The funny part is, Allen Jr. is saying the same thing that I am saying.
Responce to Jerry Forsyth Article
- Thread starter DrMikeUSN
- Start date
The funny part is, Allen Jr. is saying the same thing that I am saying.
100% agree. In 1956 the world was very different than it is today. I believe that was the year Elivis shocked the world with his dance moves. Today, his moves would be laughed at and overlooked. The times, they are a changin'.
I think that gambling is used way too often as whats wrong with pool. Ever play in a football pool or such? Every thing that can be gambled on is.
People like golf, football, baseball and so on because they can go there in person and watch the sport. Try that with pool. Before there will be more pool on TV, there needs to be more people going in person.
Those same sports are played from a early age. There are sports programs, city,leagues, and schools, that promote those sports, pool does not.
The real skill needed to play pool is not known to most people. The real value the sport provides is not known.
There is no real pro standard in pool. Look at Stricklen. There is not a orgainzation that can fine him and such like in the other pro sports. You want pool to have a pro imagine, then is gonna take a set of standards to do that.
There needs to be more amatuer events. You think Tiger Woods just walked up and started playing at a pro level.
There needs to be one main organization that oversees pool and has a dircetion for pool, that all can get behind.
I watch some of the pool events and there need to be a dress code. You want high end sponsors, then you can't have players looking shabbly.
On and on......
People like golf, football, baseball and so on because they can go there in person and watch the sport. Try that with pool. Before there will be more pool on TV, there needs to be more people going in person.
Those same sports are played from a early age. There are sports programs, city,leagues, and schools, that promote those sports, pool does not.
The real skill needed to play pool is not known to most people. The real value the sport provides is not known.
There is no real pro standard in pool. Look at Stricklen. There is not a orgainzation that can fine him and such like in the other pro sports. You want pool to have a pro imagine, then is gonna take a set of standards to do that.
There needs to be more amatuer events. You think Tiger Woods just walked up and started playing at a pro level.
There needs to be one main organization that oversees pool and has a dircetion for pool, that all can get behind.
I watch some of the pool events and there need to be a dress code. You want high end sponsors, then you can't have players looking shabbly.
On and on......
In addition to that, there have been three decades of organized, nationally sponsored league play, that has brought hundreds of thousands of new players into the game, that in turn, will bring in hundreds of thousands more. Even so, all told, the organized leagues are but 10% of the total grassroots players out there (400K in APA, BCAPL, VNEA & TAP combined, versus 4,000,000 REGULAR players...defined as playing at least once a month). Find a way to reach them, and you will have the answer to pool's prayers. There's nothing wrong with gambling on pool (or anything else), until it becomes your only reason to play. At that point you've lost sight of what pool is really about.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Jerry, are you still reading? or does anyone out there have a link to the article this thread was started in reference to?
I have not seen the article, and none of my comments were directed towards it in any way. I was merely responding to what I saw in the threads...
Although it did not go off as planned, the Million Dollar 9-Ball event that me and my dad tried to do was an effort to capture attention. I believe that if we could get the payouts large enough, then attention will follow. So if that means that each player needs to pony up 5K so that 200 players can play for a 1 million dollar prize pool, so be it. the WSOP only has a huge prize pool because each players puts up 10K (plus juice for the house). Yes, the advent of the satellite events made it easier to get in, and then the internet came along and exploded the concept of the satellites - but the point is the same. There is no added money in poker, yet pro pool events all expect tons of added money. Well, where does that come from?
There are no promoters out there making enough to add that kind of money. None.
The money needs to come from within. If we start having tournaments with huge payouts, a la Trudeau, then the media will start to follow along. People want to see big money being won, not $15 or 25K. It's just not enough to get attention anymore. Same way Elvis' dance moves wouldn't get attention anymore in today's world.
So while I was bummed that our format didn't work out, I still believe it is the way to go. Where were all the pros that want to win $150K? Yes, a 5K entry fee is steep, but every top player knows a backer, or they could get a cash advance, or just borrow the damn money. When the big money comes up, you see who is or isn't afraid to play. We provided a model, and held an event, and it could have worked.. really, if we had even gotten 32 players, it could have been a great 32 man event with over 150K in prize money. There was one player on site who just looked around at the competition and decided not to play, even on his backers dime. 12 other players to beat, 60K in the prize pool (actually, 65K, because if he played, then my dad would have played - to keep the field an even number). Not very often do 12 players play for a piece of 60K. And if I remember correctly, we set it up so most of the players could at least break even.
Now keep in mind, you make entries higher, and only the real top players can afford to take a chance. And thus, by default, you narrow a championship professional event to those that deserve to be playing. I mean no offense to anyone at all, but a player should not have the chance to put up $200 and play alongside the Worlds Best Players in a short race in a major championship event. You can't just put up $200 and take a shot against Tiger in a tournament. You have to earn the right to be there. Pool is the only sport in which this happens.
So, in absence of a legitimate qualifying system, I believe raising the entry fees will have this same effect. Yes, some players who are skilled enough may miss out, but in the long run it will benefit the sport... I know there are 32-64 players out there who have the heart to play against absolutely anyone. Anyone can play against anyone for $200-$500, to some its just a lesson. Not a perfect idea yet, but on the right track... in my humble opinion of course.
Anyhow, our event didn't work as planned... but my point is that I believe this model is the way to go:
Bigger entry fees = bigger payouts
Bigger payouts = increased media interest
Increased media interest = eventual outside sponsorship
Outside sponsorship = more money for all players, and a viable future
Again, I got off course... sorry. I have a tendency to ramble...
I have not seen the article, and none of my comments were directed towards it in any way. I was merely responding to what I saw in the threads...
Although it did not go off as planned, the Million Dollar 9-Ball event that me and my dad tried to do was an effort to capture attention. I believe that if we could get the payouts large enough, then attention will follow. So if that means that each player needs to pony up 5K so that 200 players can play for a 1 million dollar prize pool, so be it. the WSOP only has a huge prize pool because each players puts up 10K (plus juice for the house). Yes, the advent of the satellite events made it easier to get in, and then the internet came along and exploded the concept of the satellites - but the point is the same. There is no added money in poker, yet pro pool events all expect tons of added money. Well, where does that come from?
There are no promoters out there making enough to add that kind of money. None.
The money needs to come from within. If we start having tournaments with huge payouts, a la Trudeau, then the media will start to follow along. People want to see big money being won, not $15 or 25K. It's just not enough to get attention anymore. Same way Elvis' dance moves wouldn't get attention anymore in today's world.
So while I was bummed that our format didn't work out, I still believe it is the way to go. Where were all the pros that want to win $150K? Yes, a 5K entry fee is steep, but every top player knows a backer, or they could get a cash advance, or just borrow the damn money. When the big money comes up, you see who is or isn't afraid to play. We provided a model, and held an event, and it could have worked.. really, if we had even gotten 32 players, it could have been a great 32 man event with over 150K in prize money. There was one player on site who just looked around at the competition and decided not to play, even on his backers dime. 12 other players to beat, 60K in the prize pool (actually, 65K, because if he played, then my dad would have played - to keep the field an even number). Not very often do 12 players play for a piece of 60K. And if I remember correctly, we set it up so most of the players could at least break even.
Now keep in mind, you make entries higher, and only the real top players can afford to take a chance. And thus, by default, you narrow a championship professional event to those that deserve to be playing. I mean no offense to anyone at all, but a player should not have the chance to put up $200 and play alongside the Worlds Best Players in a short race in a major championship event. You can't just put up $200 and take a shot against Tiger in a tournament. You have to earn the right to be there. Pool is the only sport in which this happens.
So, in absence of a legitimate qualifying system, I believe raising the entry fees will have this same effect. Yes, some players who are skilled enough may miss out, but in the long run it will benefit the sport... I know there are 32-64 players out there who have the heart to play against absolutely anyone. Anyone can play against anyone for $200-$500, to some its just a lesson. Not a perfect idea yet, but on the right track... in my humble opinion of course.
Anyhow, our event didn't work as planned... but my point is that I believe this model is the way to go:
Bigger entry fees = bigger payouts
Bigger payouts = increased media interest
Increased media interest = eventual outside sponsorship
Outside sponsorship = more money for all players, and a viable future
Again, I got off course... sorry. I have a tendency to ramble...
Jay's right on target here. The ratings are what the corporate sponsors are interested in, not a squeaky clean image! And as Jay mentioned, in Asia, cue sports are on TV almost 24/7 on one cable channel or another. I've been to the Philippines several times and have seen Coca Cola sponsoring pool shows on the Asian ESPN. I've seen 50 foot high billboards with Efren touting San Miguel Beer, among other things. I've been to tournaments in Manilla, where the tourny was in the Mezanine (sp?) of the Mega Mall, with 4 floors looking down upon the tournament tables. There would be thousands of Filipino fans hanging over the railings watching the event! I've heard that Efren has received more than one "ticker tape" style parade upon his return to the Philippines after representing his country abroad! The only sports figure in the Philippines with perhaps a bigger fan base than Efren Reyes would be Manny Pacquaio and before he made it big in boxing Efren was the king in the Philippines, much like Michael Jordan was in the US 15 years ago.
The problem is not the gambling or pools image, it's the fan base! People need to be educated about pool, not just the players, but the everyday soccer moms, young people, and businessmen. Accu-Stats does a lot to let people know about the difficulty and skills necessary to play top level pool. It's unfortunate that ESPN has never wised up and hired Accu-Stats to produce their pool broadcasts. I believe it would have an impact on the overall success of the sport. For the most part, pool has never had GOOD reporting or broadcasts to teach the laymen what good pool really is other than Accu-Stats, maybe TAR, and the pool Magazines and websites. They never reach the real public, just the inner circles.
just more hot air!
Sherm
Well, if Allen Hopkins Sr. gets involved in anything pool related by way of tour or governing body, I will be the first in line to provide support.
I trust Allen Hopkins Sr., 100 percent. He's a successful promoter, as well as the player himself. He knows and understands what needs to happen.
Most importantly, he ain't following some pied piper, kissing their rear end because they have deep pockets, and he doesn't have the ego problems that some do. In essence, he is the real deal.
Oh, one little Hopkins factoid, Allen Hopkins Sr. has never done a drug in his life. I don't know how he escaped the flaws of the Woodstock generation, but he did.
Whatever Allen Hopkins Sr. is involved in, if he ever decided to accept a mission to advance pool, it will be for the good of pool as a sport, not for his ego, not for his pockets, and not to step on the very players left in this racket. In case you haven't looked, the numbers are diminishing. Soon it won't matter anymore for professional pool.
I think you are 100% right with this.
I am getting back into the game after a long break, but I followed the rise of poker, having WSOP vids from before anyone had ever even thought of a hole cam. While the element of chance is largely reduced with pool compared to poker, the simple fact is they sold poker as a game of skill where over the long haul the best guy wins.
If the top prize of the WSOP was $40k, I don't think there is any way ESPN would have given it any attention. The reason it got attention was that someone was going to leave that tournament a millionaire. The poker boom did not occur from grassroots organizations or from poker leagues, it occurred (in my opinion) because of the television exposure which came because of huge payouts. Look at gameshows. Deal or no deal is the most rediculous of premises yet it was huge...why? Big payout possibilities. If top prize had been $40k, I don't think the show would have gotten any attention. Big money gets peoples attention.
That being said, when ESPN did give all that coverage to WSOP, you saw the rise of more mid/high level tournaments like the WPT. This additional exposure led to more people being interested in the game which led to a rise in mid level tournaments which led to the huge internet boom where people could cut their teeth on small stakes stuff to try to hone their skills to move up to the next level. Heck, local bars around here were holding tons of free poker nights. Play was horrible but you could win a small prize for winning the night and the bars made out on drinks and food.
I think if you had a million dollar top prize for a tournament you can get ESPN's (or some major networks) attention. You will also pull more players world wide. That is life-changing money for many people and I think more people will be willing to take a shot when the payout is that big. You get multi-day exposure like WSOP and you get new fans. With more fans you get more interest which gets you more mid level tournaments which gets even more fans who will fill local establishments wanting to play and hone their skills to take their shot. This will fuel small tournaments. A good movie wouldn't hurt either, which is more likely if there is more interest. I still cringe when I think of the kids with no game twirling their house cues around in a failed imitation of Tom Cruise from TCoM, but the simple fact is that movie made new fans.
My $0.02 on the subject.
I remember meeting Allen Hopkins, Sr about 25 years ago at the Sports Palace in New Orleans and remember him stating that he doesn't like to play more than a few hours because after a few hours he loses his edge. Got say that sounds like a player who doesn't use drugs to enhance his performance.
JoeyA
I think there are many people who try pool, and find it difficult to get very good at it. Then you have people like all of us on this board, who found it as a challenge and welcomed it, and realized that it is a sport that at any age you can greatly improve, but will never master. As far as comparing pool to poker, I promise you a player with lesser abilities in a Pro Poker Tournament would have a much better chance of winning than a player of lesser abilities in a Pro Pool Tournament. In pool there is no bluffing, its just shut up and play.
Off topic
This thread with its 150 or so resonses is off topic. The question is "Why does the pool comunity not acknowledge and patronize it's sponsors?" Can someone take a shot at this?
This thread with its 150 or so resonses is off topic. The question is "Why does the pool comunity not acknowledge and patronize it's sponsors?" Can someone take a shot at this?
master9baller
Banned
Bartram,
This Mike is a clown, don't let him tell you anything. He can't even put draw on the cueball. WTH does he know about anything to do with pool?
Who appointed him as pool's savior and why should he care?
When you actually have a game and aren't afraid to risk some cash to back it up, nothing is more exciting. Try playing $100 per game to get your blood pumping a little.
A guy will play race to 7 over 45 minutes for $20, winner paying time. The same guy will walk into a casino and bet the same $20 on a hand of blackjack that takes 30 seconds.
This Mike is a clown, don't let him tell you anything. He can't even put draw on the cueball. WTH does he know about anything to do with pool?
Who appointed him as pool's savior and why should he care?
When you actually have a game and aren't afraid to risk some cash to back it up, nothing is more exciting. Try playing $100 per game to get your blood pumping a little.
A guy will play race to 7 over 45 minutes for $20, winner paying time. The same guy will walk into a casino and bet the same $20 on a hand of blackjack that takes 30 seconds.
Real simple for me.....theres is not one thing I need from any of the sponsors of pool. I got my stick, I got my case, I got the three books I need and thats all I need.
Off base...
After many debates, and subjects, this will be my final post on this thread.
I started this and had a thought that came to mind when I read Jerry's article. So I put my opinions out there, and they are MY opinions, and yes some of you have made VERY valid points, but I continued to argue them. After taking all that in, and spending the last few hours thinking about it, there are some points where I was wrong.
However, I will stand up and say that if we show off our professionals in a positive way I think we could use them as the "poster children" for a mentor, or someone to look up to.
Someone made a post that we don't educate people on the sport, and some people are ignorant to the sport, and really don't know what it takes to understand the game and what it takes to play it at a high level. So with that said, who is going to educate them? Who are we in the industry going to use as "that" person to show positive light?
I argued some points to push it as far as I could and get as many people talking about the subject. I have had private messages and e-mails sent to me aside from this forum -- about this point. I just said I will keep arguing it to get more involved.
But Bartam, and the others I challenged are somewhat right, and I had some correct points as well... The fact that "has?" gambling hurt the sport I think in some fashion it has, but it is excepted, and gambling is a part of lots of other sports. However, my point wasn't just gambling it was everything else that surrounds gambling.
I so concede. But my initial thoughts with this were right to spark a conversation, and get people talking about WHAT it takes to get the sport back on track, AND to get people to think about giving back to the community, that is what it was all about.
My repsonce to Jerry's article wasn't ment to be a debate on players not supporting sponsors, I understand what his article was about, however, reading that, I had my thoughts that I wanted to get out there. Even if I was wrong... I wanted to start this conversation!!
Thanks everyone for putting up with this long thread~
After many debates, and subjects, this will be my final post on this thread.
I started this and had a thought that came to mind when I read Jerry's article. So I put my opinions out there, and they are MY opinions, and yes some of you have made VERY valid points, but I continued to argue them. After taking all that in, and spending the last few hours thinking about it, there are some points where I was wrong.
However, I will stand up and say that if we show off our professionals in a positive way I think we could use them as the "poster children" for a mentor, or someone to look up to.
Someone made a post that we don't educate people on the sport, and some people are ignorant to the sport, and really don't know what it takes to understand the game and what it takes to play it at a high level. So with that said, who is going to educate them? Who are we in the industry going to use as "that" person to show positive light?
I argued some points to push it as far as I could and get as many people talking about the subject. I have had private messages and e-mails sent to me aside from this forum -- about this point. I just said I will keep arguing it to get more involved.
But Bartam, and the others I challenged are somewhat right, and I had some correct points as well... The fact that "has?" gambling hurt the sport I think in some fashion it has, but it is excepted, and gambling is a part of lots of other sports. However, my point wasn't just gambling it was everything else that surrounds gambling.
I so concede. But my initial thoughts with this were right to spark a conversation, and get people talking about WHAT it takes to get the sport back on track, AND to get people to think about giving back to the community, that is what it was all about.
My repsonce to Jerry's article wasn't ment to be a debate on players not supporting sponsors, I understand what his article was about, however, reading that, I had my thoughts that I wanted to get out there. Even if I was wrong... I wanted to start this conversation!!
Thanks everyone for putting up with this long thread~
jdlough
Jim
EXCEPT that Va will allow separate smoking rooms. Thus, Q-Masters is now building their 'Smoking Room", and all the regular rooms we know will continue to be smoking rooms.
I just called Q-Masters to verify, and yep, I will continue to be able to smoke and shoot pool. Yep, Barry Behrman is is now the poster-guy for American Freedom.
To me, the definition of when your country sucks is when you can't smoke in a pool hall.
Served my country for 30+ years, so I'm not anti-American, but, yeah, it may be soon time for me to go. One of those Caribbean islands with smoking pool rooms, and internet.
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How's he gonna mess with a couple of grizzlys when he's a pooh bear? He's not the sharpest knife in the drawer is he?
They do-There are just not enough of them to make much difference. and believe me no one is going out and gettin Nextel to support Nascar. If they are Nascar fans, they are inundated with Nextel ads, imagery etc. That stuff eventually becomes part of your subconscious and when you go for a phone, it's Nextel. Advertising works.
Issuing a statement saying you will give a discount to pool players is a far cry from real advertising and a whole different type of "sponsorship".. In Fact i wouldnt call it sponsorship AT ALL. They are trying to drum up business in a tough economy. Unless there is more to it that i dont know, they are not investing a dime.
Im not saying dont use Red Roof-It's one of the better hotels in its class. The Coffee is GREAT but the cups are small. Bring your own 16 oz cup and hit the button twice.
One other point about RR-The WiFi is not free and it's T-Mobile. If you are staying 4-5 days sometime they have a weekly card for $15 or so. If the front desk has the cards even for a day, use them. iT's waaaaaaaaaay easier than the online process for buying access.
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Dam good point, matter of fact how much is it with the so called "discount" how much you want to bet that you can get just as good and probably an even nicer hotel for cheaper or the same price as the supposed discount using hotwire or priceline...I get rooms at the HILTON for $50 all day long, and its the truth as I LIVED there last year during my off weeks between hitches for about two months. So unless RRI is giving away those rooms for $30 to players then that aint no deal to us, just a marketing ploy to drum up business like you said.
Matter of fact I just checked it, and thats not a deal a room in tulsa was $60 bucks and minus 20% is 48$ same dam thing I pay for the HILTON, and you can probably get that class of hotel from hotwire/priceline for 25-35$ on the bid. They not helping no more than anyone else, just trying to make it look that way so they can nab our business.
ain't no fool,
Grey Ghost
