Wondering where the worst refs in the world are? May I present the BCA...

gromulan

gromulan

Reality police
Silver Member
God the officiating in the amateur event is HORRIBLE with a capital wow!

I happened to stop in to watch for a bit and caught one of the women's games. So clearly one of the girls (girl A) had ran stripes to the eight and missed it, so the other player (girl B) is slowly taking down the solids, but the table was a little messed up so she's been playing some safeties too. However girl A is actually doing a good job of preventing her from getting any easy run out chances from her safeties and is keeping the balls fairly tied up. So this goes on for a bit and finally girl A leaves girl B where she's in a bit of a predicament and it's going to be quite hard for her not to leave girl A some kind of a shot at the eight.

Annnnnd all of a sudden a ref appears out of nowhere like a ninja and declares the game a stalemate because neither player had been 'advancing their position' enough. I mean the poor girl almost vomited when he said it too. 5000 pool players in the room and the only person who could possibly see a stalemate in that situation is the guy who's reffing? How does that happen?


But then we have a men's match where dude A is playing a safety, but the cue ball's a little close to the object ball so dude B calls the ref. So dude A hits the ball well and just trickles up to the 4-ball. It hits a rail, no problem, so it's all good. "Foul", calls the ref.

"Foul? For what?" says dude A.
"You hit the 4-ball," says the ref.
"Yes, I'M SOLIDS!"
"Oh," says the ref. "Well I can't change my call now that I've made it. Sorry." Then he gives the dude B the cue ball and walks away!

That one actually resolved itself okay because dude B just put the cue ball back where it was and shot like the ref had never been there, which was pretty classy.



And then the kicker. So it's the 25th game deep in the team tournament, there is only the one table going and the two players are trading safeties. Surrounding them are all the empty tables and various spectators. So dude C hits a two-rail kick on a ball and, while he didn't execute it perfectly he did leave a shot where dude D can put him in a fair bit of trouble.

So dude C walks a couple of tables over to get out of dude D's way, and stands next to one of the empty tables. As he does, he casually taps the cue ball on the empty table one-handed with the tip of his cue and knocks it gently into the pocket. The ball travels maybe three inches.

So here comes ninja ref. "Foul! Ball in hand for dude D! You were practicing on an adjacent table during your game!"

Well so obviously pandemonium erupts, players are screaming for the head official, the place goes nuts. Finally the head ref comes over and actually reverses the original call! Most LOL of all was the reasoning. He said that what dude C did actually was a foul (can you believe that shit?), but that the ref should not have come over and called it as he did, as fouls can only be called by refs when one player or another has requested them to watch a shot.

Now bear in mind that I stopped in to watch maybe half a dozen games. I can only imagine what kind of stuff I didn't see. Wow.
 
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Foul? For what?" says dude A.
"You hit the 4-ball," says the ref.
"Yes, I'M SOLIDS!"
"Oh," says the ref. "Well I can't change my call now that I've made it. Sorry." Then he gives the dude B the cue ball and walks away!
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Thats funny, kinda. The first thing you do when called as a ref is ask the player thats shooting, "What ball are you shooting". Even if you were watching and know, it just creates problems like that when you assume.
 
I actually have a few Ref stories as well. I was playing in the scotch tournament and had put a guy within 1/4" from his object ball. I watched him looking at the shot and said I'd like to get a ref to look at it.

The guy lines up with a level cue and putting draw on the ball. He hits it with a medium stroke pushing right through the cueball. The cueball went forward 3-4 inches and hopped a little before drawing back 6 inches. The Ref announces "Good Hit". I flew out of my chair to contest.

I explained that it is virtually impossible to shoot a ball that close with a level cue ball without fouling. Especially with draw and hitting it with that speed. I asked to call over a head ref. He motioned to another ref who came over. I explained the shot and he said, "Well, I didn't see it so the other ref's judgement is what is being used." I then asked for a head ref and they said it would take too long and the match was running behind. (it was 1-1 and maybe 20 minutes into the match in the race to 4). Luckily my partner had a real easy safe, but I was just floored at how easy the call was and they made it incorrect.

2nd, I witnessed a friend shooting a BIH shot where he had to combo the 4 into the 13 ball and move it down table. The cueball was 2 inches off the rail and he informed the ref he was going to draw the cueball into the rail. He shoots the shot and the 13 goes straight down the table but doesn't hit a rail. The cueball drew back hit the rail and rolled up 4 inches and froze to the 4 ball. The Ref called foul and picked up the cueball. Everyone exclaimed that the cueball hit the rail but the ref said, "Sorry I didn't see that and the 13 did not hit a rail." and handed the cueball to his opponent. The opponent took ball in hand and ran out. Everyone was just sick about it!
 
I wish I could say that I was surprised, but I'm not. In the pool world, a really good referee is not so easy to find. Bottom line - it's not as easy as it looks to be a good referee. I've seen more refs dog it than players, including in major tourneys.

Nigel Rees and Michaela Tabb with Matchroom are excellent! So is Kenny Shuman, Bill Stock and John Leyman, who worked on the U.S. Open Ten Ball. Justin Acker is another good ref I've worked with. So is Mark Wilson. It's a short list.
 
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and the rest of the story is.........

Sorry but I think the BCA Referees overall do a great job.....SPF=randyg
 
Isn't it sad what we have all had to deal with. Seriously the one where the ref made the bad hit call, then said i made a mistake but now its too late...same thing happened to my wife.

I've seen all these at our state tournaments for the last 10 years. Alot of times people call refs hoping the ref will screw up and make a bad call in their favor. PATHETIC.
 
As someone who has reffed at the state and national tournament level, I can only say that it's one of the most difficult jobs in the world. I made one bad call in 5 days of working the floor and that's the only one anybody remembers. My experience has been that most of them do an outstanding job, probably 98% of the time. You should try it yourself.

I've been the ref at the state final when the match was hill / hill and I was choking far worse than the players. Just praying I wouldn't have to make a tough call or that if I did, I'd get it right. It's much harder than playing the match.

Brian in VA
 
That's horrifying about the ref not realizing he was going for solids and then saying "well I can't reverse it". Not reversing calls makes sense in some cases where players are just gonna cry forever about getting the short end of it... but when the ref makes an OBVIOUS blunder that neither player would defend, there's gotta be an exception.

The next example I'm not so sure about. It's not meaningful or useful practice, but the point of the rule is you can't hit balls around. Maybe because it's a distraction. A guy knocking a ball in the hole (whether he's practicing or just casually one-handing it) would distract me, a little. I dunno that I'd expect ball in hand for it.

If I'm aware of a no-practice rule, I'm definitely not going to knock a ball into the pocket and I'd feel nervous about even allowing the tip of the stick to touch a ball. I'd just lay my stick down to be safe.
 
gromulan said:
God the officiating in the amateur event is HORRIBLE with a capital wow!

I happened to stop in to watch for a bit and caught one of the women's games. So clearly one of the girls (girl A) had ran stripes to the eight and missed it, so the other player (girl B) is slowly taking down the solids, but the table was a little messed up so she's been playing some safeties too. However girl A is actually doing a good job of preventing her from getting any easy run out chances from her safeties and is keeping the balls fairly tied up. So this goes on for a bit and finally girl A leaves girl B where she's in a bit of a predicament and it's going to be quite hard for her not to leave girl A some kind of a shot at the eight.

Annnnnd all of a sudden a ref appears out of nowhere like a ninja and declares the game a stalemate because neither player had been 'advancing their position' enough. I mean the poor girl almost vomited when he said it too. 5000 pool players in the room and the only person who could possibly see a stalemate in that situation is the guy who's reffing? How does that happen?


But then we have a men's match where dude A is playing a safety, but the cue ball's a little close to the object ball so dude B calls the ref. So dude A hits the ball well and just trickles up to the 4-ball. It hits a rail, no problem, so it's all good. "Foul", calls the ref.

"Foul? For what?" says dude A.
"You hit the 4-ball," says the ref.
"Yes, I'M SOLIDS!"
"Oh," says the ref. "Well I can't change my call now that I've made it. Sorry." Then he gives the dude B the cue ball and walks away!

That one actually resolved itself okay because dude B just put the cue ball back where it was and shot like the ref had never been there, which was pretty classy.

And then the kicker. So it's the 25th game deep in the team tournament, there is only the one table going and the two players are trading safeties. Surrounding them are all the empty tables and various spectators. So dude C hits a two-rail kick on a ball and, while he didn't execute it perfectly he did leave a shot where dude D can put him in a fair bit of trouble.

So dude C walks a couple of tables over to get out of dude D's way, and stands next to one of the empty tables. As he does, he casually taps the cue ball on the empty table one-handed with the tip of his cue and knocks it gently into the pocket. The ball travels maybe three inches.

So here comes ninja ref. "Foul! Ball in hand for dude D! You were practicing on an adjacent table during your game!"

Well so obviously pandemonium erupts, players are screaming for the head official, the place goes nuts. Finally the head ref comes over and actually reverses the original call! Most LOL of all was the reasoning. He said that what dude C did actually was a foul (can you believe that shit?), but that the ref should not have come over and called it as he did, as fouls can only be called by refs when one player or another has requested them to watch a shot.

Now bear in mind that I stopped in to watch maybe half a dozen games. I can only imagine what kind of stuff I didn't see. Wow.
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Well, our team only had to call a referee over a few times in all our matches. We must have had the good referees, they made good calls on all the hits. I've seen a few bad calls over the years but mostly, I think they do a pretty good job.
 
stuckart said:
2nd, I witnessed a friend shooting a BIH shot where he had to combo the 4 into the 13 ball and move it down table. The cueball was 2 inches off the rail and he informed the ref he was going to draw the cueball into the rail. He shoots the shot and the 13 goes straight down the table but doesn't hit a rail. The cueball drew back hit the rail and rolled up 4 inches and froze to the 4 ball. The Ref called foul and picked up the cueball. Everyone exclaimed that the cueball hit the rail but the ref said, "Sorry I didn't see that and the 13 did not hit a rail." and handed the cueball to his opponent. The opponent took ball in hand and ran out. Everyone was just sick about it!
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You must have been watching my Team match two years ago! That is nearly identical with my outcome except my ref told the chief ref I went rail first into my ball. Of course I drove my opponents ball nearly the full length of the table (didn't touch a rail). I asked the ref how I could possibly go rail first into my ball (two inches off the rail), freeze the cueball to my object ball and still drive my opponents ball all the way up table. His answer made me laugh so hard, I didn't care I lost the game. All the spectators around the table saw the good hit and told him so! Luckily, our team won the match anyway. It's just so sad!

I agree the "refs" are doing the best they can. Even with the extra training they receive during the Nationals. Too bad more older, perhaps more experienced, players can not be urged to become a "ref" to help the situation out. There are some benefits.

Lyn
 
After every event, I am sure there are going to be bad ref stories. Out of the thousands of calls over the week I am sure there are going to be a few missed calls. The thing to remember is that most of the refs are volunteers who get a little more than their rooms paid for. These guys and girls are by no means profesionals (Not in any of the league systems as far as I know) I think everyone should remember this before complaining about the small percentage of mistakes made by the VOLUNTEERS. Just my .02
 
Brian in VA said:
As someone who has reffed at the state and national tournament level, I can only say that it's one of the most difficult jobs in the world. I made one bad call in 5 days of working the floor and that's the only one anybody remembers. My experience has been that most of them do an outstanding job, probably 98% of the time. You should try it yourself.

I've been the ref at the state final when the match was hill / hill and I was choking far worse than the players. Just praying I wouldn't have to make a tough call or that if I did, I'd get it right. It's much harder than playing the match.

Brian in VA
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I used to ump softball to make a little extra spending money but experiences like this made me quit.

Mike
 
Brian in VA said:
As someone who has reffed at the state and national tournament level, I can only say that it's one of the most difficult jobs in the world. I made one bad call in 5 days of working the floor and that's the only one anybody remembers. My experience has been that most of them do an outstanding job, probably 98% of the time. You should try it yourself.

I've been the ref at the state final when the match was hill / hill and I was choking far worse than the players. Just praying I wouldn't have to make a tough call or that if I did, I'd get it right. It's much harder than playing the match.

Brian in VA
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I've done it plenty of times too. My complaint is less about the people who actually do the job and more about those who train them, because it's pretty clear that their training program is atrocious. You can tell that by watching one reffed shot and seeing where and how the guy positions himself (or herself).
 
A good friend just got back and I was talking with him today. He placed 65th in the men's singles. In his last match, he was down 4-3 (in a race to 5) when his oponent miscued and scratched, and then raked the table. He moved all the balls. My friend called a ref over, thinking he was going to be awarded the game for unsportsmanlike conduct, and the ref gave him ball in hand because the player moved two or more balls. LOL, ball in hand on a completely rearranged table! He warned my friend he would be disqualified if he did not accept the ruling without further argument. He was boiling, lost that game and the match and ended his run at 65th. Geesh, no telling how far he could have gone, a pity.
 
rayjay said:
A good friend just got back and I was talking with him today. He placed 65th in the men's singles. In his last match, he was down 4-3 (in a race to 5) when his oponent miscued and scratched, and then raked the table. He moved all the balls. My friend called a ref over, thinking he was going to be awarded the game for unsportsmanlike conduct, and the ref gave him ball in hand because the player moved two or more balls. LOL, ball in hand on a completely rearranged table! He warned my friend he would be disqualified if he did not accept the ruling without further argument. He was boiling, lost that game and the match and ended his run at 65th. Geesh, no telling how far he could have gone, a pity.
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Piss poor call here!
 
CreeDo said:
That's horrifying about the ref not realizing he was going for solids and then saying "well I can't reverse it". Not reversing calls makes sense in some cases where players are just gonna cry forever about getting the short end of it... but when the ref makes an OBVIOUS blunder that neither player would defend, there's gotta be an exception.

The next example I'm not so sure about. It's not meaningful or useful practice, but the point of the rule is you can't hit balls around. Maybe because it's a distraction. A guy knocking a ball in the hole (whether he's practicing or just casually one-handing it) would distract me, a little. I dunno that I'd expect ball in hand for it.

If I'm aware of a no-practice rule, I'm definitely not going to knock a ball into the pocket and I'd feel nervous about even allowing the tip of the stick to touch a ball. I'd just lay my stick down to be safe.
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In the latter situation a good referee would have given the player a warning. That's it. A referee must be able to use some judgement. My feeling has always been that a match should be decided on the table by the players. Not off the table by a referee. The best referee does not bring attention to himself.
 
jay helfert said:
In the latter situation a good referee would have given the player a warning. That's it. A referee must be able to use some judgement. My feeling has always been that a match should be decided on the table by the players. Not off the table by a referee. The best referee does not bring attention to himself.
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Jay-

I like the way you think.

As a softball umpire for 40 years, I completely agree. I have had many disagreements over the years. I have had less than 10 ejections in about 12000 games. Most of those due to fighting among players on the field.Some of those I should have seen coming and headed off at the pass.

The official is not the game-the official is the steward of the game assuring a level playing field for contestants. Occaisionally you are required to be the sherriff-most often you can be an avid fan with the best seat in the house.

Often good people skills and common sense problem resolution abilities are more important than strict application of rules by rote. Using rules to unduly punish a contestant is out of line. Changing a call or admitting error can sometimes be the best call-sometimes hard to do in our 'don't show me up' world.

Jay-you get it.

Take care
 
rayjay said:
A good friend just got back and I was talking with him today. He placed 65th in the men's singles. In his last match, he was down 4-3 (in a race to 5) when his oponent miscued and scratched, and then raked the table. He moved all the balls. My friend called a ref over, thinking he was going to be awarded the game for unsportsmanlike conduct, and the ref gave him ball in hand because the player moved two or more balls. LOL, ball in hand on a completely rearranged table! He warned my friend he would be disqualified if he did not accept the ruling without further argument. He was boiling, lost that game and the match and ended his run at 65th. Geesh, no telling how far he could have gone, a pity.
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Um, yeah.
If that happened to me, Instant Disqualification and a request to never come back to the tournament cause i laid a ref out with the butt of the cue.

Stick idiots in positions of power and this is the result.
 
I am still trying to figure out in a tournament of over 1300 players, I go 4 wins, 2 losses in my matches and had to play the same guy twice.
 
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