World Pool-Billiard Association

Steve Lipsky

Steve Lipsky

On quest for perfect 14.1
Silver Member
I'm trying to understand the WPA's role in both domestic pool and international pool. I want to make clear - I write this thread with absolutely no intent to either malign them or laud them. I simply have little idea what they do and would like to learn.

I went to their website and, unfortunately, it's not terribly helpful. I was able to find their constitution, which is a lot of fluff written in legalese (example: "To cultivate mutual friendships with all other types of international and national billiards organizations."). Their "aims" and "objectives" were in many cases not very specific.

I've tried looking through AZB for info but their search function won't recognize a 3-letter search term.

One thing the WPA can definitely improve upon, in my opinion, is marketing their idea and purpose a little better. I think the BCA is the US (North American?) "wing" of the WPA, but I really don't know if the BCA belongs to the WPA, or the WPA created the BCA as the American version of its brand. I'm guessing the former. I'm curious to know if the BCAPL needs WPA approval to hold their annual amateur tournaments in Vegas or their round-the-year leagues across the country? If they don't, what is the advantage to the BCA of being a WPA member? Is it just that we get to send certain players to international championships? What does the BCA pay to the WPA annually for this right?

I definitely think pool needs an international sanctioning body. So I'm very interested in hearing from some experts on this, to help us all (or at least me) learn where the WPA is succeeding and where it is lagging. Again, they need to expend some more effort on their US marketing; the general opinion of them among most of the players I know is either not even knowing who they are, or thinking they do very little for US pool.

Finally, if they're not doing as much for US pool as they could, is that our fault or theirs?

Thanks to all.

- Steve
 
Someone needs to better explain why they wouldn't sanction the upcoming 14.1 event at Comet. So, if $$$ was short--- so what. Is it better to have the event with what was available or to refuse sanctioning?

The WPA, in my opinion, should have let the PROS decide if they would attend considering there wasn't an alternative 14.1 event over the same time slot. Their decision, to me, was extremely arrogant and short-sighted.

If I recall in an earlier thread, the WPA was quoted as saying they won't recognize any world championship other than WPA-sanctioned ones--- even championships that were held before they existed.

I could care less if the entire world flames me... but the business IQ of this lot of people is in the negatives. For every reason someone can think of that backs up the WPA's actions, I could list 5-10 why it makes no sense for the sport. To say a world championship won by Sigel, Hopkins or Hall doesn't count back in the day is ludicrous.

I'm all for a governing body for pool--- I just wish it wasn't the WPA--- or, at the very least....wasn't their management.

As Grady would say.... stick that up your wickey. ;) :thumbup:
 
I'm a little unclear of exactly the WPA's roles, responsibilities and power too. It seems every time I read a thread on the politics of pool it all just gets murkier instead of more clear.

I can respond to a couple of things though. THE BCA (Billiard Congress of America) is not a wing of the WPA. THE BCA has been in existence long before the WPA was created.

As for the BCA Pool League, or BCAPL (a privately owned business enterprise and no relation to the Billiard Congress of America), I'm pretty sure they neither seek sanctioning nor consult with the WPA in regard to the tournaments they run.
 
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The reason you have a problem understanding the WPA is for the exact same reason that the entire world of cue sports languishes in the doldrums year after year - There is not enough prize money available to support a world-wide Professional sport. It is as simple as that. Everything else is just pissing in the wind.

To say it yet again, the IPT proved this beyond a shadow of a doubt. Every Pro in the world who could hold their stick straight was jumping aboard and the WPA, UPA, BCA, WPBA and everyone else could do nothing but just stand there with their respective genitals in their hands and watch. (Or, of course, they could come on here and nay-say it a bit.)

And no, I don't believe for one minute that if the WPA had made a deal to sanction the IPT events that it still wouldn't have fallen apart the way it did, because that too was all to do with the money (or lack thereof) and nothing to do with whether or not an official WPA obermeister was supervising the dispersement of organic vegetarian snacks from a plush hotel suite.

And yes, if you don't like the job the WPA is doing and can get hold of a few million of spare cash you don't mind throwing away you too can OWN Pro pool, lock stock and barrel.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Someone needs to better explain why they wouldn't sanction the upcoming 14.1 event at Comet. So, if $$$ was short--- so what. Is it better to have the event with what was available or to refuse sanctioning?

The WPA, in my opinion, should have let the PROS decide if they would attend considering there wasn't an alternative 14.1 event over the same time slot. Their decision, to me, was extremely arrogant and short-sighted.

If I recall in an earlier thread, the WPA was quoted as saying they won't recognize any world championship other than WPA-sanctioned ones--- even championships that were held before they existed.

I could care less if the entire world flames me... but the business IQ of this lot of people is in the negatives. For every reason someone can think of that backs up the WPA's actions, I could list 5-10 why it makes no sense for the sport. To say a world championship won by Sigel, Hopkins or Hall doesn't count back in the day is ludicrous.

I'm all for a governing body for pool--- I just wish it wasn't the WPA--- or, at the very least....wasn't their management.

As Grady would say.... stick that up your wickey. ;) :thumbup:
Click to expand...


Ok, I'll try to explain some of WPA in another post, but first this.

IF the WPA sanctions a tournament as a World Championship many players and countries feel like they should play in it, and the countries/players will make the trip to that tournament.

How can you then justify having a World Championships with $ 10,000 first price, when people need to travel all over the world to compete?

What would you say if there was a World 1-pocket Championships sanctioned in Xiamen, China in October. First price $ 10,000.

How many Europeans would go? No one

How many Americans would go? No one

Would you consider it a World Championship?

The WPA wants World Championships to be REAL World Championships with for example enough pricemoney to make it worth the trip for people all over the world.
 
AuntyDan said:
The reason you have a problem understanding the WPA is for the exact same reason that the entire world of cue sports languishes in the doldrums year after year - There is not enough prize money available to support a world-wide Professional sport. It is as simple as that. Everything else is just pissing in the wind.

To say it yet again, the IPT proved this beyond a shadow of a doubt. Every Pro in the world who could hold their stick straight was jumping aboard and the WPA, UPA, BCA, WPBA and everyone else could do nothing but just stand there with their respective genitals in their hands and watch. (Or, of course, they could come on here and nay-say it a bit.)

And no, I don't believe for one minute that if the WPA had made a deal to sanction the IPT events that it still wouldn't have fallen apart the way it did, because that too was all to do with the money (or lack thereof) and nothing to do with whether or not an official WPA obermeister was supervising the dispersement of organic vegetarian snacks from a plush hotel suite.

And yes, if you don't like the job the WPA is doing and can get hold of a few million of spare cash you don't mind throwing away you too can OWN Pro pool, lock stock and barrel.
Click to expand...

I pray to God... I wish I may... I wish I might.... win this nitty $250million Power Ball tonight because I'd take $20 million and own world wide pool.
 
The WPA consist of members organizations from all over the world, check http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=member

I know that the system is not working properly in USA, but in for example Europe it works like this.

I am a member of Kvitsoy Biljardklubb. This is a small poolclub, with only 20 members. Still, we have 1 vote at the yearly Genearl Meeting in the Norwegian Pool Federation. (Bigger clubs get more votes). Here we discuss things like new rules, tournaments, budget etc.

The Norwegian Pool Federation are responsible to make sure that there are tournaments all over the country, for juniors, women, men, in 8-ball, 9-ball, 10-ball and 14-1, and for all kind of levels. We have 7 yearly regional tournaments in Division 1 and Divison 2, and Division 3 tournaments each week. (5 regions)

Players in a lower division can play in tournaments in higher divisions. At the highest level we have 7 national tournaments, including the Norwegian Championships in 8-ball, 9-ball, 10-ball and 14-1. These tournaments are open to all Norwegians.

No tournaments are played with hcp, and there are little price money to get. We are playing for the ranking, and at the end of the year the top players at the National Ranking will get spots in the European Championships so they can represent Norway.

Players in lower divisions will move up a Division if their rankings are good.

The entryfees of each tournament, in all divisions, is split like this:
20 % Norwegian Pool Federation
20 % Pool Hall
20 % Club (local organizer, TD)
20 % Pricemoney
20 % Pricefund for the Norwegian Master, last tournament of the year.

A lot, if not all, European countries have a system like or similar to this.

Then we have the EPBF.

They have a European Tour, the Eurotour. Here players are fighting for points. This tour is open for all players, but many countries/federations choose to sponsor their best players, based on the national ranking, into these tournaments.

The ranking on the Eurotour + the European Championships determines who will go to World Pool Masters, Mosconi Cup, World 8-ball, World 14-1, World 9-ball, World Ten Ball, Qatar Open, China Open, Philippine Open and the rest of the new WPA Tour.

All members/countries of the EPBF have the right to compete at the European Championships, in 8-ball, 9-ball, 14-1 and Teams.



I believe that the WPA's goal is to build organisations like this all over the world, make sure that all tournaments are played with the same rules, same format, using proper dresscode etc.

Now we have tournaments in 6-ball, 7-ball, 8-ball, 9-ball, 1-pocket, banks, rotation, 14-1, 6-pocket, 10-ball, trickshots, carom, snooker, 6ball snooker etc.

WPA wants to limit the games to as few as possible, to make it easier for the public and players, and their "sanctioned" games as of now are only 8-ball, 9-ball, 10-ball and 14-1.

The WPA's job is to make sure that every country has a chance of playing in a World Championship. If a Norwegian wants to compete in the World Ten Ball Championship he will have to perform well at either the Eurotours or at the European Championships, or to win a qualifier.

Since the WPA is trying to make pool more like a sport, they need to have certain rules for how tournaments are held, and what can be approved as a WPA-sanctioned tournament. You have different kind of levels here, and I believe World Championships are the highest level.

At a World Championship you have to provide a certain amount of $$$, referees etc.

I believe Dragon failed on atleast those two criterias this time, unfortunately, and I think the decision of the WPA was good.


I have probably done some mistakes in this post, and hope other people can correct it if so. Anyway, I hope I have helped some of you to understand why we need a WPA, and why we all should support it.
 
Steve Lipsky said:
I'm trying to understand the WPA's role in both domestic pool and international pool. ...
Click to expand...
I think there is an org chart somewhere of the relationships. ... see http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=member

The WCBS is the world governing body of cue sports. The WCBS is recognized by the IOC as the international sports federation for cue sports.

The WPA is the pool member of the WCBS. It is the world governing body of pool. It has as its members the continental confederations.

The BCA is a member of the WPA as the North American confederation, and is also acting as the US federation for pool.

The other members of the WPA are the continental confederations for South America, Africa, Asia, Europe, and Oceania. I met representatives from each region at the conference that decided on the WPA World Standardized Rules revision of 2008.

The WPA has very limited resources. I think that the members pay something like $20,000 or less each per year (some pay less than others). The other source of funding is sanction fees from international tournaments.

This allows the WPA to have a somewhat limited role, but maybe it should be. It is up to each national federation -- see for example what Roy's federation does above -- to promote pool in its country.

Another example of how this organization works: Recently the WPA got a lot of flak for the situation in the Philippines over which pool organization to recognize. I think that criticism was unfair. The problem is first for the Filipinos to decide. Second in line is the Asian Pocket Billiard Union which has to decide whether the organization that claims to govern pool in the Philippines is actually working correctly and properly authorized. It is not good for the WPA to tell the Filipinos that they should do something different or even tell the APBU that they need to handle Asian affairs differently. No national federation (as such) is a direct member of the WPA.

In the US, things work far differently than in most of the world. This is for historical reasons. Look at the Roy's list of what the Norwegian National Pool Federation does. Would you like a US organization to do something similar? Do you think it would help to promote pool?

Another historical problem is that in the US, the approach to pool is more like "what are you going to spot me?" and "how much is that added money?" and "you forgot to put your coaster by the pocket for the eight ball."

In Spain, the National Federation runs billiard camps for kids. It organizes a fair number of World Tournaments. I think it sponsors its top players to go to tournaments. It also gets support from the government as a member of the Spanish Olympic Committee.

I have heard that the Dutch federation provides a monthly stipend of $2800 to each of the top four pool players as long as they maintain their ranking.

In the US, both the carom federation and the snooker federation have held National Championships and are supporting (at least partly) their top players to go to the World Championships, and that's done primarily from player membership fees.
 
Steve Lipsky said:
I'm trying to understand the WPA's role in both domestic pool and international pool. I want to make clear - I write this thread with absolutely no intent to either malign them or laud them. I simply have little idea what they do and would like to learn.

I went to their website and, unfortunately, it's not terribly helpful. I was able to find their constitution, which is a lot of fluff written in legalese (example: "To cultivate mutual friendships with all other types of international and national billiards organizations."). Their "aims" and "objectives" were in many cases not very specific.

I've tried looking through AZB for info but their search function won't recognize a 3-letter search term.

One thing the WPA can definitely improve upon, in my opinion, is marketing their idea and purpose a little better. I think the BCA is the US (North American?) "wing" of the WPA, but I really don't know if the BCA belongs to the WPA, or the WPA created the BCA as the American version of its brand. I'm guessing the former. I'm curious to know if the BCAPL needs WPA approval to hold their annual amateur tournaments in Vegas or their round-the-year leagues across the country? If they don't, what is the advantage to the BCA of being a WPA member? Is it just that we get to send certain players to international championships? What does the BCA pay to the WPA annually for this right?

I definitely think pool needs an international sanctioning body. So I'm very interested in hearing from some experts on this, to help us all (or at least me) learn where the WPA is succeeding and where it is lagging. Again, they need to expend some more effort on their US marketing; the general opinion of them among most of the players I know is either not even knowing who they are, or thinking they do very little for US pool.

Finally, if they're not doing as much for US pool as they could, is that our fault or theirs?

Thanks to all.

- Steve
Click to expand...

They are simply an entity (with associated sub-entities by region), in the ether, that one would go to in the business of competitive pool.

Their BIG value is, they are the entity recognized by the WCBS, who is in turn recognized by the IOC (the mothership), to represent pocket billiard games worldwide - 'cept Snookah - that's the IBSF/WPBSA!
 
Look at the WHOLE picture. From my perspective I see the following..........

The IOC the "BIG POOPAH" hasn't done shit for pool and billiards. Okay they let it be a demonstration sport once.

The WCBS is pretty much completely unknow to me and therefore I'd have to say they haven't done shit for pool and billiards.

The EPBF and the APBU both seem quite capable organizations, but I don't see what they really gain from WPA sanctioning.

The BCA needs some major work starting with setting some damn goals and achieving those goals. What they gain from the WPA escapes me.

The WPBA is a very capable organization. They do their own thing and do it successfully. They will work with other organizations but not as subservients (sp?). This has served them well. They should expand and become the international leader of womens pool and billiards. IMO

I guess my point is why should anyone care a damn about the WPA if they don't do anything substantial except set standards and if their "superiors" the WCBS and the IOC don't do jack shit?:sorry:


Terry< maybe I'm just dense but if so it seems to be going around. :grin-square:
 
Roy Steffensen said:
The entryfees of each tournament, in all divisions, is split like this:
20 % Norwegian Pool Federation
20 % Pool Hall
20 % Club (local organizer, TD)
20 % Pricemoney
20 % Pricefund for the Norwegian Master, last tournament of the year.
Click to expand...

Roy,

If you had this type of payout here in the States, you'd be laughed out the door! It may work in Europe. Greed here would never allow it to happen. Can not see myself travelling five hours by car to play in an event where only 20% of the players entry fee went to the prize fund. Having some of the money go to a year end event is commonplace. Normally tours take $5 per player per event for this fund.

Sending 20% of the entry fee to a National Federation and a local club would never fly. Most events that are part of a "Tour" do have a fee to play. Usually $10 - $15 per event or one flat fee for the year. Most events I play in take a flat fee for table time. Usually ten dollars per player for "greens fees". Giving 20% to the host pool room would cause a riot!

Must be the difference in cultures!

roy steffensen said:
I believe Dragon failed on atleast those two criterias this time, unfortunately, and I think the decision of the WPA was good.
Click to expand...

This appears again to be a cultural thing. I'm not a big fan of Dragon Promotions. They are however one of the few sanctioning bodies doing something to promote 14.1 here in the States. I'm happy for that!

This weekend, I'm travelling two hours from my home to play in the Joss 9 Ball Tour event at the Turning Stone Casino. The entry fee is $150 for members of the tour and $200 for non-members. No hold backs for anyone. All the money from the entry fees is returned in payouts. Some of the $25,000 added money helps offset the cost of transporting and setting up the sixteen Diamond Smart Tables used. The rest is added to the prize fund. Entries are limited to the first 128 paid players.

Finally, the thought of a World governing body telling American players where and when they can play will have a serious problem catching on. We tend to be extremely independent. If the WPA doesn't like someone using the term "World Champion", oh well!

Lyn
 
I know there are a more than US players on AZ, but the US needs a National Org. badly. It's the only way pool here will ever take off. Johnnyt
 
Bob Jewett said:
No, they're not. They may call events they promote "World Championships" but it has nothing to do with sanctioning -- it's self-promotion and marketing.
Click to expand...

cardiac kid said:
...I'm not a big fan of Dragon Promotions. They are however one of the few sanctioning bodies doing something to promote 14.1 here in the States...
Click to expand...


Bob, I didn't think so but when I read the above, I had to ask because as I said in my earlier post every time I read a thread about the politics of pool the relationships/responsibilities/powers between various promoters, tours, sanctioning bodies, national federations etc. I get more confused. :confused:

Hell, I'm just a player. ;)
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I pray to God... I wish I may... I wish I might.... win this nitty $250million Power Ball tonight because I'd take $20 million and own world wide pool.
Click to expand...

...and no doubt you'd plough it into pool.....you know of course what would inevitably happen....pool players will take-take-take and give nothing back.....there will still be no more than a half dozen people who want to watch any final live at a venue....and perhaps a few dozen willing to watch pay per view.....and your $20 million will be gone in 5 years tops.....you will be branded a hero by some, an idiot by others and a scheming cheat by some.....people will then revert to moaning that there's no money in pool and that sponsors have no interest and many will still ridiculously insist that it's a very difficult and skilful game to play and that they don't understand why it bores the general public shitlesss :(
 
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cardiac kid said:
Roy,

If you had this type of payout here in the States, you'd be laughed out the door! It may work in Europe. Greed here would never allow it to happen. Can not see myself travelling five hours by car to play in an event where only 20% of the players entry fee went to the prize fund. Having some of the money go to a year end event is commonplace. Normally tours take $5 per player per event for this fund.

Sending 20% of the entry fee to a National Federation and a local club would never fly. Most events that are part of a "Tour" do have a fee to play. Usually $10 - $15 per event or one flat fee for the year. Most events I play in take a flat fee for table time. Usually ten dollars per player for "greens fees". Giving 20% to the host pool room would cause a riot!

Must be the difference in cultures!



This appears again to be a cultural thing. I'm not a big fan of Dragon Promotions. They are however one of the few sanctioning bodies doing something to promote 14.1 here in the States. I'm happy for that!

This weekend, I'm travelling two hours from my home to play in the Joss 9 Ball Tour event at the Turning Stone Casino. The entry fee is $150 for members of the tour and $200 for non-members. No hold backs for anyone. All the money from the entry fees is returned in payouts. Some of the $25,000 added money helps offset the cost of transporting and setting up the sixteen Diamond Smart Tables used. The rest is added to the prize fund. Entries are limited to the first 128 paid players.

Finally, the thought of a World governing body telling American players where and when they can play will have a serious problem catching on. We tend to be extremely independent. If the WPA doesn't like someone using the term "World Champion", oh well!

Lyn
Click to expand...

I'm sure you're right....and therein lies the esential difference between the pool playing community and some other sports which we all like to whine don't deserve to be so far ahead of pool.

Golf amateurs for example will travel hundreds, sometimes thousands, of miles incurring hundreds of dollars expenditure and entry fees for the chance to win a cheap trophy and zero cash. Pool players in general won't get off their a$$e$ to play a tourney at their local pool hall if it doesn't involve the possibility of cash.
 
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There are two attitudes....

What's in it for me

and

What's in it for us...

Guess which one works...

Roy, it works in Europe because Europe has always had dedicated and effective leadership. The players, clubs, and sponsors support the leadership and vice versa. They get it.

Here in North America all we have is a bunch of regional tours, individually sponsored, not many (if any) have any ties to the BCA never mind the WPA - which is the organization that represents North America in the WPA organization. Autonomy is not working for us.

Knock DP and the UPA all you want, but both organizations have worked very hard to establish a working relationship with both the BCA and the WPA. That is what is needed to get moving in the right direction. All they get is a lot of shitt tossed at them for a variety of reasons. I know from personal experience that if you try to lend a helping hand to work with or assist either DP, Charlie, or the UPA, you're treated as if you are a sympathizer to the Nazi Regime.

All everybody wants to do is move pool in the right direction. That is extremely difficult to do with the individualistic mentality that exists in the U.S. pool scene.

The bottom line is that we need an organization that is willing to lead the game, not the business industry. The BCA is merely a trade organization, and not equipped to effectively lead the game for the entire continent of North America. They simply do not have the resources or the financing - and that is a result of shooting ourselves in the ass for the past 30 years.

Am I surprised that sanctioning guidelines were not met this year? Not really. This is part of the gloom and doom I saw on the horizon in the wake of the IPT. Its been a few years since we have had a world 9 ball champion. I don't see much changing in the future.

The leadership needed to turn things around exists right here in this forum. The BCA needs to assist in forming this leadership and the right people have to step up to the plate.
 
Blackjack said:
Knock DP and the UPA all you want, but both organizations have worked very hard to establish a working relationship with both the BCA and the WPA. That is what is needed to get moving in the right direction. All they get is a lot of shitt tossed at them for a variety of reasons. I know from personal experience that if you try to lend a helping hand to work with or assist either DP, Charlie, or the UPA, you're treated as if you are a sympathizer to the Nazi Regime.
Click to expand...
David, Charlie, as the former head of the UPA and currently DP, brings a lot of the shitt on himself through his business practices.
When he headed the UPA, he had a history of bullying promoters. There is a promoter in my area that gave up on promoting pool events because of CW.
In this current situation, DP insists on calling this tournament a "World Championship", when they know that they have not met the criteria for a true "World Championship".
If DP would get off of their high horse and stop trying to bill every event as a "World Championship" and work within the system, they would get a lot more cooperation and not as much shitt.
 
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