Women vs Men

[Masayoshi]

The number one reason women can't match the men is that the female talent pool is far too small. The second reason is physical strength. True, pool is a finesse game, but having power makes tends to make finesse easier as well as long as it is controlled power.

I have known many female players who just don't have the power to hit a table length draw. I have never met a non-elderly man who lacked the power to hit a table length draw (accuracy is another story, but accuracy is much easier to fix than a lack of strength).

While this may not seem like much of an advantage because table length draw rarely comes up, it actually is an advantage because not having the stroke to produce a good amount of draw means that that player's comfort zone is that much smaller than the person who can draw the rock. Medium draw for the person who can't draw a table length would end up being a difficult shot while being basically a hanger for the person who can draw. At the higher levels, stroke is basically 90% of the game.

Of course, most of the top women and some not so top women can draw the rock, but the fact that a sizeable percentage of women physically can't, reduces an already small talent pool to basically only a handful of players that have what it takes to become even an A player.

 

[BasementDweller]

I mentioned this topic to my wife last night and she came right out and said - "you know why men are better than woman at pool? It's because men are so single minded." According to her, we are better at focusing all of our attention on a single matter. While a woman is constantly thinking of multiple things/tasks that she needs to complete. Of course her understanding of men is largely based on her understanding of me and I can attest to the fact that I can be very single minded when it comes to certain subjects :thumbup:

I do think there is something to this though. That's not to say that top female players don't overcome this -- they obviously do. But generally speaking I would think this would be an issue that woman would have to deal with more so than men.

Don't shoot the messenger
:nanner:

 

[mantis99]

What is your question?

If you ask me, all the evidence points to women not being as good at pool because they aren't exposed as much as men. Chess I think is a better "sport" to compare the two sexes. There is no inherent advantage there for certain, yet we see the same patterns. Again, it's probably from lack of exposure. Only time will tell how good they will get relative to men, perhaps they'll be better one day, who knows.

Agreed! Way more men play pool seriously than women, thus it only makes sense that there will be more good male players.

 

[JMW]

Agreed! Way more men play pool seriously than women, thus it only makes sense that there will be more good male players.

Agreed! Way more men chew tobacco seriously than women, thus it only makes sense that there will be more good male tobacco spitters.:smile:

 

[snarzberry]

I don't post here often but this question is in my field, biology, so I can't resist offering a somewhat unusual, for this board, answer. It's my professional opinion take it for what you will .

The, perhaps surprising, answer to why men are generally superior to women in competitive pursuits, even in activities that do not favor the males increased strength, actually comes down to the nature of sex and sexual reproduction.

It might sound far fetched but there are some well established dynamics at work here, and they apply to all sexually reproducing animals not just humans.

Sexual reproduction is asymmetrical. The female, once fertilization has occurred, is in a sense 'locked in' to providing resources to the unborn child and then rearing the baby to the point that it can fend for itself. Males provide sperm for fertilization but are not essentially committed to providing more resources to any one potential child unless the female has arranged that this is in the males best interests long term. In biology this is called 'the battle of the sexes' and is why some female birds will not copulate with a male until he's built a nest and so forth. The same dynamic is at work in countless species to varying degrees, including humans.

This is why females are driven to be selective and males are driven to be promiscuous.

Male sexually reproducing animals are compelled to be impressive in order to convince a female to select him. Females are compelled to be selective to get the very best genes on offer.

The human male is driven to try to out-compete other human males because sub-consciously there is a genetic influence that makes him want to appear better than those around him in the mating pool. Even though you probably aren't aware that this is going on it explains a great deal of human culture and interaction.

The end result is that far more males have the inner desire to obsess over an activity/game/sport or whatever to display excellence or dominance than do females. This in no way precludes women from having a competitive spirit or excelling at sport, it just means far more men have the natural inclination to and will dedicate more of their time and energy.

 

[measureman]

I don't post here often but this question is in my field, biology, so I can't resist offering a somewhat unusual, for this board, answer. It's my professional opinion take it for what you will .

The, perhaps surprising, answer to why men are generally superior to women in competitive pursuits, even in activities that do not favor the males increased strength, actually comes down to the nature of sex and sexual reproduction.

It might sound far fetched but there are some well established dynamics at work here, and they apply to all sexually reproducing animals not just humans.

Sexual reproduction is asymmetrical. The female, once fertilization has occurred, is in a sense 'locked in' to providing resources to the unborn child and then rearing the baby to the point that it can fend for itself. Males provide sperm for fertilization but are not essentially committed to providing more resources to any one potential child unless the female has arranged that this is in the males best interests long term. In biology this is called 'the battle of the sexes' and is why some female birds will not copulate with a male until he's built a nest and so forth. The same dynamic is at work in countless species to varying degrees, including humans.

This is why females are driven to be selective and males are driven to be promiscuous.

Male sexually reproducing animals are compelled to be impressive in order to convince a female to select him. Females are compelled to be selective to get the very best genes on offer.

The human male is driven to try to out-compete other human males because sub-consciously there is a genetic influence that makes him want to appear better than those around him in the mating pool. Even though you probably aren't aware that this is going on it explains a great deal of human culture and interaction.

The end result is that far more males have the inner desire to obsess over an activity/game/sport or whatever to display excellence or dominance than do females. This in no way precludes women from having a competitive spirit or excelling at sport, it just means far more men have the natural inclination to and will dedicate more of their time and energy.

Huh? Does this mean men are more apt to want free water then women?
This makes no sense to me at all.Ether you can play or you can't.It's just that simple.

 

[Jaden]

men on average having better visual spatial accuity,

I do not know why men seem better at games/sports that don't rely on physical strength for success. But its true, men are better at:

pool
darts
golf (putting too)
bowling
free throw shooting
horse shoes

God made 'em pretty, so we'd like 'em.
Made them curvy, so we'd like 'em.
Gave them a sexy way, so we'd like 'em.
And made them stupid, so they'd like us men.

All of those sports require high levels of visual spatial acuity and men are better at it on average.

It is anthropological, men had to be able to hunt.

Jaden

 

[DD Custom Cues]

If the only thing holding women back is a big break and power draw shots maybe its time to introduce steriods to women pool players. lol.....:rotflmao:

 

[3kushn]

I don't think anyone of us has seen the best of the best. Not taking away anything, but, we've only seen players that either can afford to compete or are sponsored. How many people are there in Asia? How many women play but only make $300/year.

I watched a World Cup 3C event last week held in Seoul Korea. Many players I'd never heard of plus in the chat area someone mentioned 40,000 Carom tables within 100 miles of Seoul. That's more Tables than we have Players in the USA.

 

[inside_english]

lolololololol

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Nature + nurture + math.

Pool takes great physical coordination, which girls have less of than boys because (1) they're born with less physical capacity generally and (2) they aren't "valued" from birth based on their performance in physical pursuits (like boys are). This results in a much smaller talent pool.

pj
chgo

P.S. This is exacerbated by the "low class" image that pool has had, another roadblock to girls' participation.

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

And how would she match up against HAddad, in your opinion?

Mark is the better player, however, I've seen Melissa hold her own many times against everyone else here in Colorado playing 9 or 10-ball.

 

[Celtic]

I say she can compete against any man right now!

But would you bet on her against the top men? Race to 100 vs Orcullo, SVB, Pagulayan, Yang, Wu? Would you bet even close to even on a match like that? If not what type of realistic and honest games on the wire would you need to make the bet?

She can sometimes compete against the men in tournament matches, relatively short races, heck Yu Ram Cha beat SVB in the BCA Open 10-ball about 2 or 3 years ago. What the women are less likely to do is win a long challenge match, or win an entire event with the men. Keeping it real, any reasonably good A player has a chance to beat a pro in a single race to 9 or 11 if they get hot. That A-player is less likely to win the US-Open 9-ball and they are not going to be playing SVB in the next $20,000 race to 100 10-ball on TAR and if they did the betting line would be 30+ games on the wire.

People like to "say" that the top women can compete against the top men, but it is always just words and they are never willing to go any farther then that because despite their "words" they KNOW what the reality is when it gets right down to it.

 

[real bartram]

But would you bet on her against the top men? Race to 100 vs Orcullo, SVB, Pagulayan, Yang, Wu? Would you bet even close to even on a match like that? If not what type of realistic and honest games on the wire would you need to make the bet?

She can sometimes compete against the men in tournament matches, relatively short races, heck Yu Ram Cha beat SVB in the BCA Open 10-ball about 2 or 3 years ago. What the women are less likely to do is win a long challenge match, or win an entire event with the men. Keeping it real, any reasonably good A player has a chance to beat a pro in a single race to 9 or 11 if they get hot. That A-player is less likely to win the US-Open 9-ball and they are not going to be playing SVB in the next $20,000 race to 100 10-ball on TAR and if they did the betting line would be 30+ games on the wire.

People like to "say" that the top women can compete against the top men, but it is always just words and they are never willing to go any farther then that because despite their "words" they KNOW what the reality is when it gets right down to it.

here it is.
ill play any girl for up to 50 k even.

 

[Celtic]

Agreed! Way more men play pool seriously than women, thus it only makes sense that there will be more good male players.

In my city it is probably 15/1 or 20/1 men vs women who play pool competitively. I am guessing that worldwide this is probably pretty close to the same ratio given the Vegas events and number of female players/teams.

Given that ratio the women should have SOMEONE in the top 20 of players worldwide, but they realistically don't. There is a list of 20 top male players that I could put together and there is noone who would realistically put up money on any female beating any single one of those men in a race to 100 in 9-ball or 10-ball. Heck, one could make a list of 40 men, the Phillipines alone has 10 male players that no female player on this planet is realistically going to have a chance against in a race to 100, and China/Taiwan easily doubles that. Europe for sure has 10, and North America has quite afew as well.

Even a guy like Jason Klatt, he is not ranked hugely high, there are certainly male players who would be considered better, but would ANYONE put the top female player in the world in their mind against him in a race to 100 on TAR? If that was to go off Klatt would be a HEAVY betting favorite and a line with games on the wire would be the standard in no time.

Generally speaking from what I have seen it is mostly in the stroke, the reason the women cannot compete with the men is that they have very conservative strokes and in general very conservative games. As a group the professional women spin the ball far less then the men and use angles more, they cinch balls and scramble in racks where a male pro will stroke a ball in with spin to get back on shape for the remainder of the rack. On wide open racks the women can look great, and they are. But when the racks get tough? When things start needing some stroke, the difference in the way the men and women play start to show.

That conservative game can win on the womens tour, but it cannot win tournaments or long challenge matches with the men. You are simply not going to win a US-Open beating Lee Van Cortezza, Mika Immonen, Thorsten Hohmann, Alex P, and Rodeny Morris in consecutive matches playing it safe and conservative like that, you might beat one of them if they go off their game, but one of those guys playing a far less conservative game and stroking the ball well is going to demolish the safe and conservative game with a 7-pack and the remainder of the games as cleanup. That is why a woman playing the way most do will NEVER win the US-Open, they need to change the way they play and start to let their strokes out.

Every male player goes through a stage where they realize they cannot compete cinching balls and playing conservatively, they need to let their strokes out and shoot, and male players miss some shots and have to spend thousands of hours of practice and competing to get used to putting that huge stroke on the ball with all that spin and STILL being acurate and potting the ball, or we flat out cannot win against the other male players out there. The women skip it, because atm they don't need that extra level on their tour, few women on the tour truly stroke the ball or play close shape like the top men in the world do, and that is why they cannot compete with the top men at this time.

 

[real bartram]

Johnny got it right. There are several women today who have had success against the men, including Jeanette, Allison, Jasmin and especially Karen Corr. In China there are three or four young women who may be playing at the highest level of any women ever. I saw Si Meng Chen play and forgot I was watching a woman. Perfect cue ball, great pocketing and cool under fire. If she ever gets the chance she may takes women's pool to a whole new level. I say she can compete against any man right now! I'd like to see her in all the open tournaments, including the Predator. She can compete on this level and have a chance with anyone!

i know where any of them can play a set with an avg
pro player for up to 50 k.

 

[Celtic]

here it is.
ill play any girl for up to 50 k even.

Can I take $1000 of your side?

Jay, bet?

 

[real bartram]

Can I take $1000 of your side?

Jay, bet?

if the game ever goes down yes.

 

[jay helfert]

But would you bet on her against the top men? Race to 100 vs Orcullo, SVB, Pagulayan, Yang, Wu? Would you bet even close to even on a match like that? If not what type of realistic and honest games on the wire would you need to make the bet?

She can sometimes compete against the men in tournament matches, relatively short races, heck Yu Ram Cha beat SVB in the BCA Open 10-ball about 2 or 3 years ago. What the women are less likely to do is win a long challenge match, or win an entire event with the men. Keeping it real, any reasonably good A player has a chance to beat a pro in a single race to 9 or 11 if they get hot. That A-player is less likely to win the US-Open 9-ball and they are not going to be playing SVB in the next $20,000 race to 100 10-ball on TAR and if they did the betting line would be 30+ games on the wire.

People like to "say" that the top women can compete against the top men, but it is always just words and they are never willing to go any farther then that because despite their "words" they KNOW what the reality is when it gets right down to it.

Tell you what I'll do, if this particular woman (Si Meng Chen) plays in any open tournament, anywhere in the world, I will bet on her in EVERY match she plays. I don't care if she is playing Godzilla! I have no idea if she would play a challenge match against anyone. I don't know that much about her, but if I ever hear that she is in a challenge match, I wouldn't be afraid to bet on her.

IMO, if she plays against a top player and wins, it would not be a fluke. There are other Asian women right now who play close to her speed, but I think she is the best of the bunch. She has more natural skills than any woman I've ever seen play pool, Balukas included! To keep it current, she is the Lexi Thompson of the pool world.

There is something about the way Si Meng goes about her business that is different, very different than any woman I ever saw before. Only Balukas, Jasmin and Karen Corr had a somewhat similar attitude when playing men. They get up there and play their best pool. Several other women (Jeanette gambling, Jasmin, Gerda, Allison, Kelly) are also quite capable when facing men players. I'd like to see Si Meng play in open tournaments like Jasmin has done. I think she would open a lot of eyes. She has no fear!

 

[jay helfert]

i know where any of them can play a set with an avg
pro player for up to 50 k.

Chris, once again I have no idea if she gambles at pool. Probably not. That is not the only yardstick for greatness imo. I will add this. I think you are a better than average tournament player going by your most recent results. If you should ever have to play a match against this one particular woman I will gladly make a friendly wager on her.
Say $250.

By the way, if you ever went to the Philippines, Japan, Taiwan or China I'm sure you would get all the action you ever wanted and then some. You would have no trouble finding a game and betting high. That I can assure you. And yes, they will handicap games, usually giving up games on the wire. They like to play long races there for the cash. Rarely will you see an ahead set. This way, someone wins at some point. There are no prolonged matches. I'd also bet that if you found a way to get into China and found the said young lady, you could find a lot of people they would give you action playing her as well. Just my gut feeling about that with no real information.

Chris, you base your comments on what you know right now, but if you ever saw Si Meng play, you might feel a bit different. She moves the cue ball like a good player and shoots the same. In the Philippines she would be a Tier 2 player, just under Dennis, Lee Van, Francisco and Ronnie.