WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

[CJ Wiley]

pros shoot with fluid wrist movement, that's the power catalyst

Yeah...and I'm Elvis. You only come out and say, "this is just one way to do it" after several of us, who know better, call you out for making BS comments...like no pro players shoot with a fluid wrist movement. Lots of them do...lots of great amateurs too.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Now you're sounding silly. All pros shoot with fluid wrist movement. I'm talking about pre setting the wrist. That means I'm doing it BEFORE I get down on the ball.

My wrist movement is fluid too, I'm just telling players the "inside" of how I get the extra power. I"m answering other people's questions, not making statements. I talk to hundreds of people a week on Face Book, I'm just doing this for fun. You are a very stange, insecure old man.

You're not "calling me out" you're making yourself look like an shortscott, I mean shortstop. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Mikjary]

When you cock your wrist, it looks like it's cocked forward. I also find too many practice strokes kinda unlocks it. I think it's best when you get down on the shot and you are already lined up. No adjustments necessary. Just fire!

I'm still trying to get the feeling of the downward stroke. Do you feel like your wrist releases or stays locked as you hit the cue ball? I understand your wrist has changed position, but do you feel as if it's still locked?

Best,
Mike

 

[Rickw]

There appear to be three different techniques for the wrist to assist the pocket billiards stroke. The first one is the wrists don't do much at all, the second is they cock up as you hit the cue ball and finish the stroke and the other is the wrists uncock down as the cue ball is struck and the follow through is completed.

The way I play is definitely with the wrists cocking down as I contact the cue ball. I have been committed to this technique the last couple of days and it's amazing the results. The thing about my technique is I can pre cock my wrists very precisely and that was how I consistently produce powerful stoke shots with such accuracy. This, ironically is what I've been struggling with the most. I seemed to have lost my "power source" that effortlessly produced pin point accuracy when striking the cue ball.

Many of you will not benefit from this information (because the way you use your wrists work fine for you), and others will benefit immensely when you're still searching to improve your stroke and accuracy.

I personally found a missing part to my "personal puzzle" and I'm surprised I didn't "real eyes" how important this technique was for me. Sometimes the simplest answers complete the most complex problems {for myself}.

For some reason my "reasonable" mind says "use outside english", however a "Touch of Inside" produces best results, and my mind says "don't use the wrists", however uncocking my wrists like I'm using a hammer is most effective, and my mind says "root against my opponent" when pulling for my opponent works best. The key to life seems to be making myself do {at times} what I least "naturally" want to do. As I get "more experienced" I see that unfolding in many areas.

The Moral of the story? "Reasonable" thoughts and techniques can often be the wrong thoughts and techniques to reach the highest levels. To separate yourself you must be "Unreasonable" at times. 'The Game is the Teacher'

I don't understand all the negative posts regarding your willingness to share with us how you stroke the cue! You have said over and over that no one has to accept your style of stroke and that you're just sharing how you do it. Thank you for sharing!!

I would love to find out more about it such as "cocking", I'm not sure what you mean by that. You said you lock your wrist going down and forward and I'm not real sure what you mean by that either.

I have tried just about every stroke that I have been able to replicate such as a slip, a short stroke like Hopkins, a hesitated back stroke like Hall, a long bridge like Efren and some of the other Pinoys, etc, etc, etc. I've used my wrist, my elbow only and stroked up at the end of my stroke (I have noticed a greater amount of stroke this way but accuracy has been an issue).

I like laying the cue in my hand like it's in a track and stroking with my wrist because I do seem to enhance my accuracy this way. Finishing the stroke is the big problem for me, especially when maximum stroke is essential. I tend to twist my wrist when I need to crank on it. The slip stroke is good for accuracy but control is a big problem.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, please, please, please share more, if not on this forum, inbox me!!

Thanks again!!!

 

[ENGLISH!]

[/QUOTE] Call me a "mindless sycophant" or a "macadamia clasper", I think I just prefer not to toss the baby out with the bathwater.[/QUOTE]

Mr. Sloppy,

Be careful. With words like that, you might be accused of trying to cause dissention.:wink:

Best Regards,

 

[mantis99]

This is where I use a hammer if I"m having trouble with timing. I actually hammer nails, then play pool, then just try to feel the weight of the hammer and how it transfers energy to it's tip. I also use EXACTLY the same grip for a pool cue as I do a hammer, and everyone that I have used this with does the same. We all hold it differently, but all hold it the same with the hammer and pool cue.

For me and several others this is something that works very well. For the "experts" it doesn't work at all. Try it for yourself and you can be your own "judge". 'The Game is the Teacher'

That's an interesting thought. I will have to try that. Sometimes my attempt to forcible uncock the wrist results in a stronger grip from my last few fingers also creating a downward tip movement. I will try the hammer idea though.

 

[CJ Wiley]

the Kali attack will crush the bone, not just break it with the force generated.

CJ, many moons ago I studied Kali with a guy who learned from Leo Gaje in the Phillipines. Very serious stuff. The way I was taught to deliver a straight stick thrust to the body used an almost identical wrist action as the one you are describing. The movement downward is what I would call an "internal" movement. Very subtle as you say, and would not easily be detected on video. It is felt more than anything, and delivers much better penetration into the target.

Never thought of using it in a pool stroke, but I already know the motion so I might as well give it a go. I'm very open minded and willing to try anything to see what it's about. I've already been playing with a few of your other concepts and they seem to be helping me. If someone think that means I have my head where the sun don't shine on you, I really don't think that person has much to offer me.

Call me a "mindless sycophant" or a "macadamia clasper", I think I just prefer not to toss the baby out with the bathwater.

Yes, Sir, I'm familiar with the "Internal Arts". (Bagaua and the Filipino Fighting Sticks)...and this is where the root of my weapons training comes from. I've said on here that I look at the pool stroke as a martial arts form and yes, my ideas do not conform to traditional teaching (obvously from the reaction of these "instructors").

You are correct, the Kali attack will crush the bone, not just break it with the force generated. This is the motion I'm referring to, but unfortunately the hammer is the only thing familiar enough to compare it to. You will enjoy the game much more if you understand the Kali Movement. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[mantis99]

mantis99...You already have the answer (see bolded below). Now, concentrate of keeping your grip loose all the way through, backwards and forwards (regardless of the speed of the forward stroke), and you'll have it! Remember, the idea of the 'stroke-slip' (letting the cue slide forward through your hand) is the perfect definition of the desired outcome. We just don't have to actually let it slide...just hold it loosely.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Thanks scott. I've been trying to do that, but just seem to over grip more than not. It seems the initiation of the stroke going forward is something I really have to concentrate on as it stops the over gripping if done smoothly. The trouble comes when attempting longer shots that require more power and a more aggressive stroke. Hopefully I'll get it one of these days. It has been quite frustrating.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Personally, I think your and Thaiger's posts are some of the most entertaining that I've seen in recent times.

Glad we can keep you entertained while you're eating your popcorn...
at our expense.

You do know that I'm not from England. I just use english on almost every shot. I'm not fearful of 'non-simple' techniques.

 

[Slasher]

Its time for some comic relief

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YSPaLiTBL3E

 

[mantis99]

Scott, I have seen your loose grip in a short video clip with Randy G. Very smooth and fluid looking, almost like a glider on a child's swing set.

Now, I don't want to sound critical, but as smooth as it looks, I personally have not seen any upper tier players using that motion during delivery. The pinoys all seem to have that loose grip during warmup strokes, but they appear to me to firm up during the final delivery. Am I missing something, or seeing something that's not there?

Numerous examples exist of people using a very loose grip with the fingers only cradleing the cue and acting more as a pivot point for the cue than a grip. Allison Fisher is an excellent example of this and a number of other pros use a similar technique. Watch Allison stroking and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Neil]

Thanks scott. I've been trying to do that, but just seem to over grip more than not. It seems the initiation of the stroke going forward is something I really have to concentrate on as it stops the over gripping if done smoothly. The trouble comes when attempting longer shots that require more power and a more aggressive stroke. Hopefully I'll get it one of these days. It has been quite frustrating.

Sounds like your problem is actually in your mind. Your subconscious is set that for more power you must grip tighter or clench the cue. You need to re-train your subconscious. The easiest way I know of to do that is just to hit some balls up table slowly with a very loose grip. Then gradually, start hitting them a little harder. All the time observing how the grip feels, and keeping it exactly the same. After a little while, you will see that you can hit quite hard (break speed) with a loose grip. Then, your subconscious will accept it and you will be able to use it.

 

[Scott Lee]

CJ...Here I would mostly agree with you. It is all about measuring up and taking one precise stroke. The way someone prepares for that "one precise stroke" is different for everyone. Yet everyone has their own PSR. The same is true for every basketball player, amateur or pro. Every one of them has a PSR for shooting a free throw, that was burned into their memories when they were children. Pro basketball players sure do take 'practice strokes'...it's called bouncing the ball, spinning the ball, placing their hands or feet...anything someone might do, as part of their routine...immediately prior to releasing the ball (or in pool, deliver the 'one precise stroke'). Poolplayers are the same, with the exception that not everyone has a PSR, or knows what their PSR really is. I use the analogy of the 'basketball free throw PSR' with absolutely every student, no matter what skill level, and it's something every one of them could readily relate to, with a powerful memory of the process itself, and ability to call it up on demand, under pressure, in one try...even if they hadn't actually done it in 20 years, or more! That's the desired end result of the stroke process...to be able to do it perfectly, without thinking about it...every time.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I think of it more like a pro basketball player shooting a free throw. You don't see them take "practice stokes", you just see them "measure up to the shot", feeling the ball and connecting the ball to the rim. This is the same idea with the pool shot, measure up and take one Precise stroke. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

Players with Real Eyes can Realize the Real Lies

I don't understand all the negative posts regarding your willingness to share with us how you stroke the cue! You have said over and over that no one has to accept your style of stroke and that you're just sharing how you do it. Thank you for sharing!!

I would love to find out more about it such as "cocking", I'm not sure what you mean by that. You said you lock your wrist going down and forward and I'm not real sure what you mean by that either.

I have tried just about every stroke that I have been able to replicate such as a slip, a short stroke like Hopkins, a hesitated back stroke like Hall, a long bridge like Efren and some of the other Pinoys, etc, etc, etc. I've used my wrist, my elbow only and stroked up at the end of my stroke (I have noticed a greater amount of stroke this way but accuracy has been an issue).

I like laying the cue in my hand like it's in a track and stroking with my wrist because I do seem to enhance my accuracy this way. Finishing the stroke is the big problem for me, especially when maximum stroke is essential. I tend to twist my wrist when I need to crank on it. The slip stroke is good for accuracy but control is a big problem.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, please, please, please share more, if not on this forum, inbox me!!

Thanks again!!!

I'm sure players with Real Eyes can Realize the Real Lies.

Ok, I'm going to give you something that will give you a good "feeling" for how this works in a pool stroke.

Take a hammer and cock it up parellel to the floor like you're shooting an object ball, with the "hammer tip" pointing down to the floor. Pretend it's a pool cue (Grip it like a pool cue) and go through the stroking area like your actually shooting a shot.

As you go through the shot push the hammer straight down toward the ground like 3-6 inches and feel what's happening in your wrist and fingers. Feel the hammer uncock and the power in your hand. The *kenetic energy* being released from the potential energy that was stored earlier.

Notice your grip on the hammer after you do this a few times and see if it's still the one you use for the pool stroke. Grab a pool cue and hold it exactly like you did the hammer and do the same thing, this time with a pool cue instead of a hammer.

Notice the feeling in your hand and fingers as you go through the imaginary cue ball with the feeling of your wrist/fingers going down like the hammer, but keeping the cue going straight (as usual) through the cue ball.

So the cue goes through the cue ball like you "were" doing it, but now your wrist in going down (slightly) and forward, instead of whatever you were doing before. Now incorporate that into your pool stroke with the cue angled down slightly towards the bottom of the cue ball. 'The Game is the Teacher'

*
*The kinetic energy of an object is the energy which it possesses due to its motion.[1] It is defined as the work needed to accelerate a body of a given mass from rest to its stated velocity. Having gained this energy during its acceleration, the body maintains this kinetic energy unless its speed changes. The same amount of work is done by the body in decelerating from its current speed to a state of rest.

 

[Straightpool_99]

First of all I would like to thank CJ for sharing his insight on the stroke with us. It's always great to hear a professionals view on something.

That being said, I could not for the life of me understand how to use his method of cocking the wrist forward. I am so used to the traditional cocking of the wrist backward before the stroke and then snapping it forward through the ball, that when I tried the reverse my arm would not go forward at all. After many attempts I was able to complete the stroke with the wrist moving backward, but only if i relaxed the hand before ball impact. This had the additional effect of dropping the elbow slightly. I could feel the cue going forward somewhat but could not achieve any noticable extra accelleration. I guess I'm too set in my ways to use this technique.

I believe there must be some additional thing going on which allows CJ to generate power this way, otherwise I must have completely misunderstood what CJ is talking about. Its especially strange that he can tighten his grip on impact while doing this. Can you help me out here CJ?

Also its strange to hear people advocating the dead wrist. I know for sure that I could not break hard without the wrist snapping through.

Sorry I was writing while CJ was replying to the previous poster. Its now clear to me what he means. Still can't do it effectively though.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I use a Consistent Grip Pressure and control the cue throughout the stroke

First of all I would like to thank CJ for sharing his insight on the stroke with us. It's always great to hear a professionals view on something.

That being said, I could not for the life of me understand how to use his method of cocking the wrist forward. I am so used to the traditional cocking of the wrist backward before the stroke and then snapping it forward through the ball, that when I tried the reverse my arm would not go forward at all. After many attempts I was able to complete the stroke with the wrist moving backward, but only if i relaxed the hand before ball impact. This had the additional effect of dropping the elbow slightly. I could feel the cue going forward somewhat but could not achieve any noticable extra accelleration. I guess I'm too set in my ways to use this technique.

I believe there must be some additional thing going on which allows CJ to generate power this way, otherwise I must have completely misunderstood what CJ is talking about. Its especially strange that he can tighten his grip on impact while doing this. Can you help me out here CJ?

Also its strange to hear people advocating the dead wrist. I know for sure that I could not break hard without the wrist snapping through.

I"m not "snapping down" if you notice on my last post I"m "PUSHING" down (with my fingers). It needs to be smooooooth, but yet still release the kenetic energy.

And when I do this movement (try the hammer drill in the above post) I don't tighen my grip on the hammer or pool cue. I use a Consistent Grip Pressure and control the cue throughout the stroke. I DO NOT recommend the loose grip though the ball, but again, "different strokes for different folks".

I will do the loose grip on finesse shots and really delicate shots, but not on full shots that require a "stroke". To transfer the most energy to a baseball or tennis raquet do you use a loose grip or a firm, controlling grip? Especially on a cold day. :wink:

Again for the anal "overseeers" I have, this IS NOT for everybody. My grip is the same as I use to brush my teeth, firm for control, yet not so tight that I can't feel my teeth (cue ball). 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Straightpool_99]

Thanks for the clarification(sp?) CJ! :smile: I will try it out.

 

[CJ Wiley]

practice stokes aren't a good idea imho

When you cock your wrist, it looks like it's cocked forward. I also find too many practice strokes kinda unlocks it. I think it's best when you get down on the shot and you are already lined up. No adjustments necessary. Just fire!

I'm still trying to get the feeling of the downward stroke. Do you feel like your wrist releases or stays locked as you hit the cue ball? I understand your wrist has changed position, but do you feel as if it's still locked?

Best,
Mike

My wrist releases slightly, but it's not something you could see. Like the "Touch" of Inside I use, I'm the only one in the room that knows I'm doing it. When I was gambling a lot I was always worried it would be detected, but that wasn't possible, it was such a stong advantage I sometimes felt like I was doing something against the rules.

And yes, practice stokes aren't a good idea. It's like the basketball players shooting free throws, they don't take practice strokes. Just line/measure up to the cue ball and take ONE stroke.

Practice for an hour or two and don't take ANY practice strokes. I've mentioned before how strong that practice drill is. I do it myself if I'm getting ready to play for a lot of money.

 

[mantis99]

Sounds like your problem is actually in your mind. Your subconscious is set that for more power you must grip tighter or clench the cue. You need to re-train your subconscious. The easiest way I know of to do that is just to hit some balls up table slowly with a very loose grip. Then gradually, start hitting them a little harder. All the time observing how the grip feels, and keeping it exactly the same. After a little while, you will see that you can hit quite hard (break speed) with a loose grip. Then, your subconscious will accept it and you will be able to use it.

That's probably very good advice Neil. I just need to go stroke a few thousand balls with that grip and over time get it back to 2nd nature.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

On the contrary, mine goes down (and forward) like I'm driving a nail with a hammer. Your's goes up (and forward) like your hitting yourself in the head with a hammer.

Actually, "my" motion isn't like hitting myself in the head - yours is like hitting yourself in the balls. See? "The Game" is teaching me already.

Anyway, unless you're speaking another language, your "down" motion and my "up" motion are in opposite directions - they can't both be "forward".

Maybe I missed the motivational poster that explains this.

pj
chgo

 

[dr9ball]

Glad we can keep you entertained while you're eating your popcorn...
at our expense.

You do know that I'm not from England. I just use english on almost every shot. I'm not fearful of 'non-simple' techniques.

I know Rick. But still you say what you've got to say with conviction. I can't fault that.