Wisdom & Rationale For Pulling Threads

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JB Cases said:
No, escrow is supposed to be a service that withholds the money until the escrow service determines that the product is as advertised.

In cues the escrow service should be chosen based on their ability to be trusted by both parties to accurately judge the condition of the cue before releasing any funds to the buyer.

If the escrow service allowed a cue to pass through which was not as advertised then they should have to eat the cue and refund the buyer's money. Otherwise the service was not provided and is worthless.
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John I agree with you completely, but that is not what happened and like I said the forum member who did the escrow is a respected member. My point is even escrow is not a perfect fix, just like I-trader and any other system, sometimes those who have everyones names and information need to get involved in some small way, by Pm or Phone call. I think when a number of people are having similar problems with another member if the right people take an interest some of these dog pile threads could be averted.

However, by taking no action in my opinion presents the wrong impression, like no one really cares, which I do not think is true. I just think there are ways to deal with these problems that could stop much of the public airing and drama.

Take Care John
 
Mr. Wilson said:
Ken, you see....the problem with slinging crap, sometimes it gets on you too.

I have yet to see or hear anything more compelling in your side of the story than his.

Have you something that is so convincing that I should reconsider?
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Mr.Wilson -

I do not "sling crap". PMs sent.

Best Wishes,
 
rossaroni said:
What if the cue is lost or damaged when using an escrow service?
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It is the sellers responsibility until the cue is delivered and excepted by the buyer, even with escrow the item must insured by the seller and it is his responsibility to deal with the refund process not the buyers.

JIMO
 
There is only one perfect way. Buy in person only. I will not buy a cue unless I've seen it in my hands. Period. No escrow service needed. That's just my personal preference tho.
 
Mr. Wilson said:
Too often, people cannot resist the urge to dogpile.
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Here's an idea that's been presented before. Lock the thread down before it gets out of hand. Put up a rule stating that only directly involved parties can air their side and enforce it.

Mr. Wilson said:
The thread in question had no value. There was no content worth sharing and was trash through and through.
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We can agree to disagree but Shirley you can't be serious????? I thought there were a lot of insight to person(s) involved. And, I wonder if any actions would have been taken at all without these threads popping up.

Mr. Wilson said:
Then there are the ones who would claim censorship.
Let's be very clear here...this is a private business. Everyone here is a guest.
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I'm not a ****ing guest. I'm a contributing member of a forum, both financially and through contents. A forum is only good as it's members and contents that are brought to it, IMHO.

Mr. Wilson said:
If I think you are hurting AZB, I will act.
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No offense but it's through actions taken on prevous threads that threads like this one gets started. Obviously, many contributing members, including myself, don't agree with the actions being taken and want to be heard.

I'm curious if your position on this matter is your own POV or is the position of AZ forum owners?

I've always defended the right of the owners to run the forum anyway they like it but lately I have been very disappointed with the direction of forum moderation/censorship that seems to protect the guilty and hurt the contributing members (IMHO).

On the recent situation, I happen to personally know one of the party (Cyrex) locally in my area. I think he's a person of integrity and I have high respect for him. Beside having good looking gf, playing decent guitar, making ok looking cases, and preaching CTE to a lost cause (me), he contributes to pool world and is a founding father of West Coast Cue Show which he puts his own time and money into. He also happens to be great contributing member of this forum as well. And to see him get f'd over and disrespected like this ... well, it's simply wrong.
 
Wow. Great post Hidy ho.

First of all. No one is getting screwed over. I guess you have a hard time reading these words. I never gave Rex a completion date of 45 days. If you think a cuemaker can build a cue from scratch in 45 days you are as crazy as Rex. He deff misunderstood our conversation. That still doesn't equate into him getting screwed over. I have never given one customer a 100% definite completion date and never will. Any date given is a guestimate at best. Rex will get his cue when it is completed. If he declines the cue I will sell it and refund his deposit less the difference.

Secondly. All 3 thread were started saying I stole mOney from him. We all know this not to be true. He recieved his items damaged by ups and started the claims process himself. Without my product returned I an not obligated to refund one penny.

Maybe you can understand this for the 80th time.
 
I also want to add Mario asked for the refund check to be sent directly to him. Ups made out a refund check to him on thursday and mailed it to him directly. I have done everything Mario asked of me. Except refund him immediately. Again which I am not obligated to do without my product returned.
 
Mr. Wilson said:
In a nut shell:

Too often, people cannot resist the urge to dogpile. They see the spectacle of an open flame and feel compelled to add fuel to the fire.

You have people starting threads about how they were ripped off etc..and find that they filed claims via ups etc.

Once a claim was filed, I don't see what the issue is or why is is being dragged out in public here.

People also have some misconceptions about how much time is comsumed by AZB for some of us. I do not intend to sift through hundreds of posts editing out stuff just so the curious can view the spectacle.


The thread in question had no value. There was no content worth sharing and was trash through and through.

Then there are the ones who would claim censorship.
Let's be very clear here...this is a private business. Everyone here is a guest.

If I think you are hurting AZB, I will act.
I don't think I should need to explain every detail of "why" because frankly, if the people asking why don't get it already, they still won't after wasting my time with an explaination.

As far as the other altruistic posters who feel they are protecting new posters from the evils of whomever...save it.

If you really want to help insure anyone is treated right, have them read the guidlines that are posted and direct them to a reputable escrow service.


Dave
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That's an interesting way to look at it. Since you're the Mod & as you say, this is a business & I'm just a guest, I'll repect your decision.


But since I'm just a guest, I sure won't be buying any more Club Memberships here.
 
Mr. Wilson said:
In a nut shell:

Too often, people cannot resist the urge to dogpile. They see the spectacle of an open flame and feel compelled to add fuel to the fire.

You have people starting threads about how they were ripped off etc..and find that they filed claims via ups etc.

Once a claim was filed, I don't see what the issue is or why is is being dragged out in public here.

People also have some misconceptions about how much time is comsumed by AZB for some of us. I do not intend to sift through hundreds of posts editing out stuff just so the curious can view the spectacle.


The thread in question had no value. There was no content worth sharing and was trash through and through.

Then there are the ones who would claim censorship.
Let's be very clear here...this is a private business. Everyone here is a guest.

If I think you are hurting AZB, I will act.
I don't think I should need to explain every detail of "why" because frankly, if the people asking why don't get it already, they still won't after wasting my time with an explaination.

As far as the other altruistic posters who feel they are protecting new posters from the evils of whomever...save it.

If you really want to help insure anyone is treated right, have them read the guidlines that are posted and direct them to a reputable escrow service.


Dave
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I'll be honest with you folks, all this time I've been here I thought I was a member. Maybe not a paying member, but a member none the less. Turns out I'm only a guest.
All I can say is I'm glad I didn't shell out any of the old hard earned to become a "Club Guest".
 
dave sutton said:
Wow. Great post Hidy ho.

First of all. No one is getting screwed over. I guess you have a hard time reading these words. I never gave Rex a completion date of 45 days. If you think a cuemaker can build a cue from scratch in 45 days you are as crazy as Rex. He deff misunderstood our conversation. That still doesn't equate into him getting screwed over. I have never given one customer a 100% definite completion date and never will. Any date given is a guestimate at best. Rex will get his cue when it is completed. If he declines the cue I will sell it and refund his deposit less the difference.

Secondly. All 3 thread were started saying I stole mOney from him. We all know this not to be true. He recieved his items damaged by ups and started the claims process himself. Without my product returned I an not obligated to refund one penny.

Maybe you can understand this for the 80th time.
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Kickin' Chicken,
Thanks for posting this thoughtful thread and thanks to everyone who took time to post in a civil discussion on a sensitive topic.
By the feedback, it was definitely something in the air that needed to be cleared.

AZ House Pro: Thank you for the enlightenment. I have indeed learned that this is a business site and that we are all just guests here. Thanks for your time as always.

Dave,
I think Ho is having a hard time understanding what you're saying because it's simply not true.
I've known Ho for many years and have had countless cue transactions/discussions/debates with him. I'm quite sure he would know (and say) if I was at fault in any way here.

The cue wasn't started 'from scratch'. If you recall from the initial picture you sent me, the forearm was already turned turned and cored. The butt sleeve was also already turned and ready. Hence, why you told me the cue would be done fast.. 45 days (not a random time I made up). Also, in the email you sent me (yes, I have everything saved) you told me you lost your job and had to move which is why my cue and others were backed up. That is when you should have offered me a refund. That has nothing to do with build times. That's YOUR PERSONAL life holding up your customer's personal life.

As I said before, when I have received my full refund I will absolutely post what an honorable guy you are.

~Rex <--- can't use an escrow service for a cue that doesn't exist
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clubmember.jpg


P.S.
Dave Sutton said:
There is only one perfect way. Buy in person only. I will not buy a cue unless I've seen it in my hands. Period. No escrow service needed. That's just my personal preference tho.
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Not even you would order a cue from yourself. Wish you would have given me this advice when I sent you my money.
 
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tramp steamer said:
all i can say is i'm glad i didn't shell out any of the old hard earned to become a "club guest".
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+1...........

i guess i should clarify and say i understand what he meant when he said we were guests. meaning that the site is not ours, not owned by us, and we are all here on a potentially temporary basis (ie. should we be banned). but as often in life it's not what you say it's how you say it and that just came across as rude.
i understand the need for outright attacks to be stopped and if deleating the thread is the easiest way so be it. however i also want the ability to read how people conduct themselves and their transactions. wilson's take on always use escrow is fine if you are buying something used, but it does nothing for new or custom items. how else would i know not to buy a case from chaz or a cue from eddie wheat if it had not been for the threads involving them. yes the personal attacks on them sucked but on the other hand they weren't reputable people. you can't escrow a custom case or cue. you have to give the maker whatever deposit they request and hope for the best.
and as far as dave goes, he may be in the right, nothing may his fault but i definately don't like how he handled things. based on that i wouldn't buy anything from him. which, it is very possible, would be my loss. but that's my choice and it's based on what i saw in those threads. i'm sorry dave and that's not an attack on you, it's just how i feel based on how you responded in those threads.
 
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Mr. Wilson said:
Then there are the ones who would claim censorship.
Let's be very clear here...this is a private business. Everyone here is a guest.

Dave
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I agree with most of what you said, but this is ridiculous. Without the paying members, sponsors, etc I highly doubt this site would be successful at all, or be as big as it is.

No, I don't think because I am a paying member I deserve special privileges...but that dictatorship tone is uncalled for. Yes, we get it you are a mod and you have supreme reign on the forum with the power of banning, deleting posts etc. Just remember that some of us add content to this forum, spread the word about it, and pay for a membership. So, because I pay, and someone else doesn't does that mean I deserve better treatment? Nope...but take away 100s of members at $30 or whatever it is for a year....you do the math. It adds up towards helping this site succeed and sometimes we would like answers that actually sound like you care at least the slightest bit.
 
The forum may be owned by AZ, but the content is produced by members. We are not guests, we are active (unpaid) contributors who clearly can be "fired" :wink:.

I'm sure it's not easy being a moderator. It would be a thankless job. I agree with Hidy that my preference would be the moderators lock contentious threads, but only delete them in a "worst case scenario" when they become extremely derogatory and slanderous. Basically a locked thread can't be bumped, so in time the thread will be buried anyway and the searches will not come up first-off.

This is just a suggestion off the top of my head - I haven't given it a lot of thought.

Chris
 
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Ladies and Gentlemen, I think Wilson owes us an apology, or at least an explanation for our being only "Guests" on this forum, rather than members which I'm sure we all thought we were.
I'm also a little incensed as to the rather smug way this information was presented to us. The "like it or lump it", "love it or leave it", "my way or the highway", attitude.
I don't believe the good people of this forum deserve this sort of attitude from someone who is in the position he is in. Respect works both ways.
And, forgive me if I seem to be piling on.
 
I'm not sure we aren't just maybe misunderstanding Mr Wilson's use or the word "guest" ? I'm thinking (hoping) maybe he meant that those posting in that thread that had no business with Dave (just rendering an opinion) were guests in that thread, rather than him referring to all us members as his guests (which I hope he wasn't because as plenty of guys have pointed out, that feels kinda crummy).

Anyway, I agree with the idea that locking the thread may be a better solution than deleting it, otherwise that decision gets left in the hands of folks who aren't really paying attention (as Mr Wilson showed pretty aptly by his suggestion that escrow would have helped the situations in question), but, as Mr Wilson perhaps pointed out, we are just all guests (a paid one in my case too) and we have no say in the matter.

Thanks

Kevin
 
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being an administrator or mod and voting with our feet

I think I'm in a pretty good position to comment here. I have been a moderator for a handful of forums over the years, one about the same size as AZB. I also co-owned a smaller forum that was still active enough it took over forty hours a week to administer it.

By the time a thread has clearly gone south it takes a good bit of editing before you can just lock it down. I sometimes did this if I had time. It was a hell of a lot faster to whack a thread. Many threads or posts were clearly in violation of the ROE. When somebody asked why their content was pulled my answer was simply read the ROE. If it was a longer term member they already knew why it was pulled.

Unfortunately there are a ton of other messages and threads. They are skimming along in a gray area. They need baby-sitting for hours at a time, maybe all night, but it is debateable if they should be whacked or not. Finally a decision has to be made. It's a judgment call and like all judgment calls dozens of intangibles can go into the decision. Very similar content may fall on one side of a call one time, the other side another time. That isn't 100% fair but it is as fair as a human being can make it if they use their best judgment and do their best to exclude personal bias. I often had to delete friend's posts, even the owners of the large site I moderated for too, while leaving content from people that I thought were great smelly jackasses but their posts had stayed inside the ROE.

The other side of the coin is that we(guests, members, contributers, paying members, however we want to see ourselves) can vote with our feet. If we don't like things here we don't have to let the gate hit us in the ass. That is why my posts have fallen off about 75% in the last months. I objected to some things and left. I come here when I'm unable to leave the house for a few days for one reason or another or killing time. At the moment I am battling a trojan while typing this long post. Damned if I know why they named trojans after a condom, I'm screwed and it sure wasn't safe sex!! More like rape, maybe they should call these things Tysons?

A serious suggestion to all; when a thread disappears, read the Rules Of Engagement for the forum. If it isn't apparent why the thread disappeared then a polite PM might satisfy your curiosity. I was a mod for about ten years, there isn't enough money to pay me to be a mod for AZB, much less do it for free. Just as well, I'm a pretty black and white kind of guy with few shades of gray. A lot more threads would be whacked if I were mod and probably more bans issued.

Found track marks from the trojan 13 places. Time for me to get back to my rat killing. Anyone expecting e-mail or PM replies from me, the computer hosed and not being here to jack with it has kept me busy for a few days.

Hu
 
Hu, my friend, it's good to hear from you.
Next time be sure and use Miracle Condoms. I swear by 'em. Remember: "If it's a good condom, it's a Miracle". :)

I agree with what you said. The Mods job is oftimes a thankless one, but more than anything it's the attitude that rubs me a bit raw.
 
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