Worlds Greatest Player vs. the Peoples Champion

[JoeyA]

MUCHO PROPS go to the stalwarts of gambling, the Stake Horses

funny thing is if they all think like you say.
why dont they bet any of their own money when they play?
i dont mean players my speed cause we bet ours.

If someone stakes you:
You can never lose any money.
The worst that can happen is you lose the stake horse's dough.
You have ZERO risk.

If you win 50% of TEN, (SEPARATE) ten thousand dollar matches you break out EVEN.

At a typical 40% for player and 60% for stakehorse split, if the player wins 50% of TEN, (SEPARATE) ten thousand dollar matches, the staked player still nets TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS. (Each side putting up $5,000for each OF ten different matches).

All that being said, it's still debatable whether utilizing a stakehorse is in a player's best interest, props ALWAYS goes to the guy who puts up his own dough.

You have to admire and respect the stakehorses. How many matches would you have if your opponents only bet their own dough?

But you know all that and more.

 

[schon267]

this post kinda proves what cleary said earlier, the tables are this the tables bank that, but in the end its still the same 5-10 players winning all the tournaments! no matter what table no matter what the dates, no matter what the bet, lets hope it comes together and we get to see earl play comfortabley on his table with his rules! earl is a legend and the greatest 9 ball player to live "imo" and he is one of svbs idols and busty is the other 1. but i for one wanna see some racks run on a 10 foot table. this should be fun!:grin:

BIGNASTY, AGREE WITH U MOSTLY, BUT REALLY ALL THESE PLAYERS PLAY OUTSTANDING, IT JUST DEPENDS ON WHO IS CLICKING AT ONE POINT IN TIME OR ANOTHER. THEY ALL GO THROUGH SPELLS OF SEEMINGLY UNBEATABLE PLAY, I LIKE WATCHING EARL ALOT! GREAT POOL, GREAT BREAK, AND GREAT ENTERTAINMENT! I REMEMBER WHEN SHANE WAS UNDER RADAR PLAYING FINALS OF VALLEY NATIONAL MASTERS DIV. FINALS, CUZ I WAS 2 TABLES AWAY PLAYING FINALS OF REG. DIV. HE IS AN AWSOME TALENT AND PERSON.
MY POINT WAS JUST THE WAY DIAMONDS PLAY, VS BRUNSWICKS. I WISH DIAMOND COULD FIX THE FEW THOSE FEW FLAWS I ALLUDED TOO. WHATEVER HAPPENS I WILL TUNE INTO THIS MATCH! IT WILL BE A GREAT MATCH NO MATTER WHO WINS. HAVE A GOOD NEW YEAR DUDE

BTW, THANKS FOR WHAT YOU DO FOR THIS GREAT GAME!:smile:

 

[Williebetmore]

If Earl has played on a 10' table before and Shane hasn't, then that would give Earl a significant advantage. .

PSA,
I'm not sure your conclusion is true (may or may not); but let me tell you a cool story that says something about this issue.

Mark Wilson (just after he stopped playing on the pro pool tour - back when there WAS a tour) had a pool hall with a 10 footer. Mark had played regularly on this table for years - and was a mid-level pro (good enough to play on the first 2 Mosconi Cup teams, pocketing the winning 9-ball in the first Cup).

Mark's good friend Efren Reyes came to visit Mark's pool hall, and had never played on a 10 footer before. Mark reports with no shame that WITHIN 5 MINUTES Efren's speed control and knowledge of the angles was better than Mark's even though Mark was VERY familiar with the table.

I think the pros have such a precise skill set that the table size will require very minimal adjustment - ESPECIALLY for those pros who have spent time on the road, where quick adjustment to differing equipment is sometimes the difference between winning and losing.

 

[realkingcobra]

Why does it have to be a diamond table? there are many 5x10 gold crowns around the country that could be brought in to contest this match. shim the pockets to players likings and have at it! Gold Crowns are better tables anyway in my opinion.
The bad thing about diamonds is that they bank short, the pockets are gaffe, and it's a guessing game to get speed down, reason being is that rails are so lively! the bed cloth speed is predictable, but the rail speed is not, it's a guessing game as to have far the balls will roll off the rails at a med speed or higher. certain shots are just not available trying to play position, so then you have to go the extra rail or 2, now you have no idea how to predict rail speed! god forbid if it's humid at all!

You never have this 2 speed combination problem with gold crowns. just my opinion, you diamond supporters don't flame me! lol

Let me tell you something about players like you...and most of the players out here today. Y'all are spoiled to death playing on todays tables If I could time-warp you all back to the 60's,70's and 80's and see how you like the pool tables and the conditions you had to play on back then...you'd NEVER complain about todays pool tables...or cloth. We didn't have any Simonis cloth, Artemis cushions, Super Aramith Pro balls...hell, even the tips on our cues were either Elk Masters or LePro's. Bar tables didn't have red circle cue balls...they had huge over sized cue balls...or were the Valley magnetic never roll straight cue balls. Most of the cloth was Mali...rubber backed....you'd be LUCKY if you could get the cue ball 4 rails around the table with a break stroke....provided you could keep the cue ball on the table.

How about playing on a 5x10 with Mali thick nap cloth...with rubber backing...and dead cushions. Players back in my time had to REALLY adapt to the equipment if you wanted to match up with someone to make some money....unlike today. We didn't even have much choice of cues either....unlike today where there's probably more cue makers out here today than there is "Pro" in this game. I'd love to see any of the cry babies today have to go down to and end rail and pick up the cushion and put it back in place so they could do a long rail bank...LMAO...or play some 9 ball on a bar box that has a corner pocket liner missing...and the metal corner casting has taken chunks out of the balls....but, they're still the ones on the table you have to play with...if you want the cash.

Glen

 

[realkingcobra]

MY POINT WAS JUST THE WAY DIAMONDS PLAY, VS BRUNSWICKS. I WISH DIAMOND COULD FIX THE FEW THOSE FEW FLAWS I ALLUDED TOO.

Diamond has already changed the play of their rails, even before the last US Open....where have you been? Earl won on the new playing Diamond's in Florida, they were used in the Turning Stone...it's been talked about here on AZ...do you read as well as you type in cap letters?:grin:

 

[Ken_4fun]

On the other hand, if either man really wanted to know who the "best" was, they would NOT be playing 10 ball; they would be playing straight pool. JMO.

That might be true about 50 years ago. NOBODY REALLY plays straight pool anymore. I know its a great game, but if it isnt played EVERYWHERE you would probably have a game that a handful of people play.

Buddy Hall and the guys in my pool hall all think Texas Express 9 ball is terrible and the best game is pushout 9 ball. It may be, but when the hell have you seen anyone play it?

I have no issue with 10 ball, or 9 ball. But as we saw with Donnie Mills, the rack and break can be made so a ball is made almost every break. Im no big fan of Earls, but he does have a point that game should be about playing the game and not decided on the break entirely.

Ken

 

[obsespool]

I just think it will be great fun to watch and own! Sign me up for the dvd's. This will be the quadruple nuts!!!
Thanks to whoever got this one going!

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

PSA,
I'm not sure your conclusion is true (may or may not); but let me tell you a cool story that says something about this issue.

Mark Wilson (just after he stopped playing on the pro pool tour - back when there WAS a tour) had a pool hall with a 10 footer. Mark had played regularly on this table for years - and was a mid-level pro (good enough to play on the first 2 Mosconi Cup teams, pocketing the winning 9-ball in the first Cup).

Mark's good friend Efren Reyes came to visit Mark's pool hall, and had never played on a 10 footer before. Mark reports with no shame that WITHIN 5 MINUTES Efren's speed control and knowledge of the angles was better than Mark's even though Mark was VERY familiar with the table.

I think the pros have such a precise skill set that the table size will require very minimal adjustment - ESPECIALLY for those pros who have spent time on the road, where quick adjustment to differing equipment is sometimes the difference between winning and losing.

WBM,
I'm in agreement with you. Earl may have a perceived "home field advantage" in having played on 10' tables before. However, I expect that SVB will be able to adapt fairly quickly to the 10' table. If SVB has the opportunity to practice in advance on the Diamond 10' table, as I'm sure he will, then Earl's advantage will be minimal at best.

 

[Poolhalljunkie]

never mind.......

 

[peteypooldude]

And you're right. And they're right. They all can play "perfectly" for somewhat extended periods. Matches these days are won by the guy who ends up playing "perfectly" at the right time, or playing "perfectly" for longer than another guy, or getting a couple of good rolls when they could have just as easily gotten a couple of bad rolls.

Anybody who KNOWS they have 99% odds to make all reasonable shots and get "perfect" position would naturally think of himself as "the best." (and nobody has 100% odds on those things)

So from that perspective, Earl's match idea is kinda cool: Let's push the boundaries and see who's the best THEN.

In some ways it's similar to the situation in snooker: thirty years ago, players simply did not take long shots, and instead always played them safe. The newer crop of players has worked out to the point where they now have decent odds to MAKE long shots, and they take them and win. By doing so they have set a new standard, in which someone who never played long shots could no longer consider himself "the best."


....and this is all another reason why it would be nice to see pool go back toward an emphasis on 14.1 rather than luck-ball (er, I mean 9-ball).

Other than the last sentence I completely agree with this analogy

 

[Nick B]

Young eyes typically have more accuracy and thus I don't think 10' will help Earl but man I want to see this.

Nick

WBM,
I'm in agreement with you. Earl may have a perceived "home field advantage" in having played on 10' tables before. However, I expect that SVB will be able to adapt fairly quickly to the 10' table. If SVB has the opportunity to practice in advance on the Diamond 10' table, as I'm sure he will, then Earl's advantage will be minimal at best.

 

[peteypooldude]

What money? We "are" talking about professional pool players right? I am sure they would be betting their own coin if they actually had some to lose.

Most people at your level are getting their money they bet from other places Chris. Pro pool players who do nothing but play pool for a living are not making much past their mortgage/rent, food, and a car payment. And I am talking top 10 players. God forbid they have a family and a kid they want to send to university.

Helluva point celtic

 

[Hungarian]

If someone stakes you:
You can never lose any money.
The worst that can happen is you lose the stake horse's dough.
You have ZERO risk.

If you win 50% of TEN, (SEPARATE) ten thousand dollar matches you break out EVEN.

At a typical 40% for player and 60% for stakehorse split, if the player wins 50% of TEN, (SEPARATE) ten thousand dollar matches, the staked player still nets TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS. (Each side putting up $5,000for each OF ten different matches).

All that being said, it's still debatable whether utilizing a stakehorse is in a player's best interest, props ALWAYS goes to the guy who puts up his own dough.

You have to admire and respect the stakehorses. How many matches would you have if your opponents only bet their own dough?

But you know all that and more.

Joey,

I agree that, in general, staking pool players under the standard business model is a horrible investment for the stakehorse.

 

[Luxury]

This could be the match of 2011. I will definitely buy this stream and call in sick.

 

[jay helfert]

Why does it have to be a diamond table? there are many 5x10 gold crowns around the country that could be brought in to contest this match. shim the pockets to players likings and have at it! Gold Crowns are better tables anyway in my opinion.
The bad thing about diamonds is that they bank short, the pockets are gaffe, and it's a guessing game to get speed down, reason being is that rails are so lively! the bed cloth speed is predictable, but the rail speed is not, it's a guessing game as to have far the balls will roll off the rails at a med speed or higher. certain shots are just not available trying to play position, so then you have to go the extra rail or 2, now you have no idea how to predict rail speed! god forbid if it's humid at all!

You never have this 2 speed combination problem with gold crowns. just my opinion, you diamond supporters don't flame me! lol

It's all a matter of perspective. All the things you say are bad about a Diamond, happen to be reasons why I like it. I don't think it's so bad to have to adjust your game to a different table. To me that is part of being a pool player, that all equipment does not play alike, and part of the test is who can adjust the best.

It's true that Gold Crowns and Diamonds do play different, and I happen to like both tables. I have spent many more hours playing on Gold Crowns and when I first got on a Diamond I didn't like it either. But I learned to adjust to the differences, and now I'm comfortable on either table. Unlike you maybe, I've played on some really bad boxes in my life (even recently in the Philippines) and to me, that's all part of the game. I like the challenge of figuring out how a table plays.

When I can beat some shortstop on some gaffed up table that he plays on every day, that is an accomplishment. On my last trip to the PI, I played a whole slew of guys in one "outdoor" pool room, where Andam is the local pro. At first I had no chance, but by the end of the day I was beating them all playing Rotation. No money involved, other than who pays the time, but still satisfying anyway. :wink:

 

[JAM]

...Buddy Hall and the guys in my pool hall all think Texas Express 9 ball is terrible and the best game is pushout 9 ball. It may be, but when the hell have you seen anyone play it?...

My partner is in agreement with Buddy Hall.

He said the East Coast players couldn't beat the West Coast players in pushout 9-ball, and so they decided to change the rules. In fact, he said the rules were changed by the recent inducted BCA Hall of Famers, Terry Bell and Larry Hubbart.

In his opinion, it turned 9-ball into a game of luck, and it took all the skill out of competition. 9-ball wasn't so much straight shooting anymore after the rule change. He thinks it's a shame that when a guy misses a ball straight in the hole, he thereafter gets rewarded for it. And it will cost you four or five games because of his mistake.

The times where you get rewarded playing two-shot/roll-out is that you can wear your opponent down with all the maneuvers in your arsenal of shots. With one-foul/ball-in-hand format, it is a whole different game. There's so many maneuvers with the push-outs to out-smart a guy and beat the guy with a shot.

He said that with the rule change, it ripped his guts out to where he didn't even want to play anymore. In the words of Queen Jean Balukas, "Win with skill, not with luck." :smile:

 

[billychips]

This is free money

If anyone really thinks that Earl has a chance at this game, please rob me. I will give up 3-1 on the money and take Shane. If Shane loses, I pay off and if Shane plays the second set on the nine footer, I get to bet the same amount and the second time I will lay 6-1. So, if you really think Earl can win, and he cant, bet at least 100 to win 300. The window will not close for a while so go rob some 7-11's or collect from your bookie. All money (including mine) must be posted with someone reputable. Nobody barred as long as you post, even Nasty. Wow if anyone bets I feel like it is a late Christmas present. Oh, and by the way, 15 years ago Shane would still hijack Earl.

 

[derekdisco]

If anyone really thinks that Earl has a chance at this game, please rob me. I will give up 3-1 on the money and take Shane. If Shane loses, I pay off and if Shane plays the second set on the nine footer, I get to bet the same amount and the second time I will lay 6-1. So, if you really think Earl can win, and he cant, bet at least 100 to win 300. The window will not close for a while so go rob some 7-11's or collect from your bookie. All money (including mine) must be posted with someone reputable. Nobody barred as long as you post, even Nasty. Wow if anyone bets I feel like it is a late Christmas present. Oh, and by the way, 15 years ago Shane would still hijack Earl.

Damn, right when I was about to offer 10 games on the wire, you come with this!

 

[billychips]

Damn, right when I was about to offer 10 games on the wire, you come with this!

Sorry bro couldnt help myself. I dont think any of these Earl fans will actually bet. Most of them just yap about 1985 but if they want to bet I wanna give them a chance to win something.

 

[Williebetmore]

If anyone really thinks that Earl has a chance at this game, please rob me. I will give up 3-1 on the money and take Shane. If Shane loses, I pay off and if Shane plays the second set on the nine footer, I get to bet the same amount and the second time I will lay 6-1. So, if you really think Earl can win, and he cant, bet at least 100 to win 300. The window will not close for a while so go rob some 7-11's or collect from your bookie. All money (including mine) must be posted with someone reputable. Nobody barred as long as you post, even Nasty. Wow if anyone bets I feel like it is a late Christmas present. Oh, and by the way, 15 years ago Shane would still hijack Earl.

BC,
I will put $100 on Earl. I don't know if you will be at Derby City, I can post there if you'd like. The local pros know you, I'm not worried about you posting. I've always enjoyed your participation here.

I hope the match comes off, and I hope its streamed. Should be a great match no matter the outcome, perhaps Earl can tap into 1985 (25 years ago) and actually win a game or two.

P.S. - I'm still casing the local 7-11, I will contact you if the heist is successful....