roughing in work. It can do the finish work on inlays with very little hand work if we accept .030 diameter points as sharp. If we want razor sharp points, we are going to be doing some hand work.

I own NC and have no objection to roughing with it since the only difference between the NC machine and hand pantograph for roughing is my time as far as I am concerned. However NC is just the tool, it doesn't replace me.

Hu

deceptive behavior??? who are the makers being deceptive?? no well known makers i know hide any of their major construction techniques.....as well, anything that can be done without the use of CNC controlled machines, notice how i said "machines" because that's all they are, can be done with them period. all makers use the same basic tools for cutting, milling, slicing, threading, drilling, etc..... the only difference is whether the machines that hold those tools are fitted with computer code driven motors for precision and repeatability. as far as other comments in this thread about not being able to cut sharp inlays, points etc.... that's just someones ignorance to the subject. look at the link below. it's just one example for the less knowledgeable......

http://dzcues.com/images/videos/V-cut%206point.wmv

skins -------- thinking here we go again......

 

[ShootingArts]

No argument here

John,

No argument with me that such cue makers can be developed in china if they don't exist already. When they do they will be chinese custom cue makers, not factory assembly line workers. There is no reason to think that master craftsmen all over the world can't learn to make top quality custom cues. Maximum production numbers of top quality cues will be sharply limited however.

Hu

I agree. Already in Taiwan there are several such craftsmen. As well there are production cue makers who have dedicated a part of their factory to trying to create custom level cues. In these shops the craftsmen are not motivated by quantity and are free to pursue quality in their work. As a result the quality of the cues is much higher and the price reflects it.

The only reason that such cue makers look to the west is for affirmation. For the past 50 years or so most of the world's best cues have come from the USA into Asia. So it's only natural that to be recognized as a master cue maker requires that one's cues be able to stand shoulder to shoulder with American custom cues.

In China there are craftsmen and artists of the highest degree imaginable. There are shops that sell sculptures made from burl that took 5-10 years to complete. The intricacy is simply astounding. So there is no reason to believe that one day there will be individual Chinese cue makers. And I guarantee that even though their cues will be as good as anything made anywhere else they will be very busy serving the Chinese market and won't be looking to get a lot of western customers.

 

[Newton]

......
In China there are craftsmen and artists of the highest degree imaginable. There are shops that sell sculptures made from burl that took 5-10 years to complete. The intricacy is simply astounding. So there is no reason to believe that one day there will be individual Chinese cue makers.

I guess you mean that there is no reason to believe that there wouldn't be individual ... In other words we would see individual Chinese cue makers which would most likely "stay in their own marked" ?

I simply do not see this happen. If a cue maker in China is producing a cue, I would bet you anything that the marked forces would rule and he would offer the cue to the highest bidder, where ever that may be...

N

 

[LC3]

Although there are plenty of cheap Chinese-made production cues to go around, many US custom cue makers still have long waiting lists and are approaching $1,000 for plain janes. It's a niche market fueled by people whose passion for pool compels them to the choicest equipment, or are passionate about the cues themselves. I'm not sure to what extent US frustration with Chinese undercutting in general would weigh in, but I think it would be a significant factor for many US buyers if they were made aware of it. I can't speak to non-US markets.

 

[skins]

There has been a discussion about CNC and custom work here; http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=91991&page=5

As Bob mention on his video, the V groves is usually cut in a Lathe with a router attached and possibly using power feed on the lathe. This is to make a short spliced forarm. The process involves turning on the power on the router and hitting the switch on the power feed.

Then you could do the exact same thing the way Bob do it on the video which for me still is a custom cue and custom way of producing the cue. Compared to the other method, I guess the CNC method most likely involved a longer preparation time than on a traditional lathe/router setup, since there need to be some kind of control of the CNC machine which is not a turn key solution. You don't just buy a big machine, turn it on and hit GO. It need to be programmed and learned before it's applied.
Bob makes some marvelous cues which I for sure would be proud to own.

I think what some one refers to as possible "not as sharp" is when you do inlayed points in the forarm. These would normally be rounded in the ends, but as mentioned else where on the forum, these could be "hand sharpened" afterwards to be razor sharp as well.

This applies also to inlays, where cumakers could make a pocket with a pantomill or a CNC machine and then sharpen these up to fit a sharp inlay.

N

i know the processes in detail. i've been involved with them for around 20 years and have been involved in many discussions about them here. just in case you didn't know you can mill pockets for inlays with machines that use cnc protocol that will fit "sharp" inlays perfectly. no need for "knifing" in the pocket.

.........as for ShootingArts comments, yes you will have a radiused end when using an end mill but not every rotating "bit" produces a flat bottom. there are tools that can do the anticipated hand work for you after roughing is complete. as for his comment:

"The generally accepted minimum diameter for a flat bottom hole or point with NC is .030 too. There are ways to get it smaller but then there is much more hand fitting to the inlays and the OD of the cue has to be spot on."

....well i've programed for end mills down to .004 with NO "hand fitting" ( i don't even get what that means. if you want to match the radius of the part with that of the pocket then theres no need for "hand fitting" ) so in other words it's easy to get "smaller"...... just finish the pocket off with a smaller mill (tool) to match the part. that being said you still need to know what you're doing to get a perfect fit.

and for the statement:

"NC equipment is great for roughing in work. It can do the finish work on inlays with very little hand work if we accept .030 diameter points as sharp. If we want razor sharp points, we are going to be doing some hand work."

......this is very misleading....flat bottom end mills can cut all PARTS sharp (no radius) because the end mill rides on the outside edge of the part being created. it's the pocket that can have radiused ends when using flat bottom end mills because it rides on the inside edge. even then you can finish off the pockets with smaller mills or different tools to match the smaller radius's or sharp ends of the parts with the same machine if you like. you don't have to accept .030 as your standard radius and most makers i know don't.

skins ---------- likes riding on the edge......

 

[thoffen]

IMO, not on the high end, which is where the value in the custom market is. The cue market is getting very saturated as is, even the domestic custom market. That is driving costs down (soft economy has a lot to do with it, too). Filipino cue makers cropped up a while back, and most of their value had to do with the ivory in their cues. Once customs started stepping in regularly, that market is depressed. I really don't see how a Chinese cue manufacturer can hope to break into the American high-end market.

 

[JoeyA]

First of all, I am not wealth by anyones standards. However, I am fortunate to have a decent income that includes my Military retirement. But, I am a very relaxed individual, to me I flaunt nothing. So without a doubt I would take the Toyota, in fact I drive a Toyota Tacoma as we speak.

What year?
JoeyA

 

[ShootingArts]

programming and shop practices

I can draw and program for almost anything. That doesn't mean it can be done in the shop. One of the things I did as the drawing checker in the local nuke was point out what wasn't possible or practical in shop practice. The bottom of the "V" isn't flat, it is rounded with a rotating cutting tool. Doesn't matter how your tool starts out, the corner is rounded in use. Carbide is rounded less and how much it is rounded depends on a lot of variables. Never-the-less in the real world there are no sharp inside corners in a rotating tool environment. You can cheat them various ways but they are never a 90 degree "V" to a sharp point. Wood doesn't cut that cleanly either.

Practical shop use and normal cue building procedures impose limitations. If enough people will pay thousands more for a cue I can use micro machining techniques that aren't possible from a practical standpoint. I have fit other things to .000025 or less. No typo on the zeroes, they were carefully counted. The normal cost per unit for the component I cut to basically zero tolerance is $3.00 or less. My selling price had I chosen to sell them would have been about $75 each and cheap at that price. They were a nightmare to make and some luck was involved with the initial set-up. Temperatures had to be tightly controlled for over twelve hours also. The components did help me better a world record with a rifle so it was worth it. I also laid a myth to rest that is given as fact in many an official manual.

My background is R&D, Mechanical Designer, CAD, and hands on Machinist amongst other things. I have also owned a machine shop and am currently in negotiations to own another. I'll debate what is possible and practical in a shop until the cows come home. I have to say you are the one that doesn't understand the realities of shop practices to produce even custom cues at a price that they can be sold at if you believe your above statements to be accurate concerning producing cues. Pay me $25,000 per cue and it would open up new possibilities as to how to make a cue, it wouldn't necessarily make a better cue however.

Hu

i know the processes in detail. i've been involved with them for around 20 years and have been involved in many discussions about them here. just in case you didn't know you can mill pockets for inlays with machines that use cnc protocol that will fit "sharp" inlays perfectly. no need for "knifing" in the pocket.

.........as for ShootingArts comments, yes you will have a radiused end when using an end mill but not every rotating "bit" produces a flat bottom. there are tools that can do the anticipated hand work for you after roughing is complete. as for his comment:

"The generally accepted minimum diameter for a flat bottom hole or point with NC is .030 too. There are ways to get it smaller but then there is much more hand fitting to the inlays and the OD of the cue has to be spot on."

....well i've programed for end mills down to .004 with NO "hand fitting" ( i don't even get what that means. if you want to match the radius of the part with that of the pocket then theres no need for "hand fitting" ) so in other words it's easy to get "smaller"...... just finish the pocket off with a smaller mill (tool) to match the part. that being said you still need to know what you're doing to get a perfect fit.

and for the statement:

"NC equipment is great for roughing in work. It can do the finish work on inlays with very little hand work if we accept .030 diameter points as sharp. If we want razor sharp points, we are going to be doing some hand work."

......this is very misleading....flat bottom end mills can cut all PARTS sharp (no radius) because the end mill rides on the outside edge of the part being created. it's the pocket that can have radiused ends when using flat bottom end mills because it rides on the inside edge. even then you can finish off the pockets with smaller mills or different tools to match the smaller radius's or sharp ends of the parts with the same machine if you like. you don't have to accept .030 as your standard radius and most makers i know don't.

skins ---------- likes riding on the edge......

 

[JoeyInCali]

IMO, not on the high end, which is where the value in the custom market is. The cue market is getting very saturated as is, even the domestic custom market. That is driving costs down (soft economy has a lot to do with it, too). Filipino cue makers cropped up a while back, and most of their value had to do with the ivory in their cues. Once customs started stepping in regularly, that market is depressed. I really don't see how a Chinese cue manufacturer can hope to break into the American high-end market.

I don't think so either.
It'd be easier to do in custom knives. No need to age wood. Just hammer on steel .

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

I think the are where money can be made if your work is good, is the repair business, you can capitolize on the cues made in China by repairing, and tipping them.

 

[eddieindetroit]

What do you think will be the fate of a company like Schon when the chiwanese manufacture about two million "schon" cues and dump em on shore in the US for $59.00 each? I doubt you will be able to discern the difference. Americans will damn sure buy the Walmart Schon for $59 instead of the original Schon at $850. McDermott, etc will go down the same way. US copyrights and trademarks don't mean squat to many nations in Asia.
Meanwhile, Since the Chinese are buying up all the maple, rosewood, ebony, etc, those few “nitch” American cue makers that are surviving on name and reputation will be paying 400% more for materials.

Factories have been closing in the US for the last 8 years so quickly it makes my head spin. Our national debt is impossible to fathom, and our trade deficit continues to soar.

You dollar in now worth about 30% of what it was eight years ago.

It's my belief that people are no more or less selfish or stupid than they were 70 years ago, but that the manner in which business is conducted over the last 30 years (virtually unregulated globalization) has created a situation in which individual selfishness and stupidity have terrible national consequences for the USA.

You cue makers that have tools from Harbor freight, grizzly, etc. in your shop.
You are one small variable in this large equation. You have screwed yourself.

 

[TheBook]

I totally agree with point with Motorcycles, but what about Automobiles. Toyota, Honda, and Mazda certainly have more of their market share.

How many of those (Toyota, Honda, and Mazda) older cars do you see still on the road?

Watch the Jackson Barrett auction and see what the prices are for those old American cars that people were complaining about.

The question was not only about market share but how will the prices hold up. The product may have more market share but there is still that niche for the smaller producer and still getting a premium price.

 

[LC3]

You cue makers that have tools from Harbor freight, grizzly, etc. in your shop. You are one small variable in this large equation. You have screwed yourself.

Excellent point! Then again, we're all guilty to a certain extent. We complain about the situation, then cave in and run to ChinaMart because what we want is 50 cents cheaper there. Not that everybody doing it is an excuse.

 

[skins]

I can draw and program for almost anything. That doesn't mean it can be done in the shop. One of the things I did as the drawing checker in the local nuke was point out what wasn't possible or practical in shop practice. The bottom of the "V" isn't flat, it is rounded with a rotating cutting tool. Doesn't matter how your tool starts out, the corner is rounded in use. Carbide is rounded less and how much it is rounded depends on a lot of variables. Never-the-less in the real world there are no sharp inside corners in a rotating tool environment. You can cheat them various ways but they are never a 90 degree "V" to a sharp point. Wood doesn't cut that cleanly either.

Practical shop use and normal cue building procedures impose limitations. If enough people will pay thousands more for a cue I can use micro machining techniques that aren't possible from a practical standpoint. I have fit other things to .000025 or less. No typo on the zeroes, they were carefully counted. The normal cost per unit for the component I cut to basically zero tolerance is $3.00 or less. My selling price had I chosen to sell them would have been about $75 each and cheap at that price. They were a nightmare to make and some luck was involved with the initial set-up. Temperatures had to be tightly controlled for over twelve hours also. The components did help me better a world record with a rifle so it was worth it. I also laid a myth to rest that is given as fact in many an official manual.

My background is R&D, Mechanical Designer, CAD, and hands on Machinist amongst other things. I have also owned a machine shop and am currently in negotiations to own another. I'll debate what is possible and practical in a shop until the cows come home. I have to say you are the one that doesn't understand the realities of shop practices to produce even custom cues at a price that they can be sold at if you believe your above statements to be accurate concerning producing cues. Pay me $25,000 per cue and it would open up new possibilities as to how to make a cue, it wouldn't necessarily make a better cue however.

Hu

did you see the link in my first post??? 90% v groove cutter used. the cutter does come to a, for all intensive purposes, inside edge with no "real" radius. there are many tools that can be used that will yield no radius for finishing work, i program for their use all the time. you're talking in micro exactitudes that aren't a big detriment to building even today's most intricate cues. as far as you saying i don't understand the realities, maybe i missed something but i didn't read anyone singling out these points for production cues sake. i'm talking machining for cues in general not ones based on a $200 price tag....there'd be no point in doing the fine work in those cues, you'd be out of business in a week. my point was that anything that can be finished by hand can be done with a machine using cnc technology and the right tool. my background by the way is as a CAD design and CNC programmer for 20+ years. 15 of those designing and code writing for cue production.


skins ------- understands the realities and boundries of cue production......

 

[RRfireblade]

Wow , so many builders , CNC guys and machinist here.

Does it count if I built my home CNCs from scratch with all hand tools and they all have sharp corners.

(true btw)

Anyway . . .

There are many cue building methods that can be replicated by CNC and show no difference from other methods. BUT . . . there are manual methods that can not be reproduced exclusively by CNC with the same results. That's pretty simple.

The more steps a builder takes to showcase that , the more value thier cues will hold.

 

[skins]

Anyway . . .

There are many cue building methods that can be replicated by CNC and show no difference from other methods. BUT . . . there are manual methods that can not be reproduced exclusively by CNC with the same results. That's pretty simple.

what things can be done "manually" that CAN'T be done by machine with the same results??